Newbie Cider Help

[AussieDamo]

Hi gents,

I'm sure you get these posts constantly from panicked new Cider makers and this one will be no different haha.

The problem: No bubbles through airlock.

Just a preface as I am an Aussie all the measurements etc. in the details will be in Metric

The details: I grabbed two 50L fermenters and all the appropriate gear from my local homebrew shop a few days back. Did lots of reading on here and how to guides on cider making before setting off as well. In any case, instead of going to the expense of getting fresh orchard pressed apples/juice (wrong season here as well) I decided for my first batch that I'd try go smaller/cheaper due to the almost certainty of something going awry first time round.

-50L Fermenter
-10L of good quality organic, pasteurised, preservative free Apple Juice
-Cider/Champagne yeast
-Yeast nutrient
-added a little bit of dextroxe initially to get the potential abv to around 8%
-It's winter (actually just gone spring but still not overly warm here in my part of Aus) so I bought a heating pad and insulation jacket to ensure the temp would stay around 18-22 (celcius).

I sterilised, added juice and yeast nutrient to the fermenter, rehydrated the dry yeast in cooled, previously boiled water. The yeast had been well taken care of in terms of refrigeration and I let it come to room temperature before added to water. There was not a lot of movement/action at this stage which may be an omen. The water went cloudy and thicker but there wasn't any movement or puffing like i've seen in vids etc. After stirring and leaving to stand for 20 mins or so I pitched the Yeast and sealed the fermenter. The standard two chamber airlock seems to be in order as the water is uneven (implying that the seal is good due to the pressure difference?).

This was Lunchtime Friday. It's now Sunday night here in Melbourne and I have not spotted one bubble. I've triple checked the seal with the squeeze test and it all seems to be in order.I've got the fermenter in a dark shed which is insulated. I've got a stick on thermometer reading at 19 or so degrees (Celcius) but it was reading quite high (26C) after the first night as I think I probably shouldn't have had the heating pad on. I've been much more diligent keeping it in the good range since. Chance I've cooked/killed the yeast?

All this worrying aside, I can here a hiss when putting my ear to the Fermenter and my curiosity got the better of me and I quickly opened it up to have a look before and it has gone cloudy (it was clear/filtered juice) and I spotted active bubbling. Am I simply panicking? Is there something I can check or would it be worth pitching again after the fluctuations in temp?

Apologies for the essay gents! Please ask me clarify anything if it doesn't quite make sense.

Cheers,

Damo

 

[phug]

Having 40 litres of space to fill will make it difficult to get airlock activity going but fortunately that won't impact whether it ferments or not.
Te cloudiness and hissing bubbling are all indicators that fermentation is active.

Because of the size of the fermenter you'll want to bottle as soon as it's done/ clear( make sure it's done, use your hydrometer over several days to be sure)

 

[BlackInk]

Yes, you need a smaller fermenter.

 

[wilson42203]

Or more cider.

 

[jsiddall]

If you can see/hear bubbling then fermenting is progressing fine and you have a leak somewhere in your fermenter. Squeeze testing really tells you nothing because a large change in pressure will not be affected by a small leak.

Also, a hydrometer is a sure way to monitor sugar levels (and thus fermentation) and is essential equipment for monitoring ferment progress.

 

[AussieDamo]

If you can see/hear bubbling then fermenting is progressing fine and you have a leak somewhere in your fermenter. Squeeze testing really tells you nothing because a large change in pressure will not be affected by a small leak.

Also, a hydrometer is a sure way to monitor sugar levels (and thus fermentation) and is essential equipment for monitoring ferment progress.

Ok gotcha. To do a Hydrometer test now would mean having to open the fermenter right? I know this a controversial topic but will opening it to do a Hydro reading effect the process? How often should the Hydro test be done?

Also, I have acquired a 15L demi john to rack off into for secondary ferment once it has all but ceased in this current vessel which will hopefully avoid some of the issues described above.

Cheers

 

[jsiddall]

Ok gotcha. To do a Hydrometer test now would mean having to open the fermenter right? I know this a controversial topic but will opening it to do a Hydro reading effect the process? How often should the Hydro test be done?

As long as you have active fermentation (bubbling) you do not need to be worried about oxidation. The CO2 from the active ferment will rapidly displace any oxygen you introduce.

You need to be worried only after fermentation ends, but by then you should have racked to your demijohn with very little headspace, an airlock and some sulfites.

 

[AussieDamo]

As long as you have active fermentation (bubbling) you do not need to be worried about oxidation. The CO2 from the active ferment will rapidly displace any oxygen you introduce.

You need to be worried only after fermentation ends, but by then you should have racked to your demijohn with very little headspace, an airlock and some sulfites.

Ok cheers for the advice mate.

Just a quick one about carbonation and flavour. When I have finished the 2nd ferment in the Demi-John and am ready to bottle I have garnered that I have a couple of options here for both taste augmenting and carbing.

Taste: If the taste is rather dry but not that sweet/apple-y I can add non-fermenting sugar (corn syrup) or sweetner (Xylitol, Stevia etc.) right? But that bring sweetness but won't bring any of the apple flavour right?

If I was to use Apple Juice concentrate that would start the ferment again in the bottle but this in turn would also take away some of the sweetness due to the sugar in the Apple Juice being being eaten by the yeast? Advice here? I have a bottle of Apple Schnapps essence (non-fermentable) would that do the trick for flavour perhaps (if it needs it)?

Carbing: As I see it (as a complete beginner) I have a few options here: add some dextrose to the demi-john just before bottling so the sugar mix is even for each bottle or add the dextrose to each bottle? How do we feel about this? How long (ball park) and what sort of dextrose quantity would be needed to carb these badboys up? Volume would be 10L - Racking lees = 8L-ish??.

or adding pre-made carbing drops to each bottle? see below

All you blokes are very helpful so it's much appreciated.

 

[jsiddall]

Corn syrup is fermentable so you can't use that.

Sweet and bottle carbonated can only happen by pasteurizing or refrigerating.

 

[AussieDamo]

Corn syrup is fermentable so you can't use that.

Sweet and bottle carbonated can only happen by pasteurizing or refrigerating.

Sorry mate, could you elaborate on this a little bit. I don't think I quite get it haha sorry!

 

[jsiddall]

Sorry mate, could you elaborate on this a little bit. I don't think I quite get it haha sorry!

The problem is that yeast will eat any residual sugar meaning if you want to bottle carbonate you need healthy yeast in the bottle but then you need to stop it from fermenting dry so you have some sweetness. The common ways to accomplish that are to kill the yeast with heat (pasteurization) or halt it with very cold temperatures (refrigeration).

 

[AussieDamo]

The problem is that yeast will eat any residual sugar meaning if you want to bottle carbonate you need healthy yeast in the bottle but then you need to stop it from fermenting dry so you have some sweetness. The common ways to accomplish that are to kill the yeast with heat (pasteurization) or halt it with very cold temperatures (refrigeration).

Hmmm so essentially I need to prime the bottles with a fermentable sugar to carbonate and then stop (via refrigeration) the bottle fermentation at a certain point (no idea when that would be) to stop the yeast consuming the rest of the sugar/sweetness?

In this case, would it simply be best to use a non-fermentable sweetener to taste before bottling and take into account some added dryness due to the added fermentable sugar that will be eaten by the yeast to carbonate once bottled?

 

[Maylar]

Hmmm so essentially I need to prime the bottles with a fermentable sugar to carbonate and then stop (via refrigeration) the bottle fermentation at a certain point (no idea when that would be) to stop the yeast consuming the rest of the sugar/sweetness?

In this case, would it simply be best to use a non-fermentable sweetener to taste before bottling and take into account some added dryness due to the added fermentable sugar that will be eaten by the yeast to carbonate once bottled?

The simplest and safest path is to let it ferment dry then sweeten with something unfermentable (I use Xylitol) and prime for carb. Or, if your batch size is small enough that you can refrigerate after bottling, sweeten and prime with fermentable sugar like FAJC and stuff them in the fridge when they're carbonated.

 

[Brian77095]

AussieDamo,

You have some options here. There are some good reads in this section on how to do this in detail but, here are your options as I see them.

Easy ways.
Use fermentable sugar to bottle as is. If someone wants a little sweeter add some sprite to the glass just before you pour.

Sweeten with a NON fermentable Xylitol or others... then bottle with fermentable sugars.

Harder ways to do it (in my opinion)
Sweeten with fermentables and bottle. Open a bottle after a week or so and then pasteurize once you get to the desired sweetness. There is a very good thread here on how to do this.

Lots of ways to get to were you want to be you just have to pick one and see if it works for you.

Keep us updated on how it works out!

 

[AussieDamo]

AussieDamo,

You have some options here. There are some good reads in this section on how to do this in detail but, here are your options as I see them.

Easy ways.
Use fermentable sugar to bottle as is. If someone wants a little sweeter add some sprite to the glass just before you pour.

Sweeten with a NON fermentable Xylitol or others... then bottle with fermentable sugars.

Harder ways to do it (in my opinion)
Sweeten with fermentables and bottle. Open a bottle after a week or so and then pasteurize once you get to the desired sweetness. There is a very good thread here on how to do this.

Lots of ways to get to were you want to be you just have to pick one and see if it works for you.

Keep us updated on how it works out!

Thanks heaps guys. I appreciate the advice and support and the patience shown to my newbie questions haha.

BTW so does anyone have an opinion on the carb drops I attached the photos of on the last page? yay? Nay? Apple juice concentrate as both a sweetner and primer? The Apple Schnapps essence I mentioned?

 

[bernardsmith]

Carbonation drops give you a fixed and known amount of fermentable sugar which means that you have a fixed and known volume (and so pressure) of CO2. Too much pressure and you will pop the caps (if you are lucky) or create bottle bombs - which result in flying shards of glass.

My background is home wine making (not brewing) and wine makers - at least all the wine makers I know - would argue that stopping fermentation by chilling is mythical. As soon as you bring a bottle of your cider to room temperature fermentation will take off again. I also make bread and routinely refrigerate the dough (sourdough and regular)-chilling yeast has absolutely no real impact on the yeast . Heat kills yeast , not cold. The only effective way to inhibit fermentation is to rack your cider off the yeast and IF you have allowed the cider to age long enough (4 - 6 months) , racking every two months then you can add K-meta and K-sorbate. The K-meta will inhibit fermentation and the sorbate will prevent any live cells from budding (reproducing). But, adding those two stabilizers will mean that ANY sugar you then add will add to the sweetness and not to the alcohol and that means that your cider will be still and not carbonated. So, the way to carbonate that cider is to add CO2 directly. Pasteurization is also possible - but if the apple juice is worth anything by way of flavor then adding heat will spoil it. so yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance.
Good luck, Mate..

 

[jsiddall]

My background is home wine making (not brewing) and wine makers - at least all the wine makers I know - would argue that stopping fermentation by chilling is mythical. As soon as you bring a bottle of your cider to room temperature fermentation will take off again.

Yes, very true. To clarify what I said earlier: if you use refrigeration you need to keep the bottles refrigerated until you drink them.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks heaps guys. I appreciate the advice and support and the patience shown to my newbie questions haha.

BTW so does anyone have an opinion on the carb drops I attached the photos of on the last page? yay? Nay? Apple juice concentrate as both a sweetner and primer? The Apple Schnapps essence I mentioned?

Dunno about the schnapps stuff, but I use this in most of my ciders:

http://www.naturesflavors.com/organic-apple-cider-flavor-concentrate/p60823/

A tiny bit is all it takes - like 1/4 tsp per gallon.

 

[AussieDamo]

Hi gents,

Just quick question here. I know it is a contentious subject about the pros and cons but seeming though, via my work, I am influenced by the wineworld and racking is standard procedure so I have racked my cider into a Secondary 15L Demi-John. My question is, at this point in time is there anything I need to do/add etc. before I leave it to sit for a period and then begin to bottle? When should I start worrying about flavouring (if required) and will leaving it in the secondary for longer (after racking it off the lees in the primary) give me anymore clarity or can that only be achieving with fining agents?

When I do bottle and begin to prime for bottle carbonation will there be enough dormant yeast in the Cider to begin consuming the sugars and begin ferment/C02 production?

Any and all help would be much appreciated.

 

[Maylar]

I am a firm believer in doing a secondary. I have had cider take on a "yeasty" flavor when left on the lees for too long. Typically I let primary run until below 1.010 then rack.

What to do now depends on your goals. The one time that I added fruit to a cider I added it to secondary and let that finish dry then racked again for aging. Some people add spices or whatever at this point too. If this is your first rodeo, I'd let it ride and do traditional. You can break it up into smaller batches at bottling time and experiment with flavors then if you like.

I always add pectic enzyme in primary and my ciders clear without any fining agents. I can't advise as to alternatives.

People have reported letting cider age for months and still having enough yeast to bottle carbonate.

This is a small batch after secondary - note there's about 1/4" of lees in the jugs.

 

[AussieDamo]

I am a firm believer in doing a secondary. I have had cider take on a "yeasty" flavor when left on the lees for too long. Typically I let primary run until below 1.010 then rack.

What to do now depends on your goals. The one time that I added fruit to a cider I added it to secondary and let that finish dry then racked again for aging. Some people add spices or whatever at this point too. If this is your first rodeo, I'd let it ride and do traditional. You can break it up into smaller batches at bottling time and experiment with flavors then if you like.

I always add pectic enzyme in primary and my ciders clear without any fining agents. I can't advise as to alternatives.

People have reported letting cider age for months and still having enough yeast to bottle carbonate.

This is a small batch after secondary - note there's about 1/4" of lees in the jugs.

Thanks for the info Maylar. Much appreciated! The clarity of the Cider is not really that big of deal to me so I won't worry about fining agents. Just out of curiosity what does the peptic enzyme do in the original process? Obviously you are using it for clarity but how does it achieve this and does it effect fermentation speed, taste etc.?

In term of residual yeast for bottle carbing, I won't be ageing mine for months so that shouldn't be an issue.

And yes this definitely is my first rodeo, hence the small batch size 10L, so I will just go au naturale to see what a base standard cider from the ingredients/process I used turns out like. Cheers

PS when I get home I will upload a pic of the recently racked cider in the secondary just for a point of reference.

 

[Maylar]

Pectin is the stuff in fruit that they make jams and jellies from. In wine or cider it shows up as a haze. Pectic enzyme reacts with it somehow and makes it fall out of solution. It works really well, and doesn't affect the ferment or flavor.

 

[AussieDamo]

Pectin is the stuff in fruit that they make jams and jellies from. In wine or cider it shows up as a haze. Pectic enzyme reacts with it somehow and makes it fall out of solution. It works really well, and doesn't affect the ferment or flavor.

Awesome.

Too late to use it now? Ferment is essentially over.

 

[Maylar]

Won't do much now. Needs to be put in at the beginning. I ran out once and added it a week into primary and that batch ended up cloudy. A few things to always have on hand - pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, one-step cleaner, star san sanitizer... cider makers hafta be prepared for the next batch!

Hope yours turns out delicious.

 

[AussieDamo]

Won't do much now. Needs to be put in at the beginning. I ran out once and added it a week into primary and that batch ended up cloudy. A few things to always have on hand - pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, one-step cleaner, star san sanitizer... cider makers hafta be prepared for the next batch!

Hope yours turns out delicious.

Thanks brother! Appreciate the help!

 

[Yooper]

No, you can put pectic enzyme in now. It's fine to do it, although perhaps slightly more effective earlier. Dissolve it in some cider or water, stir well, and add it to the top of the carboy. You can gently swirl if you feel you have to, but I don't. hopefully, it will help break up the pectins and clear the cider.

 

[Maylar]

No, you can put pectic enzyme in now. It's fine to do it, although perhaps slightly more effective earlier. Dissolve it in some cider or water, stir well, and add it to the top of the carboy. You can gently swirl if you feel you have to, but I don't. hopefully, it will help break up the pectins and clear the cider.

Have you had it work well even late in the process? In my one experience, it was not as effective as using it at the start.

 

[Yooper]

Have you had it work well even late in the process? In my one experience, it was not as effective as using it at the start.

Yes, I have had good luck with it, even right before bottling.

 

[AussieDamo]

Quick question for you wonderful people, when I bottle and prime for bottle carbonation, how much room do I want to leave in the neck? As in, when do I want to stop filling to take into account CO2 headspace etc.

Also, how will I know when carbonation has adequately occurred?

Like I said in the opener us Aussies run a Metric ship over here so the bottles Im using are 750ml PET. (I think that's roughly 25 floz but that could be wrong haha)

 

[Maylar]

Fill them up to the neck, about the same as what they'd have if filled with Coke. You can feel carbonation build by squeezing a PET bottle - as the CO2 builds up the bottle gets harder to squeeze.

Or...

Make a carbonation monitor like I did -