New England IPA hater

[Hwk-I-St8]

Yeah, but they are actually styles that have been around long before us. NEIPA is a fad.

Well it's a pretty long standing one since they've been around for almost a decade now.

If you're waiting for them to go away like most fads, don't hold your breath. They have extremely wide appeal from a flavor profile perspective. I don't think they're going anywhere.

If people have tasted them (and more than one or two examples) and don't care for them, more power to ya. I don't care for sours but I don't dis on the style or the people who drink them.

If you dislike them because they're popular (like the backlash against the Cowboys in the 70's when they were dubbed "America's Team"...that's just being petty and foolish.

If you don't like the looks...I sure hope you trash on a hefe the same way.

Have you haters looked at a style guide....there's a boatload of styles and substyles for a reason. There's no reason to trash on any of them. You can say NEIPAs are specifically in the style guide, but rest assured they will be eventually (perhaps by a different name). They aren't going anywhere and a huge segment of the beer drinking population finds them delicious. What in the heck is wrong with that?

"OH, no, there's a new substyle in town that tons of people love. Put an end to that NOW!"

 

[SlitheryDee]

I've never had one. Can't find 'em at all around here. I might have to brew one if I ever want to try it. I don't find the idea of hazy beer disgusting at all. I must say I haven't really had a regular IPA that I liked though, so I won't hold my breath for the NE version.

 

[rhys333]

Dislike them on what principle? lol They use too many hops? So then you don't like any DIPA because NEIPAs aren't the only beers that have a good amount of hops.

I find it funny that people are actually mad at the amount of ingredients breweries use. What about a barrel aged stout with an OG of 1.100? You upset about the amount of grains needed to achieve that OG?

The next sentence in my previous post that you quoted explains why I dislike NEIPA. I said nothing about DIPA or stout, and I'm certainly not mad or upset about ingredient amounts. You set up a straw man argument right there.

 

[rhys333]

A question to those who don't like the looks of a NEIPA:

Do you feel the same way about witbiers and Hefeweizen styles? Those are really cloudy looking.

The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal. The naturally cloudy ones would be fine, but the pea-soupers are a bit contrived.

 

[murphyslaw]

I've never had one. Can't find 'em at all around here. I might have to brew one if I ever want to try it. I don't find the idea of hazy beer disgusting at all. I must say I haven't really had a regular IPA that I liked though, so I won't hold my breath for the NE version.

I know a few people who really don't like IPAs but do like NE IPAs. I think the lower bitterness appeals to them.

The next sentence in my previous post that you quoted explains why I dislike NEIPA. I said nothing about DIPA or stout, and I'm certainly not mad or upset about ingredient amounts. You set up a straw man argument right there.

Your words were "Senseless excess and waste, but to each their own." He probably took that to mean excess and wasteful amounts of hops. That's how I interpreted it.

The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal. The naturally cloudy ones would be fine, but the pea-soupers are a bit contrived.

Do you think the proteins and yeast in hefes and wits are mistakes? They add to flavor and mouthfeel just like the NE IPAs. Kimmich has also explained that the haze isn't the goal, but rather a byproduct of having an unfiltered, fresh, heavily hopped beer.

If you're basing your NEIPA opinions on crappy examples where brewers are trying to make a beer cloudy and then just calling it a NEIPA, it seems silly to judge the style by them.


______________________________

I don't think its a fad. I was blown away the first time I had a NE IPA from Tree House. Never tasted anything like it. In fact, my first thought upon trying it was that it was proof that craft beer will continue to grow. If breweries like Tree House can create such fantastic and innovative beers, the future of beer is very bright.

 

[murphyslaw]

I'm going to MA Wednesday and plan to be at Tree House Thursday or Friday. My brother-in-law also picked up some Sip of Sunshine for me. :rockin:

 

[TheAleRunner]

Lots of "get off my lawn" in here.

NEIPAs are pretty much all I drink these days. They check all the boxes for me. Find a way to make the mouthfeel, huge hop aroma and juicy flavor the same, but crystal clear, and I'll happily drink it too. The irrational hatred of a beer style because it's not clear is pretty dumb if you ask me. But different strokes...

 

[xCSx]

You're right, not fair....which is why I'm interested in any recommendations for more widely distributed examples to try (that I have some chance of finding in NJ) that are a bit less extreme/fruity.

Grognerd, that looks awesome. Way better than my glass....too bad you're not closer, I'd trade with you.

Try magnify beers, brotherton IPA, troon, etc

 

[murphyslaw]

I think this debate will never go away. I think a major key to the style is extreme freshness. I would try to drink these within 2 weeks of packaging, and I'd view 4 weeks as an expiration date. I don't think you're going to find tree house beers in Alberta anytime soon.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal. The naturally cloudy ones would be fine, but the pea-soupers are a bit contrived.

I would say disregard the brewers who are putting additives in, to intentionally make the beer hazy.

These brewers, to me, are similar to the crazy brewers in the early 2000's that were making the ridiculous bitter bombs during the IPA craze.

During this time I was already an ipa fan, first English IPA's...then American ipa's. But you had TONS of brewers trying to out do each other on bitterness and ibu's. No balance at all.

Of course I didn't take this to represent all ipa's. But it did make it tough to order a good one. Eventually, with American IPA's and later West Coast IPA's, the ridiculous brewers dropped off.

NeIPA's are definitely a different flavor profile. They are chorus between the grains, yeast and oils of the hops.

While West Coast Ipa's are a completely different flavor presentation. Instead of all ingredients working together (not easy to do), West Coast IPA'S are like a well designed entree. With everything on the plate complimenting, and offsetting other flavors to provide a desirable balance.

Two different approaches and I would argue both valid. One is like eating Eric Ripert's Sea bass with port sauce (if you've never tried this recipe look it up...such great balance!). While the other drink is like biting into a fabulously ripe peach. Two very wonderful things, and I would not be able to pick which I liked more, nor would I believe that was a fruitful task to even try.

I don't judge peaches by the poorest of examples, and I don't judge fish by grocery store fish sticks. Though I can understand a person may not like either/both...but it's a mistake to judge by the worst examples you can find.

Anyway...cheers all!

 

[rhys333]

Your words were "Senseless excess and waste, but to each their own." He probably took that to mean excess and wasteful amounts of hops. That's how I interpreted it.

I do mean excess and wasteful amounts of hops. It's my opinion on the subject of NEIPA.

Do you think the proteins and yeast in hefes and wits are mistakes? They add to flavor and mouthfeel just like the NE IPAs. Kimmich has also explained that the haze isn't the goal, but rather a byproduct of having an unfiltered, fresh, heavily hopped beer.

If you're basing your NEIPA opinions on crappy examples where brewers are trying to make a beer cloudy and then just calling it a NEIPA, it seems silly to judge the style by them.

I answered an open question with facts and nothing more. How did we get from there to suppositions about what else I might think and then concluding that I'm making silly judgements?

I think this debate will never go away. I think a major key to the style is extreme freshness. I would try to drink these within 2 weeks of packaging, and I'd view 4 weeks as an expiration date. I don't think you're going to find tree house beers in Alberta anytime soon.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.

 

[day_trippr]

The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal. The naturally cloudy ones would be fine, but the pea-soupers are a bit contrived.

I can appreciate the sentiment, but I'd hazard to say those adjunct-clouded beers aren't true NEIPAs, but instead are poorly conceived clone attempts...



Cheers!

 

[MHBT]

I never brewed a NEIPA but i am gearing up to do so..Can anybody recommend a water profile?

 

[beernutz]

I dislike them on principle. Senseless excess and waste, but each to their own. I also believe beer is more than hops, hops, hops. Just my opinion btw folks, so no need to shout me down.

Edit: missed the "no" in my last sentence.

Is shouting you down what you call it when people disagree with you?

 

[h22lude]

The next sentence in my previous post that you quoted explains why I dislike NEIPA. I said nothing about DIPA or stout, and I'm certainly not mad or upset about ingredient amounts. You set up a straw man argument right there.

You said beers aren't all about hops, which is what I'm guessing your issue is with NEIPAs. You also say it is senseless excess and a waste. To me that implies you think the use of all the hops is a waste. My argument against that is a strong stout uses a lot more grains than other beers so do you think that is senseless excess and a waste too?

No straw man argument. Just using the info you gave us to create an informed assumption.

The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal. The naturally cloudy ones would be fine, but the pea-soupers are a bit contrived.

Some do use adjuncts to make it cloudier but most do not. Trillium and Tree House use grains, hops, water and yeast. The yeast are high flocculating yeasts. The haze is proteins and hop resin from the biotransformation from dry hopping during fermentation.

Your words were "Senseless excess and waste, but to each their own." He probably took that to mean excess and wasteful amounts of hops. That's how I interpreted it.

Exactly!

 

[h22lude]

I do mean excess and wasteful amounts of hops. It's my opinion on the subject of NEIPA.

It is fine that it is your opinion. I'm not telling you not to think that way. What I'm wondering is if you find any other beers to use a wasteful amount of ingredients like grains for the very high OG stouts. I'm not saying this is you but I have found more often than not that people will find reasons to hate something but not apply that same hatred to other things they happen to like. Just using you as an example, you find the amount of hops they use in NEIPA to be a waste but really enjoy the extremely high OG stouts and don't care about the large amount of grains they use for it and in turn use more hops than other stouts to keep the higher OG one balanced.

I really couldn't care less if you don't like NEIPAs or not. Doesn't affect me. I'm just curious as to why. From reading on here and other forums, a lot of the people that don't like NEIPAs haven't tried them because they think the haze is stupid. Which is fine but to me seems like a dumb reason not to try something. I believe you said you tried some and didn't like them which is better than those other people that hate them without trying them.

 

[rhys333]

Collective response...

"Shouting down" is what occured after I posted my reasons for disliking NEIPA (and it's why I posted it because I suspected it would happen after reading earlier posts). Numerous (but not all) commenters focused on challenging my opinion because it differs from theirs, following with false/misleading assertions about what else I might be thinking so that they can knock that down too and hopefully prove their point (straw man arguments). Intended or not, this sort of mob mentality has the effect of silencing anyone that isn't on the bandwagon. I would encourage a little objectivity, self awareness, and respect for differing opinions.

 

[chickypad]

At least for me the problem is not the actual difference of opinion, it's the comments that start getting thrown around that are demeaning or suggesting that someone else's tastes are not legitimate - like saying someone's brewing is senseless, wasteful, excessive. Or someone claiming you're just going with the trend and you're not a real beer person. None of that sounds like respect for different opinions. Of course you'd think I could see the writing on the wall with the first post as these threads always turn out this way, and yet I fall for it every time.

 

[h22lude]

Collective response...

"Shouting down" is what occured after I posted my reasons for disliking NEIPA (and it's why I posted it because I suspected it would happen after reading earlier posts). Numerous (but not all) commenters focused on challenging my opinion because it differs from theirs, following with false/misleading assertions about what else I might be thinking so that they can knock that down too and hopefully prove their point (straw man arguments). Intended or not, this sort of mob mentality has the effect of silencing anyone that isn't on the bandwagon. I would encourage a little objectivity, self awareness, and respect for differing opinions.

But see to me you never posted why you dislike it besides it is wasteful. Sure you said not every beer needs to be about hops, hops, hop..which is fine but then do you not like any IPA? My guess would be you do. So the hops isn't the cause of your dislike.

For me, like I said, I don't care if you dislike NEIPAs. Just give your reason for it and stop trying to find a reason to hate it...like it is senseless excess and waste. To me, that is hating for no reason.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Oh cripes , I thought we were supposed to be talking about beer, styles of beer and what similarities/differences there may be between them.

This is starting to look like the old cable arguments in the audio forums of yesteryear.

Y'all have a good time...and should you start talking about beer again... well, I just may join you


Later--------->

 

[Sbe2]

I never brewed a NEIPA but i am gearing up to do so..Can anybody recommend a water profile?

Here is a start

 

[rawlus]

I'm not at all offended by what others like or don't like. There are plenty of beers and plenty of ways to make beer that a person can pretty much do whatever they want and drink whatever they want.
I'm not an evangelist for the style - I drink all styles of beer, there are some I like more than others, but I don't question the existence of a style just because I don't like it... if someone is making it commercially, I feel it's already validated by others.

I also don't pick on American light lagers like BMC. If people want to drink those it's no skin off my back. Life is too short to get hung up on what other people like or don't like....

I also don't start a post bashing s beer style just to get a rise out of the peanut gallery, it's borderline trolling. If I started a post on nitro beers and why does anyone drink them and they taste flat and one dimensional and beer is meant to dance on the tongue and they have no balance or hop aroma.. I'd expect defenders of nitro beers to come out and bash me...

 

[rhys333]

I'd expect defenders of nitro beers to come out and bash me...

...which would mean they were borderline trolling you and your thread. Imagine someone starting a NEIPA lovers thread. Critics descend on it, questioning anyone that loves NEIPA and pressuring them to defend their opinion. Bashing you for your thoughts on a beer style is reasonable?

 

[rawlus]

Exactly my point

 

[murphyslaw]

Its not "shouting down" when people disagree with you. Nobody has banned you. Nobody has suggested that you shouldn't participate in the discussion. Quite the opposite, people are engaging with you and challenging the factual basis for your opinion. And I think that's key: they're not criticizing your opinion, they're criticizing the facts upon which your opinion is based and the logic you're using to reach your conclusions.

For example:

I dislike them on principle. Senseless excess and waste, but each to their own.

The next sentence in my previous post that you quoted explains why I dislike NEIPA. I said nothing about DIPA or stout, and I'm certainly not mad or upset about ingredient amounts. You set up a straw man argument right there.

I do mean excess and wasteful amounts of hops. It's my opinion on the subject of NEIPA.

????????????????

I answered an open question with facts and nothing more. How did we get from there to suppositions about what else I might think and then concluding that I'm making silly judgements?

No, you didn't. You said, "The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal." That's false. NEIPAs are not "deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal", nor do they use cloud-inducing adjuncts for the purpose of making them cloudy. They are cloudy for basically the same reasons as the wits and hefes--proteins, yeasts, and hop oils.

From what you've said you've tried, its clear that you've only tried crap examples. Yes, I think its silly to judge a type of beer based on a few crappy examples.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.

I wasn't suggesting anything other than what I said: extreme freshness is key with NEIPAs and therefore you're unlikely to find the best examples 2,500 miles away from the source.

 

[rhys333]

...people are engaging with you and challenging the factual basis for your opinion. And I think that's key: they're not criticizing your opinion, they're criticizing the facts upon which your opinion is based and the logic you're using to reach your conclusions.

For example:

Lists all my responses on the topic without including the posts I was responding too which would place them in context.

????????????????

What does this mean?

No, you didn't. You said, "The difference is that wits and hefes are naturally cloudy from proteins and low floc yeast. Many NEIPAs are deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal." That's false. NEIPAs are not "deliberately made cloudier with haze-inducing adjuncts for market appeal", nor do they use cloud-inducing adjuncts for the purpose of making them cloudy. They are cloudy for basically the same reasons as the wits and hefes--proteins, yeasts, and hop oils.

From what you've said you've tried, its clear that you've only tried crap examples. Yes, I think its silly to judge a type of beer based on a few crappy examples.

Which part of my comment is false? Also. Didn't you recently brew a NEIPA with 1 pound of oats and 3/4 pounds of flaked barley/wheat thrown in? No knock on the recipe author in any way, but these are cloud-inducing adjuncts and contradict your argument. You even say in the related post:

I just brewed it a couple weeks ago and its the closes to I've seen to the tree house beers that I've had.

 

[Morrey]

I spent most of my life avoiding IPA's due to the bitterness I associated with that style. On a leap of faith I experimented with a recipe by Braufessor here on HBT. The techniques did use more hops than I have ever used before, but the way I used them made an exceptionally smooth and rounded hop presence with virtually no sharpness. Some seek this bitterness so I see both sides of the argument. Interesting aspect of home brewing is that we have the tools and knowledge to craft virtually any beer we choose not dictated by the tastes some other brewer may choose. I have never had a commercial NE IPA, but based on your description in the OP, mine is nothing as described. Attached is a pic of my NEIPA when I sampled as it was set and forget carbing in the keg.

 

[thedon986]

What does this mean?



Which part of my comment is false? Also. Didn't you recently brew a NEIPA with 1 pound of oats and 3/4 pounds of flaked barley/wheat thrown in? No knock on the recipe author in any way, but these are cloud-inducing adjuncts and contradict your argument. You even say in the related post:

Malted wheat (used in weissbiers and wits) is a malted adjunct and is a cloud inducing malted adjunct, just because it is unmalted it is wrong to use in a recipe?

From BYO: "Oats are low in starch, high in oil and protein and extremely high in beta glucans. As a result, they are not used as a major substitute for malt in the grist. However, they add a smoothness and increased mouthfeel to beers and have become popular as an additive to stouts."

So lingering protein from malted wheat in a weissbier is okay but lingering protein from unmalted oats is wrong. Gotcha.

 

[Mainer]

It's really fashionable to hate on NEIPAs these days. Being in Maine, I get them on every menu in town. As with any style, I've had good ones and bad ones, sometimes from the same breweries.

With the disclaimer that I wasn't wild about Treehouse or Heady Topper and I think Maine Beer Company's Lunch is overrated, there are some really great examples in the market up here. Foundation Epiphany, Bissell Brothers Substance, Austin Street Patina. Sure, the super-haze is a bit of a gimmick to get people to drink it fresh and come back soon for more, but really it's just a style choice. I don't understand why people get so worked up over it.

 

[rhys333]

So lingering protein from malted wheat in a weissbier is okay but lingering protein from unmalted oats is wrong. Gotcha.

I didn't say that. It's clear I'm responding to a previous posters' comments that NEIPAs do not include adjuncts to make them couldy. Stick to the facts please.