New BYO Aussi brewing article

[Danek]

If there is a mass outbreak of botulism poisoning in Australia, please let it be before the Ashes. We need all the help we can get.

 

[reviled]

Also - On the botulism thing, not my links but still interesting none the less, 1ppm equals about 1IBU,

botulism hates hops.

"The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavor from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.
"

Treating or preventing illness growth of Clostridium difficile - Patent Review 6623775
Antimicrobial activity of hops extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori - US Patent 6251461 Claims

 

[The Pol]

If all my wild-ass speculation is correct, you should probably aerate before you pitch, if you're only waiting 24hrs... are you planning to?

Yes... I am letting it chill for 24 hours in a 65F environment. THEN, I am beating it the hell up. Tossing in a starter. Watching it bubble. Drinking it. Posting my findings here.

I am treating it like any other brew, just no chilling it.

 

[remilard]

Also - On the botulism thing, not my links but still interesting none the less, 1ppm equals about 1IBU,

I'm interested in how you equate ppm of beta acids to bitterness in beer.

It is known that beta acids are not particularly soluble in wort, this is why the are ignored in every calculation of bitterness I have seen. What I can't find in the resources I have is exact figures on how soluble beta acids are, just references to the fact that they are so poorly soluble as to be ignorable in calculating bitterness.

If you can justify your claim above then I will gladly agree that C. Botulinum will not grow in hopped wort, assuming the claim in the patent application is correct. However, I suspect you are making some unrealistic assumptions about the solubility of beta acids in wort or perhaps confusing alpha acids for beta acids.

 

[MacBruver]

Yeah, the problem with those patents is this:

6. The method of claim 1, and including the step of adding a surface active agent to a solution in order to solubilize said hop extract prior to adding said hop extract to said food or beverage product.

They add some type of surfactant to get the beta acids in solution.

 

[reviled]

I'm interested in how you equate ppm of beta acids to bitterness in beer.

It is known that beta acids are not particularly soluble in wort, this is why the are ignored in every calculation of bitterness I have seen. What I can't find in the resources I have is exact figures on how soluble beta acids are, just references to the fact that they are so poorly soluble as to be ignorable in calculating bitterness.

If you can justify your claim above then I will gladly agree that C. Botulinum will not grow in hopped wort, assuming the claim in the patent application is correct. However, I suspect you are making some unrealistic assumptions about the solubility of beta acids in wort or perhaps confusing alpha acids for beta acids.

To be honest mate im not too sure, I got that info from the AHB website and thought some people on here might find it usefull..

 

[The Pol]

If I die, I die, then yall can stop speculating. Everyone wins!

 

[remilard]

If C. Botulinum can not grow in no chill wort, then beer drinkers will not get botulism and die.

implies

If beer drinkers do not get botulism and die, C. Botulinum can not grow in no chill wort.

Which logical fallacy did I commit?

 

[The Pol]

If C. Botulinum can not grow in no chill wort, then beer drinkers will not get botulism and die.

implies

If beer drinkers do not get botulism and die, C. Botulinum can not grow in no chill wort.

Which logical fallacy did I commit?

I dont feel comfortable talking about fallacio here...

 

[peas_and_corn]

It's the same logic that says

All dogs have four legs
My cat has four legs
Therefore my cat is a dog

 

[The Pol]

Where can I get some Riwaka??

 

[PoMo]

Yes... I am letting it chill for 24 hours in a 65F environment. THEN, I am beating it the hell up. Tossing in a starter. Watching it bubble. Drinking it. Posting my findings here.

I am treating it like any other brew, just no chilling it.

I'm very interested in the results of your experiment. I'm a member of the Illawarra Brewers Union (the IBUs ) who were the club that popularised this method amongst the Aussie brewers. Most of our members (including the FatGodzilla fella posting in this thread) use no-chill almost exclusively. I have seen a copper coil or two around the place, tho most of them have been covered in oxidation since the drought started. There have been thousands of batches of no-chilled beer produced by our members, one of whom also produces "wort packs" commercially. So far none of us has died of botulism, tho this doesn't, of course, prove that C. botulinum cannot spawn in wort. Perhaps we're lucky, perhaps there is something about the pH, O2, gravity or hop content of wort that inhibits botulinum, perhaps our warm temperate climate means we have a lower incidence of botulinum in the environment?

One bit of advice, if I may, if you're using American malt in your brew, give it an extra long boil. It is my understanding that American malt contains more DMS precursors than EU or AU malts, so you don't want DMS to be forming in the cube while the wort is still hot.

 

[Kaiser]

We would need some biologists who can run these tests in a lab: Can C. Botulinum grow in hopped wort?

It wouldn't be a difficult one to run but it is not the kind of experiment I'm going to make in my kitchen mainly b/c I would need a viable culture of C. Botulinum.

I'm amazed that none of the brewing books on Google books say anything about C. Botulinum. Either an indication that it is not a problem at all or that it has so far not been considered as a problem.

Kai

 

[Fatgodzilla]

If there is a mass outbreak of botulism poisoning in Australia, please let it be before the Ashes. We need all the help we can get.

After we put this South African uprising to bed, we are coming after you Poms ...

(for you uneducated lot, of course we at talking CRICKET !)



It's amazing this little conversation on what I think is a rather trivial matter has taken legs across three continents. Next time Australians make a new popular brewing method , we aint gonna tell nobody !

 

[remilard]

We would need some biologists who can run these tests in a lab: Can C. Botulinum grow in hopped wort?

It wouldn't be a difficult one to run but it is not the kind of experiment I'm going to make in my kitchen mainly b/c I would need a viable culture of C. Botulinum.

Kai

I'm not even sure if the (US) Federal Government has an interest in amateurs performing these experiments, since botulinium is a potential biological warfare agent. On the off chance you got caught trying to produce it, they might not be interested in why.

But I agree, for a qualified biologist this should be trivial.

Don't you have access to the Journal of the ASBC and maybe German Journals? Maybe we are trying to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately my local University Library does not carry brewing (or Food Science) Journals so I'm at a dead end.

 

[remilard]

I'm amazed that none of the brewing books on Google books say anything about C. Botulinum. Either an indication that it is not a problem at all or that it has so far not been considered as a problem.

Kai

I thought about that myself, however this would never be an issue with an commercial brewing practice I am aware of.

Saying "on the off chance that you choose to hot pack wort and leave it sitting around for a while...." in a professional brewing text would be a bit absurd.

 

[The Pol]

In reference to the boil comment... I always boil for 90 minutes, since it is essentially free.

 

[remilard]

See Fix, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. With ale malt and an ale fermentation you can not possibly get detectable DMS in the beer regardless of how you chill the wort.

 

[PoMo]

See Fix, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. With ale malt and an ale fermentation you can not possibly get detectable DMS in the beer regardless of how you chill the wort.

This is a beautiful thing.

On the botulism thing... I've just come across this:

"Microbiology, B.D.
Davis, R. Dulbecco, H.N. Eisen and H.S. Ginsberg, 3rd Ed. 1980."

"Most clostridia produce large amounts of gas (mainly Carbon dioxide and
Hydrogen)."


From a post here:
HOMEBREW Digest #2345 Thu 13 February 1997

So if the cube blows up like a balloon, toss it.

 

[The Pol]

I will be really pleased if I can "no chill" and use that same vessel to ferment in. It will save a lot of time and cleaning of vessels. I also like the fact that the 6 gallon HDPE container has a nice strong handle on it!

Pol

 

[bakins]

I will be really pleased if I can "no chill" and use that same vessel to ferment in. It will save a lot of time and cleaning of vessels. I also like the fact that the 6 gallon HDPE container has a nice strong handle on it!

Does it look strong enough to carry around with the hot wort in it? When I tried with a bucket, I didn't trust moving it around because the walls and bottom seemed really pliable with the hot wort. I didn't whirlpool or anything, just switched off the element and drained, not sure if that matters.

I'm interested in this, bcs even though I use my chill water to clean with, that's 10-20 gallons of water for chilling - just seems like a waste. And those containers are not much more than a bucket...

 

[PoMo]

I will be really pleased if I can "no chill" and use that same vessel to ferment in. It will save a lot of time and cleaning of vessels. I also like the fact that the 6 gallon HDPE container has a nice strong handle on it!

Pol

Mate, most of us don't do this, as it's a difficult task to free your cube of all yeast, trub and krausen ring before filling it with your next batch of hot wort. You'd be looking to clean with caustic soda (lime?) or the like between uses?

Does it look strong enough to carry around with the hot wort in it?

Front page of this site IBU's Home Page you'll see a young Illawarran carrying a cube of hot wort.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Front page of this site IBU's Home Page you'll see a young Illawarran carrying a cube of hot wort.

Don't let them go to that site PoMo, they'll see men brewing in thongs (Australian for casual rubber footwear,, not the undies up your arse thingys) and wonder if that's the next big thing in Australian brewing the world hasn't seen yet !)

You'll also ssee an old bloke carrying a cube that looks 3 qtrs full. He brewed it a month later. Hasn't been seen since though .....

 

[effectrammstein]

Mate, most of us don't do this, as it's a difficult task to free your cube of all yeast, trub and krausen ring before filling it with your next batch of hot wort. You'd be looking to clean with caustic soda (lime?) or the like between uses?



Front page of this site IBU's Home Page you'll see a young Illawarran carrying a cube of hot wort.

Where did you get that machine that is in the picture on the right?

 

[The Pol]

Mate, most of us don't do this, as it's a difficult task to free your cube of all yeast, trub and krausen ring before filling it with your next batch of hot wort. You'd be looking to clean with caustic soda (lime?) or the like between uses?



Front page of this site IBU's Home Page you'll see a young Illawarran carrying a cube of hot wort.

I have consulted another brewer here on HBT about cleaning his 15 gallon HDPE fermentor that was similar. He gave me some tips and said that it was not all that difficult to clean. My container is just a container, there are no small areas where wort or krausen can get lodged. It is not a Jerrican with an "open" handle. The handle is just a solid external handle that mounts to the top of the tank.

Since my "cube" is 6 gallons, the handle and surrounding area will not be in direct contact with the hot wort, so we will see how pliable it gets.

One will never KNOW, unless one tries.

I know, I am going against what Palmer and Papazian say to do... but I am sure that thier ideas flew in the face of conventional wisdom as well.

I may have a copper immersion chiller for sale soon. Check the classifieds.

 

[conpewter]

I'd keep the chiller for when you want to do an IPA... hop aroma/flavor has been a concern.

After fermentation I think you can probably clean it like you would a better-bottle, just fill with hot water and oxyclean. Maybe get a little dentist mirror to look around inside.

 

[The Pol]

I'd keep the chiller for when you want to do an IPA... hop aroma/flavor has been a concern.

After fermentation I think you can probably clean it like you would a better-bottle, just fill with hot water and oxyclean. Maybe get a little dentist mirror to look around inside.

I generally FWH, almost everything now. That removes my late addition hops. That takes care of flavor, as FWH imparts a very complex and full flavor. Now for aroma, the aroma compounds are so volitile, that I will just take care of that in the dry hop.

Cleaning will be very similar to a better bottle, yes.

 

[conpewter]

Makes sense and should work out OK.

I was just reading up on BPA leaching from HDPE at high temp and it seems that really HDPE, thought slightly worse that PET when it comes to leaching is really quite good. #5 plastic (polypropylene) is really good too. You just have to watch out for #7 polycarbonate (which is what my sight glass is made of... hmmm...) as that's the bad one. This was some interesting reading
Our Toxic Plastic - Bisphenol A (BPA) leaching from popular plastics bottles at JoeGoldfarb.com

I don't want to drag your thread off-topic though, just wanted to show that HDPE is a good choice of material for this, especially since it can contract and expand (something a cornie keg would not do)

 

[The Pol]

Thanks... yes, HDPE is really the only material that can both handle the temps and be flexible. It will be fun to try something new.

 

[Beth]

Thanks... yes, HDPE is really the only material that can both handle the temps and be flexible. It will be fun to try something new.

Hi everybody - I've been lurking for a while and learning lots. I've made a few extract batches that turned out pretty well. Now after reading the BYO article, I'm excited to give it a shot. I have a question -

If I'm just planning to let the wort chill overnight would I be better off chilling in my fermenter (6.5 gallon ale pail) or a 5 gallon water jug? Would a coleman collapsing water container work - or are the soft-sides to weak for the hot temps?