NEIPA dont’s

[beervoid]

Torrance 2016:

Ca_55
Mg_19
Na_97
Cl_98
SO_176
Alk_106(HCO3)
Ph_8.2

Quiet a high Na. I've a couple of times its a good idea to have some Na for mouthfeel as well

 

[JAReeves]

It’s a good start for NE Style. I just tend to like 2:1 ration of ca to so

I was going to go into my local HBS and ask this very question.

 

[leesmith]

I was going to go into my local HBS and ask this very question.

Just make sure they know what you are talking about.
My buddy (who didn’t understand water chemistry) took his water to a HBS....they tested the ph of the water and told him he didn’t need anything for his water....meaning acid in the mash....they said his water was fine for what ever he wanted to brew.

Just clarify you are talking about the Chloride to sulfate ratio and not a Calcium to sulfate ratio. While calcium may be related to chloride...the common terminology is Chloride to Sulfate or vice versa.

 

[eugles]

This thread has been exactly what I've been searching for. I recently posted on the homebrewing reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/9ytmju/skipping_biotransformation_dry_hop/) about skipping the biotransformation dry hop. I've been listening to various podcasts and interviews and am starting to think that the actual breweries don't do much of this. Clean yeast harvesting seems like its way more important to them. On a Brulosophy livecast with Scott Janish, he mentioned that in the process of writing his upcoming book on hops, he spoke with a bunch of the big breweries of the style and what really surprised him is the amount of people not doing the biotransformation dry hops. I have to admit, I have never skipped it myself and have gone along with the general NEIPA homebrewer advice i've seen online.

 

[JAReeves]

Just make sure they know what you are talking about.
My buddy (who didn’t understand water chemistry) took his water to a HBS....they tested the ph of the water and told him he didn’t need anything for his water....meaning acid in the mash....they said his water was fine for what ever he wanted to brew.

Just clarify you are talking about the Chloride to sulfate ratio and not a Calcium to sulfate ratio. While calcium may be related to chloride...the common terminology is Chloride to Sulfate or vice versa.

Thank you!

 

[leesmith]

...general NEIPA homebrewer advice i've seen online.

I've learned to take any home brewer's advice with a grain of salt....even mine. Pro brewers have such an advantage. They brew for a living....they brew multiple times a week. Can you imagine the learning curve that a pro brewer has compared to the learning curve of a home brewer? Most home brewers don't have nearly that kind of experience. The end product matters and even if science says there is a biotransformation happening....it doesn't mean it's significant and or actually desired. It's a term people throw around like diacetyl or sulfate to chloride ratio. Do the homework, do the testing, and see what works. Make some recipe tweeks, see how many people like it or don't...adjust....see how it's received...can you imagine the size of the tasting panel a commercial brewery has?

 

[eugles]

I've learned to take any home brewer's advice with a grain of salt....even mine. Pro brewers have such an advantage. They brew for a living....they brew multiple times a week. Can you imagine the learning curve that a pro brewer has compared to the learning curve of a home brewer? Most home brewers don't have nearly that kind of experience. The end product matters and even if science says there is a biotransformation happening....it doesn't mean it's significant and or actually desired. It's a term people throw around like diacetyl or sulfate to chloride ratio. Do the homework, do the testing, and see what works. Make some recipe tweeks see how many people like it or don't...adjust....see how it's received...can you imagine the size of the tasting panel a commercial brewery has?

You're totally on point. As a relatively newer homebrewer, the amount of awesome NEIPA related info I've found through podcasts and online has been amazing. After doing many batches, I am starting to wonder about some of these dogmatic "must dos" though.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

even if science says there is a biotransformation happening....it doesn't mean it's significant and or actually desired. It's a term people throw around like diacetyl or sulfate to chloride ratio.

Biotransformation of wort chemicals by yeast is a thing - the most familiar example is the way that strains with the POF genes can transform ferulic acid from malt into 4-VG ("clove"). Hefe and most saison strains have the POF genes and give those "Belgian" phenolics, most brewery strains are POF- and don't transform ferulic acid. So only certain yeast strains biotransform malt compounds.

Hop biotransformation kind works the same way - some yeast strains do it, others don't. Conan and Chico (US-05/WLP001/1056 etc) are among those strains which don't seem to biotransform much if at all, which is why I suspect some people think biotransformation is not a thing, it's like trying to make a hefe with an Anglo-Saxon yeast and wondering why there's no clove.

You're right to emphasise the point about it may not be desired - by definition it means you're consuming some of the hop compounds and turning them into other things, typically you seem to lose ~20% hop intensity in return for some complexity, and some people may prefer that brighter single note instead of the slightly muted complexity. That seems to have been Scott Janish's conclusion when comparing Conan and 1318 in the same wort. But biotransformation is real - I found it by accident when comparing M36 and T-58 in a SMaSHish with Chinook and a splash of Amarillo, M36 gave classic Chinook grapefruit, but the T-58 had lime at maybe 80% of the intensity. If you tasted them blind, you would have said they were made with completely different hops, but the only difference was the yeast strain.

 

[beervoid]

Biotransformation of wort chemicals by yeast is a thing - the most familiar example is the way that strains with the POF genes can transform ferulic acid from malt into 4-VG ("clove"). Hefe and most saison strains have the POF genes and give those "Belgian" phenolics, most brewery strains are POF- and don't transform ferulic acid. So only certain yeast strains biotransform malt compounds.

Hop biotransformation kind works the same way - some yeast strains do it, others don't. Conan and Chico (US-05/WLP001/1056 etc) are among those strains which don't seem to biotransform much if at all, which is why I suspect some people think biotransformation is not a thing, it's like trying to make a hefe with an Anglo-Saxon yeast and wondering why there's no clove.

You're right to emphasise the point about it may not be desired - by definition it means you're consuming some of the hop compounds and turning them into other things, typically you seem to lose ~20% hop intensity in return for some complexity, and some people may prefer that brighter single note instead of the slightly muted complexity. That seems to have been Scott Janish's conclusion when comparing Conan and 1318 in the same wort. But biotransformation is real - I found it by accident when comparing M36 and T-58 in a SMaSHish with Chinook and a splash of Amarillo, M36 gave classic Chinook grapefruit, but the T-58 had lime at maybe 80% of the intensity. If you tasted them blind, you would have said they were made with completely different hops, but the only difference was the yeast strain.

I did a chinook biotransformation hop batch and split it with a non biotransformation.
Yeast was LAIII (famous for biotransformaton?)
Didnt perceive any difference at all.
Equilibrium did a Mystery of Chinook neipa that was exploring this feature of Chinook and it was very good though.

I did a mosaic biotransform experiment with kveik voss yeast. All it did was mute the flavour no difference.

Ive done over 50 batches of roughly the same grainbill for neipa sometimes with and sometimes without biohops. Can't say I ever tasted a remarkable difference..
The biggest advantage to hopping during fermentation is LODO nothing else in my experience and that for sure will make your beer "juicyer"

When I see beer reviews I also struggle to comprehend how people can get 10+ flavours from a beer, so perhaps my pallette is wrecked by all the pounds of hops

 

[couchsending]

Cl to So4 ratio is a pretty meaningless measurement. The amount you have of each is more important than the ratio.

Also the pH of your water isn’t really that important either. The buffering capacity of the water is what’s important. You could have water with a pH of 9 that’s easier to brew pale beers with than one with a pH of 7.

 

[leesmith]

Cl to So4 ratio is a pretty meaningless measurement.

I agree but the Ca to So4 ratio isn’t traditional jargon. The So4 to Cl ratio is a way for someone new to water chemistry to talk to the HBS about water profiles....that’s if the HBS has any knowledge at all on water. Basically, the ratio is a round about way of saying you have more of one ion over the other and could indicate wether the water profile supports crisp flavors or soft flavors etc....

Though, I’ve found researching in books and online about water is more effective than asking my local HBS. They simply don’t have the knowledge.

 

[couchsending]

I agree but the Ca to So4 ratio isn’t traditional jargon. The So4 to Cl ratio is a way for someone new to water chemistry to talk to the HBS about water profiles....that’s if the HBS has any knowledge at all on water. Basically, the ratio is a round about way of saying you have more of one ion over the other and could indicate wether the water profile supports crisp flavors or soft flavors etc....

Though, I’ve found researching in books and online about water is more effective than asking my local HBS. They simply don’t have the knowledge.

Yeah definitely never run into anyone at the few HBS that I frequent that knows more than the absolute basics about water. You could say the same thing about a lot of professional brewers these days as well I feel like. Can’t tell you the number of ones I talk to that say “we don’t touch our water, it’s what makes our beer what it is”. So often I feel like saying “well yeah it’s why your pale beers are harsh and painful to drink”.

 

[BASSBBQANDBEER]

I've been brewing this style for the last 3 years at home and have had great success tinkering with the recipe. This is what I'm doing and not only do I enjoy it, but so do many others (including my local homebrew club).

7.5 lbs Pilsen
7.5 lbs Marris Otter
2.5 lbs Flaked Wheat
2 Flaked Oats
8 oz Carapils
8 oz Oat Malt

2lbs. Organic Apple Sauce in Mash

.75 oz Columbus @ 60
Hop Stand, 2 oz of Citra, 2 oz of Mosaic for 20 mins @178F

4 oz Citra
4 oz Mosiac dry hopped in Keg with Clear Beer Draught System.

Vermont Bay yeast.

OG: 1.070
FG: 1.014

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

2lbs. Organic Apple Sauce in Mash


View attachment 602127

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

That was supposed to say “applesauce?....tell me more...”

 

[BASSBBQANDBEER]

That was supposed to say “applesauce?....tell me more...”

Pectin

I originally used Green Apple puree for a Milkshake IPA on a recipe last year and introduced it to my NEIPA recipe soon after. It contributes to a more pillowy mouth feel.

 

[day_trippr]

Pectin Haze now?

 

[ttuato]

Biotransformation of wort chemicals by yeast is a thing..... Conan and Chico (US-05/WLP001/1056 etc) are among those strains which don't seem to biotransform much if at all.

100% agree that it is a thing. My challenge is that my palette is not good enough to discern the biotransformation vs yeast esters. Therefore I use hops that naturally have high levels of b-citronellol (Citra, simcoe, strata, etc) in whirlpool hops.

The biggest advantage to hopping during fermentation is LODO...

There are generally two schools of thought of when to add biotransformation hops: high krausen or with a few points left. I choose the later for lodo.

 

[beervoid]

Cl to So4 ratio is a pretty meaningless measurement. The amount you have of each is more important than the ratio.

Also the pH of your water isn’t really that important either. The buffering capacity of the water is what’s important. You could have water with a pH of 9 that’s easier to brew pale beers with than one with a pH of 7.

After reading a bit on water profiles and minerals it seems like a black art to me. We can't really say how much minerals are added to our final beer from the grains unless we analyze each grain each year..... Ballast Point did some research on this and it showed alot of chloride coming from grains and also sulfate but almost half the amount then chloride..
if u want to keep your chloride high you don't need to add alot of chloride..
i've seen some water profile analysis on top NEIPA's that show different ratios..

 

[couchsending]

After reading a bit on water profiles and minerals it seems like a black art to me. We can't really say how much minerals are added to our final beer from the grains unless we analyze each grain each year..... Ballast Point did some research on this and it showed alot of chloride coming from grains and also sulfate but almost half the amount then chloride..
if u want to keep your chloride high you don't need to add alot of chloride..
i've seen some water profile analysis on top NEIPA's that show different ratios..

Agreed. I think the Ballast Point study is a bit of a guidline though. They did study quite a few base malts and the variances weren’t that huge. Maybe they’d change drastically season to season but I’m not sure. That study didn’t say they were all from one harvest year necessarily.

 

[SanPancho]

Pectin

I originally used Green Apple puree for a Milkshake IPA on a recipe last year and introduced it to my NEIPA recipe soon after. It contributes to a more pillowy mouth feel.

Is this based on your opinion or something referenced by a brewer/researcher/etc?

 

[Sbe2]

Not to start a typing war, but are hazy people being just as snobby as the clear beer folks were when this style was first coming in to its own. If it tastes great and has a soft mouthfeel (which I think most of us chase), then who gives an eff what it looks like.

Sorry just had to vent.

 

[beervoid]

Agreed. I think the Ballast Point study is a bit of a guidline though. They did study quite a few base malts and the variances weren’t that huge. Maybe they’d change drastically season to season but I’m not sure. That study didn’t say they were all from one harvest year necessarily.

Well I remember reading chloride can be from 200 up to 300ppm thats pretty big!
Taking averages from their research even though I start with 100% RO water I put 100ppm chloride and 50ppm sulfate in my mineral calculations as a base next to some basic amounts of magnesium sodium etc as well.
It would be nice if more people would analyze their wort and finished beer profiles to be able to make a good avarage.
I was also wondering why maltsters dont supply this kind of information.

 

[beervoid]

Not to start a typing war, but are hazy people being just as snobby as the clear beer folks were when this style was first coming in to its own. If it tastes great and has a soft mouthfeel (which I think most of us chase), then who gives an eff what it looks like.

Sorry just had to vent.

I think people get lost in where the haze comes from and trying to analyse it to death where its pretty "clear" where clarity comes from in a proper done west coast IPA

 

[kevink]

Is this based on your opinion or something referenced by a brewer/researcher/etc?

Jean Broillet from Tired Hands has stated that he puts apple puree in his Milkshakes. He has said it during an interview and on Instagram. I don't think he said it's for a pillowy mouthfeel, though.

 

[beervoid]

Jean Broillet from Tired Hands has stated that he puts apple puree in his Milkshakes. He has said it during an interview and on Instagram. I don't think he said it's for a pillowy mouthfeel, though.

I also recall they have since backed out of this as it is an unnecessary step and the same effect can be achieved without.

 

[kevink]

I also recall they have since backed out of this as it is an unnecessary step and the same effect can be achieved without.

I wondered if he still did this. What's your source of that information?

 

[BASSBBQANDBEER]

Is this based on your opinion or something referenced by a brewer/researcher/etc?

Both.

Jean Broillet IV of Tired Hands mentioned on a podcast (can't remember which one) using green apple puree in a milkshake IPA so I tried experimented with it when I made a few. Soon after, I started experimenting with it with my NEIPA recipes and have found that it contributes to a hazier and softer beer. I don't use it with every recipe, just the one's I make during the winter.

 

[plazola86]

Latest IPA - 9% ABV

Did: Flaked oats, white wheat
Didn’t: Used common yeast = Hornindal Kviek
Didn’t: No Munich, crystal or cara anything for color or head retention.

 

[beervoid]

I wondered if he still did this. What's your source of that information?

I dont remember it was probably from that blog of the fellow that lives near Tired Hands.
Ive seen a recipe from omnipollo as well which tired hands brew alot together with and they dont put pectin.