NEIPA dont’s

[Moose_MI]

Just did my first NEIPA and it’s not good. I will drink it until I can quickly brew something else to fill that space in kegerator. I will not share this beer ....this is a beer that only a parent can love

It’s to bitter...10Gal batch that I did a .5oz Apollo at 60..3oz of juicy hops at 5min...5oz of juicy at 180F whirlpool. I wanted to skip the 60min hop..I really did...but I just couldn’t brew an IPA without a 60min hop.

If you’re brewing a NEIPA...DO NOT add 60min hops. I can taste the NEIPA wanting to come out but those f’ing 60min IBUs are just killing them. I’d love to know what this beer would have been w/o the 60min IBUs. I read all the posts about FLAMEOUT HOPS ONLY and assumed those idiots had no idea how to make an IPA.....wished I’d listened to those idiots...sigh

Since NEIPA is THE beer to brew these days I thought I’d share and see if others had a 1st attempt fail that they want to share learnings from.

I’m going to do this style again and don’t want to fail twice....

 

[Sbe2]

Exposing it to oxygen is a bigger concern for me. I always add 7 grams of Columbus for a FWH in my NEIPAs in a 5G batch. I like the juice, but I still need the bitter.

It could be the 3 oz at the 5 minute mark. My hopping schedule is usually FWH, FO, WP, and DH. I hardly add any during the 60 minute boil.

 

[day_trippr]

If that "180" is accurate, that could be your issue. 180 will isomerize alpha acid compounds, and if one used fwh as well the result could be too bitter for the style.

fwiw, for my neipas I do use a small 60 minute addition, a 5 minute addition, then a metric crap ton of wp hops - at 170°F...

Cheers!

 

[Morrey]

Realizing we want some sort of IBU contribution for bittering at FWH or 60 min, I started using CO2 based Hop Extract from Yakima Valley. This extract provides a very smooth bitterness w/o sharp edges. I think I used 5 ml in my last 11 G batch which gave me around 20 IBUs. Then I didn't make anymore hop additions until FO and then again under 180F during the WP. Then some during dry hop additions as normal. I really have come to depend on the hop extracts and find them to be very effective to bitter nicely and not be overly assertive.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Realizing we want some sort of IBU contribution for bittering at FWH or 60 min, I started using CO2 based Hop Extract from Yakima Valley. This extract provides a very smooth bitterness w/o sharp edges. I think I used 5 ml in my last 11 G batch which gave me around 20 IBUs. Then I didn't make anymore hop additions until FO and then again under 180F during the WP. Then some during dry hop additions as normal. I really have come to depend on the hop extracts and find them to be very effective to bitter nicely and not be overly assertive.

Interesting. I've seen recipes that call for the extract and just figured I'd sub in pellets to achieve the same IBU contribution. The extracts are smoother though?

I don't typically use a 60 min addition for my NEIPAs (my recipes) as they seem to get plenty of bittering from the 5 min and FO contributions. But if I ever brew one of those recipes with the hop extract, I guess I'll have to be true to the recipe then.

 

[pigroaster]

I have extract from same source and am interested if you use it other than initial boil for IBU's. Tips welcome. Thanks

Realizing we want some sort of IBU contribution for bittering at FWH or 60 min, I started using CO2 based Hop Extract from Yakima Valley. This extract provides a very smooth bitterness w/o sharp edges. I think I used 5 ml in my last 11 G batch which gave me around 20 IBUs. Then I didn't make anymore hop additions until FO and then again under 180F during the WP. Then some during dry hop additions as normal. I really have come to depend on the hop extracts and find them to be very effective to bitter nicely and not be overly assertive.

 

[Morrey]

Interesting. I've seen recipes that call for the extract and just figured I'd sub in pellets to achieve the same IBU contribution. The extracts are smoother though?

I don't typically use a 60 min addition for my NEIPAs (my recipes) as they seem to get plenty of bittering from the 5 min and FO contributions. But if I ever brew one of those recipes with the hop extract, I guess I'll have to be true to the recipe then.

Like you, I was at the point I figured I's simply skip the 60 min addition and focus on additions later in the process. I was surprised when I first tried the extract to find how smooth and mellow it is. I originally ordered one of the syringes called a Hop Shot from Yakima. After I used it in a NEIPA (Braufessor's Recipe and with 150 Chloride and 75 Sulfate) I immediately ordered a can of the extract and made up a baggie of the hop shot syringes myself.

Since discovering the extract, it has become part of my standard process for all beers at FWH. Kind of gives us the mentality to say we love hops but not the harshness or bitterness often associated with higher IBUs. I honestly feel you'll be pleased if you try it.

 

[Morrey]

I have extract from same source and am interested if you use it other than initial boil for IBU's. Tips welcome. Thanks

I have only used the CTZ extract for bittering at FWH and 60 min. However, @mongoose33 brewed recently and used the CTZ extract for his 20 minute addition as well. First reports are that the taste is fine, so maybe he'll see this post and weigh in.

 

[kh54s10]

I haven't tried to brew one yet because I have not bought a commercial one that I liked, even a little. I will keep watching for tips and may brew one eventually.

 

[Upthewazzu]

It took me 4 tries to get passed not adding a 60min addition. Finally, on my 5th try I skipped the 60min, but added a generous amount at 10 minutes. It's the best one yet, extremely drinkable for 8% (too drinkable, lol).

 

[IslandLizard]

Chances are the 3 oz at 5' added as much or more bitterness than the 0.5 oz at 60'.

So either stick with the 60' hops but push those 5' hops to the whirlpool at 180 and let it drop to 170 over 10-15 min. Then add your 2nd whirlpool hops at 170-160 and leave at that (a little heating may be required) for 20-30' before chilling down to pitching temps.

Or as you said, skip the 60' hops and stick with the rest.

Both approaches will yield a different kind of bitterness, even if the generated IBUs are similar.

I'd brew another NEIPA the way you want. Then either mix them half and half at pouring or mix the bitter one with a Pale Ale or so.

 

[BrewerE]

I haven't tried to brew one yet because I have not bought a commercial one that I liked, even a little. I will keep watching for tips and may brew one eventually.

Agreed. There's only one NEIPA don't at my house and it's:

Don't.

 

[Brak23]

I used 0.5 OZ Columbus Hops in a 60 minute boil for a 5 gallon batch. It was slightly bitter, but not bad. It would have been perfect if I had more flavor (doubling up my 170 degree whirlpool).

 

[Sbe2]

Agreed. There's only one NEIPA don't at my house and it's:

Don't.

 

[mongoose33]

I have only used the CTZ extract for bittering at FWH and 60 min. However, @mongoose33 brewed recently and used the CTZ extract for his 20 minute addition as well. First reports are that the taste is fine, so maybe he'll see this post and weigh in.

I did a rye beer I've done a number of times. This time I used 3.5 ml of Hop Shot at 60 minutes, and 3.0 ml at 20 minutes. I used 1 ounce of Styrian Celeia at 10 minutes. Normally I'd use .5 ounce of Columbus at 60 and .5 at 20. Last time that Columbus had an AA percentage of 13.4.

The effect of the hop shots are a more rounded bitterness, if that makes any sense. Morrey and I both brewed a CalCommon off the same recipe except he used the Hop Shot for bittering while I used just normal Northern Brewer hop pellets. They both tasted great, but there was a discernable difference. The hop presence in Morrey's version was more rounded and full, whereas the hop presence in mine was a little sharper.

Which is better depends on what you'd like, I suppose. Both were very good, IMO, just a little difference in the way the hops presented themselves.

*********

So what about the Rye? A more rounded kind of hop presence. I was originally interested in this as a way to reduce hop trub in the wort, but it also has benefit in flavor, I think. I might turn up the carbonation a bit to give the beer a little more bite, see if that changes things for the better. But I might not, too.

When I brew this again, I'll probably add just a touch more of the Hop Shot at 60 minutes. But then again, I might not.

The one thing I'd note is that there tends to be this bitterness component, but less so of a flavor/aroma component. IMO, it's worth trying it, starting w/ a replacement for a bittering addition, and see if you like the result. It's not going to turn a good beer into a so-so beer--it'll still work. But the nature of the effect will, in my experience, be somewhat different.

 

[thehaze]

For NEIPAs, I don't do a classic bittering charge. The first hop addition usually comes in the last 15-20 minutes of the boil. I do employ lots of late hop addition, for flavour character and once the boil is done, I quickly cool the wort down to 148-158F and then add the whirlpool hops and steep for 15-30 minutes. No isomerization of hop oil will occur under 160F, but I think at 180F you could possibly still be extracting too much bitterness.

 

[whiskeyjack]

I put your hop amounts into brewersfriend with one of my recipes, came out 151 ibu's. The amount for the 5 minute and wp are about double most of my recipes because you do both, its not the 60 minute addition. I would do one or the other or half of each. I usually have a 30 or 60 minute addition come in around 25-35 ibus, then do 3-4 oz wp, 3-4 oz dry hop

 

[divrack]

I think a problem when using being software to calculate ibu in this style is that they weirdly don't take into account the ibus extracted from late flame additions by the extended slow cooling and steep.
So while they are quite accurate now for steep calculations on their own, of you've checked in a big load at 5 mins they fall down.
I generally add a ghost hop addition in the ingredients that has an aa of the late addition reduced by the percentage of utilization the software accounts for, if that makes sense.
So if I added a late addition of 1oz at 10 percent utilization of a 10aa hop id maybe add a 1oz addition of ghost hop of 8 or 9aa as steep to get the numbers somewhat closer to what I judge as accurate.
No idea how right this is but it seems closer to me.
Wouldn't have thought it would be too hard to build into the calculators. At least they are better now regarding steep ibus

 

[charger]

I just kegged a 10 gallon batch (11 in the fermentor) that used 2 pounds of hops. 1 pound in the whirlpool (8 oz at 180, 8 oz at 150) and 1 pound as dry hop (8 oz at high krausen, 8 oz for 5 days) total fermentation time of 8 days then cold crash.

I think big components to NEIPA are: Water chemistry, high cl - 150ppm with moderate so2 - 75 ppm, Mash temp - 155-157, Huge whirlpool additions. No hops needed in the boil with such large whirlpool additions at a relatively high temp. You can see the NEIPA haze characteristic come to life after the first whirlpool addition. The haze immediately falls into place and smells fantastic during whirloool.

 

[charger]

For the record, I think the whirlpool hop amount was a little much. 10 oz total in whirlpool would probably suffice.

 

[Moose_MI]

I put your hop amounts into brewersfriend with one of my recipes, came out 151 ibu's. The amount for the 5 minute and wp are about double most of my recipes because you do both, its not the 60 minute addition. I would do one or the other or half of each. I usually have a 30 or 60 minute addition come in around 25-35 ibus, then do 3-4 oz wp, 3-4 oz dry hop

5 or 10 Gal batch? This was 10Gal...

 

[Moose_MI]

I just kegged a 10 gallon batch (11 in the fermentor) that used 2 pounds of hops. 1 pound in the whirlpool (8 oz at 180, 8 oz at 150) and 1 pound as dry hop (8 oz at high krausen, 8 oz for 5 days) total fermentation time of 8 days then cold crash.

I think big components to NEIPA are: Water chemistry, high cl - 150ppm with moderate so2 - 75 ppm, Mash temp - 155-157, Huge whirlpool additions. No hops needed in the boil with such large whirlpool additions at a relatively high temp. You can see the NEIPA haze characteristic come to life after the first whirlpool addition. The haze immediately falls into place and smells fantastic during whirloool.

Yes...^^^^^ this is me next time

 

[whiskeyjack]

5 or 10 Gal batch? This was 10Gal...

Woops thought it was 5

 

[Moose_MI]

This beer is just not good..way to bitter. I love my ipa’s and neipa’s. This ain’t a neipa and you’d have to be a masochist to even enjoy it as an ipa.

Here’s recipe screen shot for 5g. IS THERE ANYWAY THIS BEER TASTES GOOD? Please..I just want to know if I screwed up in execution or recipe selection


So i just went back to the website i got this recipe from

 

[jturman35]

I did the Citra, Mosaic, Amarillo combo. Which I believe is the most used combo for NEIPA. I’m a newb and only have one NEIPA under my belt so take me with a grain of salt, but I think Simcoe/Centennial is on the bitter side for a NEIPA. Personally I would pick hops that fall under Citrus ,floral, fruity, tropical category.

But then again when you add after flameout maybe you pull more of those characteristics from the hops you have selected. I love Simcoe which is massively hopped in one of my most favorite beers! MS Fire Ant which is a Imperial Red!

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

This beer is just not good..way to bitter. I love my ipa’s and neipa’s. This ain’t a neipa and you’d have to be a masochist to even enjoy it as an ipa.

Here’s recipe screen shot for 5g. IS THERE ANYWAY THIS BEER TASTES GOOD? Please..I just want to know if I screwed up in execution or recipe selection


So i just went back to the website i got this recipe from

Take out the 60 minute addition and it's not too far off of what I brew for my NEIPAs. My first hop addition is at 5 mins (usually 3-4 oz), another at FO (2-4), then a 170 degree WP for 20 mins (about 2-4) and then a 4 oz DH addition about 36 hours after pitch. I shoot for about 45 IBUs.

I also shoot for 6-6.5% ABV...yours looks lower than that (unless you're rockin' the efficiency), so you're going to want less better and probably less hops in general. I like a little flaked wheat in mine along with some carapils for head retention.

In general, with all the late addition hops you can just skip the stereotypical 60 min boil addition. You get plenty of bitter from the others. I imagine that beer would be drinkable, but it's more like an old school IPA than a NEIPA.

 

[couchsending]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

 

[jturman35]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

Well it looks like I know nothing about brewing NEIPAs.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

Ok, so what are the "do"s?

 

[day_trippr]

 

[jturman35]

Straight from Craft Beer & Brewing magazine.

 

[couchsending]

A lot of what people think is necessary for this style isn’t being done by what I would consider to be the top three...
HF, Treehouse, Trillium.

Anyone notice the latest Trillium Permutation grain bills? No adjuncts.

No wheat or oats in any Treehouse beer outside of some random Curiosity.

All of them use in part a High Floccing yeast strain.

None of them use piles of CaCl from what I can tell.

If there is dry hopping during fermentation it’s well after krausen has fallen.

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, I'll ask, from where/whom are you obtaining your information?
It's hard to consider outlier concepts without some terra firma in the equation...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

All the info has been stated by the brewers on web forums, their websites, or social media. Other info can be gleened from testing available to anyone who wants to pay for it.

 

[divrack]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

Heresy! Foul blasphemer! Apostate! Deviant criminal and Madman, vile defiler of the truth!
Although you may be right.
For what it's worth I use the label neipa to refer to anything that has a **** tonne of hops without much bitterness and a nice full light biscuit maltyness. IPA is anything bitter and hoppy. Apa is the same basically but with American hops.

It's all, like, just semantics dude.
For what it's worth some of my neipas have wheat some oats some don't. All have dry hops added at some level of active ferment and usually some steeping at lower temp. I seem to prefer a good ratio of cl to sulfate but still a great beer when high on the gyp as I used to favour.
No hops for a long boil.

Going back to the op I would remove the 90 min addition. Don't see why it would be undrinkable. Are you sure you are not tasting hop particles from the dry hop?
They will take time to settle and causes that super astringent bitterness

 

[jturman35]

I don’t use hops for any of the NEIPA’s I brew. I don’t see what all the hype is about!

 

[chickypad]

A lot of what people think is necessary for this style isn’t being done by what I would consider to be the top three...
HF, Treehouse, Trillium.

Anyone notice the latest Trillium Permutation grain bills? No adjuncts.

No wheat or oats in any Treehouse beer outside of some random Curiosity.

All of them use in part a High Floccing yeast strain.

None of them use piles of CaCl from what I can tell.

If there is dry hopping during fermentation it’s well after krausen has fallen.

I don't have direct experience with most of the east coast breweries unfortunately, but on Trillium's site the current Permuation has oats. It pretty much looks like all their IPA's have wheat or flaked wheat, except Storrowed which has flaked oats.
Do you have some links where the brewers from these places talk about their hopping techniques? Would like to hear what they are doing instead of the lower temp whirlpool and early dry hopping.

 

[GoldenBristle]

A lot of what people think is necessary for this style isn’t being done by what I would consider to be the top three...
HF, Treehouse, Trillium.

Anyone notice the latest Trillium Permutation grain bills? No adjuncts.

No wheat or oats in any Treehouse beer outside of some random Curiosity.

All of them use in part a High Floccing yeast strain.

None of them use piles of CaCl from what I can tell.

If there is dry hopping during fermentation it’s well after krausen has fallen.

I can guarantee you, from firsthand experience, that Trillium dry hops at high krausen, utilizes tons of CaCl, and tons of adjuncts. FWIW

 

[tjosie]

Agreed. There's only one NEIPA don't at my house and it's:

Don't.

This read in a ron swanson voice in my head.

 

[couchsending]

I don't have direct experience with most of the east coast breweries unfortunately, but on Trillium's site the current Permuation has oats. It pretty much looks like all their IPA's have wheat or flaked wheat, except Storrowed which has flaked oats.
Do you have some links where the brewers from these places talk about their hopping techniques? Would like to hear what they are doing instead of the lower temp whirlpool and early dry hopping.

Permutation 30,31,32... no wheat or oats, tons of haze. Everyone commenting on how soft and smooth they are.