Negatives of BIAB?

[bondra76]

You fellas have bowled me over with all of the BIAB stories in here. I’m wondering what the downside is? What are the negatives?

I have a 8 gallon pot right now doing 5 gallon batches. Going to upsize to at least a 12.5 gallon pot so that I can do BIAB. Probably excessive, but I just brewed a Kwak clone with a 2 hour boil and high ABV so I feel like I need something bigger anyhow.

What else should I be aware of with BIAB, besides getting a bigger pot? I guess you get maybe 5 points lower efficiency than a mash tun (if even that), but 5 points of lower efficiency isn’t worth the whole ordeal of building a stand, getting an extra propane tank, welding thermometers into metal kegs, etc. etc. etc. etc. It’s beer, not heart surgery. And that’s why I want to go to BIAB. I’m just wondering what the devils advocate twist to this is.

 

[ltwhiskers]

Cleaning the damn bag.

 

[mtnagel]

Cleaning the damn bag.

You'd have to clean a mash tun anyway. I just hose mine out and then stick it in the washing machine on delicate with some towels and Tide Free.

The other downsides I can see are lifting a heavy bag of sticky, hot grains.

I don't know what the limit is with my bag, but I'm sure there is some limit to the amount I can put in there and lift. Of course there is a limit with the typical homebrew cooler mash tuns.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

Yup the only difference is the bag and maybe keeping your mashed grains at a consistent temp in your boil kettle

 

[sparkshooter]

5 points of lower efficiency isn’t worth the whole ordeal of building a stand, getting an extra propane tank, welding thermometers into metal kegs, etc. etc. etc. etc.

This doesn't respond to your question re:BIAB, but using a cooler as a mashtun doesn't require building a stand, the propane tank, welding, etc.

 

[Yooper]

I can only think of one downside- for bigger batches, I simply can't lift a huge bag of heavy wet grain.

I know some people use hoists and pulleys and things, but I brew in my laundry room and do 10 gallon batches. I have a tippy dump on my MLT so I don't have to do much heavy lifting at all.

Other that the weight the grainbag, I can't think of any disadvantages.

 

[The_Bishop]

For me it's more loss to trub. No matter how fine the bag is, you'll get very cloudy wort, which seems to translate into more trub. Other than that, not much. It's how I started in all-grain.

 

[BPal75]

Maintaining steady mash temps. It may not be the case for everyone, but especially in the winter I have a hard time maintaining temps compared to my mash tun cooler. I typically throw an old sleeping bag over the kettle to help insulate but I still would lose about 5-6 degrees over an hour. Then I have to fire up the burner, stir to avoid scorching grains, etc. It can get to be more of a chore, compared to my tun where I can hold temps steady for an hour no problem so I don't really have to deal with it until it's time to vorlauf.


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[theonetrueruss]

It will definitely will limit your batch size without extra equipment. Of course the efficiency issue is there. I would think that you would get more grain husk etc in the wort as the bag will not filter as good as a well done vorlauf and sparge technique. To me it all depends on what you are trying to do and what excites you about the hobby. For some people building equipment and stands and other parts is a big piece of the fun. Do it how you like and enjoy!

 

[RM-MN]

Maintaining steady mash temps. It may not be the case for everyone, but especially in the winter I have a hard time maintaining temps compared to my mash tun cooler. I typically throw an old sleeping bag over the kettle to help insulate but I still would lose about 5-6 degrees over an hour. Then I have to fire up the burner, stir to avoid scorching grains, etc. It can get to be more of a chore, compared to my tun where I can hold temps steady for an hour no problem so I don't really have to deal with it until it's time to vorlauf.


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Have you ever considered why you mash for an hour? Conversion doesn't take that long. If your grains are milled fine the conversion of the starch to sugar is pretty quick. Next time you brew a batch try a 30 minute mash instead of 60.

 

[mb82]

To me it is lifting the bag which = you can't go but so big on batch size. I don't have any problems lifting my current setup but I can see how it might be hard for some people.

Efficiency is not a problem for me(sitting around 80%), nor is trub loss. I run a fine meshed bag and I get less trub loss then I had when I was extract brewing. I do filter through a spare bag when it goes into the fermenter.

The biggest negative to BIAB is all the misinformation some people like to spout and the near hatred some people have of it or so it seems. I just want to brew beer man.

 

[iijakii]

I quickly grew tired of lifting the bag and dealing with bags ripping. I'll gladly stick with my mash tuns now but everytime I see a build with a hoist system and basket I somewhat want to go back. But, we all know.... bling > simplistic functionality \m/

 

[PRE66_6TART]

Yeah I've had all the same issues that have been mentioned so far. The grain bag can be messy/heavy/hot, and limits the size/gravities that I can do. I get extra trub from cloudy wort. And maintaining mash temps was tricky for me to get the hang of.

I'm sure there are different solutions to these problems depending on people's circumstances. For instance, I brew in my kitchen so I maintain my mash temp by putting it in my oven, which means I can't do a full volume mash, which is fine since I like to dunk sparge anyway so I don't have to stand there squeezing my hot/heavy/messy grain bag or holding it while it drips.

The cloudy wort/extra trub doesn't bother me and I have no interest in doing larger batches, so I'm happy with my method for now.

 

[bondra76]

Cool I appreciate the feedback guys.

I do have a pulley system in my garage. Probably by accident, but it's there (I'm in a rental and the dude somehow had one in there for whatever reason).

Sounds like maintaining mash temp is the biggest issue but I still don't feel like investing a ton of money into a full blown AG setup. Sounds like BIAB is for me.

 

[mtnagel]

I use some old blankets I lose 3-4 degrees over the mash which I think it acceptable. I'm trying to find a cheap jacket or sleeping bag, but haven't yet.

 

[mb82]

I use two moving blankets and I normally lose less then 1 deg over the hour. So far the coldest I have mashed in was around 40 so I assume if you are brewing in colder weather that would affect mash temps more.

 

[wilserbrewer]

With a large enough pot, and a well shaped polyester voile bag, and a simple ratchet pulley, large batch BIAB is easily done. I actually BIAB brew my largest batches at 15.5 gallons due to mash tun size constraints.

I flip flop between using a cooler MLT and BIAB and find both methods equally effective at producing nice beer.

Once you have a decent method for lifting and handling the bag over the kettle, BIAB is very simple.

Only negative for BIAB for me is waiting for the full volume of strike water to be heated before you brew a large batch quickly.



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[haeffnkr]

There are no negatives.
There are some challenges.

I wish I would have bought a bigger pot, like 25 gallons, is that a negative?
(but I have since worked around that challenge)

thanks Kevin

 

[Croyzen]

My negative experiences are;

A little more trub and beer loss.
Harder to maintain mash temps.
Lower efficiency.

I've only done a couple BIAB and normally use a mash tun. I would suspect that if I wanted to go exclusively BIAB that I could minimize those issues. The end product tasted good. There are some nice BIAB setups out there.

 

[adiochiro3]

Squeezing and pressing the hot grain bag is the toughest part. Otherwise, I get nice clear beer, good efficiency, and easy clean up.

 

[RM-MN]

With a large enough pot, and a decent bag, and a simple ratchet pulley, large batch BIAB is easily done. I brew my largest batches at 15.5 gallons BIAB due to mash tun constraints.

I flip flop between using a cooler MLT and BIAB and find both methods equally effective at producing nice beer.

Once you have a decent method for handling the bag over the kettle, BIAB is very simple.

Only negative for BIAB for me is waiting for the full volume of strike water to be heated before you brew a large batch quickly.



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Have you thought about adding an electric "heat stick"? That should decrease the time to bring the water to strike temp.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Squeezing and pressing the hot grain bag is the toughest part.

I know the temptation to squeeze the bag is overwhelming, but I have found if the bag is simply left to drain, either hanging above the pot, or in a colander while the wort comes to a boil, there is not much left to squeeze at all. Try it, I was surprised how little wort is actually left in the grain if it is just left alone for 20 minutes or so.

Have you thought about adding an electric "heat stick"?

I'm already electric, adding more wattage might brown out the neighborhood

My intended point was that with a batch sparge, a lesser volume needs to be heated prior to dough in, as opposed to a full volume BIAB. With 4000w my strike water is usually ready to go a few minutes after I finish crushing.

 

[Milan37]

As far as I can tell, there are no negatives to the process itself: It's every bit as efficient (or more) than old-school AG systems, the beer is just as clear, there is no difference in quality.

There may be negatives for a particular brewer: like the posters who say they don't like lifting and draining the bag. This is entirely legit (not that anyone needs me to say so), but it is not a criticism of the method itself, any more than "I don't want a cooler taking up storage space" is a criticism of the old-school AG method.

 

[DigB]

I`ve just started BIABing and I can`t see any problems with it. just make sure you get a good bag (Swiss Voile polyester fabric was recommended to me). Make sure you get a big enough mash tun/Kettle. I have a 15 Gallon MegaPot and I have no issues for even a 6 gallon batch and I'm sure I could go a little bigger.
Lifting the bag can be a challenge if you aren't a genetic freak like me.....cough cough really though, its not that bad but it can be a bit heavy (20-40lbs, if I had to guess) if you have a bigger grain bill.
You need to make sure the grain is crushed fine enough but not into flour, this will help with your efficiency.
As far as getting good efficiency, I am still very new to this process and I was able to get 83% into kettle and 75% into the fermentor.
My last brew was a little hazy but I think with a little practice I should be able to take care of that pretty easily.
As for maintaining your target mash temp, that is a challenge but not that hard to keep close. I brewed my Guinness clone about a week ago and it was -7C or about 20F, I had to add a little heat twice. I covered my kettle with a nice thick blanket and that seemed to help quite a bit. I also would stir the mash when I was adding heat as to not burn the bag, but that would also equalize the mash temp. I was always within about 4 degrees F of my target. It fluctuated a little too much for my liking but I'm sure when I brew in warmer temps I shouldn't have this problem.

Really you won't know what bothers you and what doesn't untill you try it. If you have a burner and a Kettle, go spend the 10 bucks on a bag and give it a try... You'll be surprised how easy it is.

My last bit of advise would be to visit the forum that is home to the people who invented BIAB. BIABrewer.info
You will find the answer to pretty much any question you have.

I hope that helps.

 

[benco]

I'm sure everyone has different setups and techniques. The main negative I get tired of is lifting a 15# bag of grain. It's time to rig up some kind of pulley system. I love biab.

 

[wilserbrewer]

It's time to rig up some kind of pulley system. I love biab.

Unless you have 3 hands, a pulley with a ratchet lock mechanism is far better IME.

 

[BigFloyd]

For me it's more loss to trub. No matter how fine the bag is, you'll get very cloudy wort, which seems to translate into more trub. Other than that, not much. It's how I started in all-grain.

Not necessarily. I did so the first batch I ran just after building my recirculating E-BIAB rig (it looked like tan mud, but cleared nicely in the fermenter).

After that, I refined the procedures (double-bag, whirlfloc, cut back the pump flow and allowed things to settle 20 min post chill). What I get into the fermenter now is quite clear.

I use a 15.5 gallon keggle. I haven't yet attempted a 10 gallon batch in it and probably won't since it would be tough to hoist that much grain out without scraping the sides and possibly making a mess.

I'm sure everyone has different setups and techniques. The main negative I get tired of is lifting a 15# bag of grain. It's time to rig up some kind of pulley system. I love biab.

I use something like this attached to the ceiling of my garage. - http://www.amazon.com/Game-MLS01-V-Magnum-Lift-System/dp/B000VCOR9M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393470783&sr=8-1&keywords=game+hoist

 

[adiochiro3]

I know the temptation to squeeze the bag is overwhelming, but I have found if the bag is simply left to drain, either hanging above the pot, or in a colander while the wort comes to a boil, there is not much left to squeeze at all. Try it, I was surprised how little wort is actually left in the grain if it is just left alone for 20 minutes or so.

Good advice. I have done exactly as you suggest many times -- and it works as you advertise (about 30 min. in my experience). I use a chinios/strainer like this:

I find it quicker to put our pizza pan over the pot, set the bag on top, and press the bag with a pot lid to ring out the bag of grains. It's not really a big problem, but it is my biggest negative in BIAB (not much of a negative, though). Just chiming in on the OP's question.
.
I think BIAB is the bomb right up until the bag gets too heavy to comfortably lift. However, I generally brew 3 gal. batches BIAB. If it's 5, I'll usually go AG or extract, depending on the recipe.

What I love most about BIAB is the simplicity: one pot, less clean up.

 

[RM-MN]

Not necessarily. I did so the first batch I ran just after building my recirculating E-BIAB rig (it looked like tan mud, but cleared nicely in the fermenter).

After that, I refined the procedures (double-bag, whirlfloc, cut back the pump flow and allowed things to settle 20 min post chill). What I get into the fermenter now is quite clear.

I use a 15.5 gallon keggle. I haven't yet attempted a 10 gallon batch in it and probably won't since it would be tough to hoist that much grain out without scraping the sides and possibly making a mess.



I use something like this attached to the ceiling of my garage. - http://www.amazon.com/Game-MLS01-V-Magnum-Lift-System/dp/B000VCOR9M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393470783&sr=8-1&keywords=game+hoist

Now that you have tried both muddy looking wort and nice clean wort, can you tell the difference when the beers have been in the bottle for 3 or 4 weeks?

 

[Weezy]

Really no difference in quality, in my experience. Everything else is preference, like dealing with a heavy bag of hot wet grain or cleaning and storing for a cooler.

After that, I refined the procedures (double-bag, whirlfloc, cut back the pump flow and allowed things to settle 20 min post chill). What I get into the fermenter now is quite clear.

Just a note that whirlfloc and letting the sediment settle out for 10 minutes post chill will get you to very clear beer in the fermenter. What is in the wort making it cloudy is very heavy particulate that will fall out either during the wort chilling or in the fermenter, especially with the aid of the whirlfoc. (you really don't even need to wait after chilling, you'll just end up with more trub on the bottom of the fermenter)

 

[mikebanyai]

So what is it that folks have against using 2 or 3 bags and dividing the load? I do that even with 3 gal batchs and works like a charm. Only thing I can figure is that folks get one big bag and put it over the edge of the pot, not every body needs to do it this way, you can use two or three bags and just clip the tops bunched together to the side of the pot. Couple of times during the process lift each up and down a bit..that provides some water movement into and out of the bags....

 

[The_Bishop]

Doing it that way tends to overcrowd the mash and causes poor efficiency. You need to stir BIAB occasionally, especially when adding heat.

 

[wilserbrewer]

So what is it that folks have against using 2 or 3 bags and dividing the load? I do that even with 3 gal batchs and works like a charm.

I have nothing against this, just seems like more labor. Multiple bags likely works fine as long as you stir each bag and the grain is not crowded and rinsed well.

Many ways to a common goal.

Cheers!



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[dobe12]

I'd like to add a few things here and give solutions to listed problems.

Mash temp: I have no problem holding a mash temp with no more than a 1-3 degree drop over 60min even outside on the coldest winter day. After I mash in I wrap the entire pot with reflective insulation. You can get a 25ft roll for about $20. I cut a circle to go under the pot, a circle to go over the lid, and I have 3 long pieces taped together that wrap completely around the pot. On a warm day, I may lose 1 degree. On cold days, maybe 2-3. Works great.

Efficiency: I routinely get between 75-85%, so I really don't think there's an average loss of 5 points. Just make sure your grain sack is large enough to hold all the grain loosely. I use a 24"x24" sack. Plenty of room. If anything, BIAB should yield a higher efficiency since you can crush finer and not worry about a stuck sparge.

Mixing: There is also no need to mix the mash after your initial mash in. I tried it many times with mixing every 15min and also once in the middle of the mash, and I've done it with no extra mixing. I haven't noticed any sort of efficiency spike. If you mix thoroughly while mashing in, there's no need for extra mixing.

The only downside I see is the weight of lifting the bag. That does suck, but I just use a large strainer. I pull the bag, pop the large strainer on top of the pot, and place the bag in. Give it a little squeeze and done. And yes, squeezing is OK. You can't squeeze tannins from a sack of grain. Tannins are released if your pH is off and too high temps.

Trub: yes, there is a lot more trub with BIAB, IMO. I often have 1/2 to 1gal of trub at the bottom of my fermentors, especially if using a lot of wheat or rye. I don't worry about it. I just account for it and make sure I end up with enough wort to account for the extra trub. My fermentors are often filled to 6gallons or more.

 

[dobe12]

You'd have to clean a mash tun anyway. I just hose mine out and then stick it in the washing machine on delicate with some towels and Tide Free.

The washing machine!!! DUH!!! How have I never thought of that? I usually rinse it out well, then let it hang to dry. Once it drys it's pretty easy to get all the left off grain bits out.

Man do I feel stupid..... the washing machine....

 

[mikebanyai]

My experience is that multiple bags in no way harms the process as I usually get in the 80% range, just my way of many to do this whole thing, its the ultimate, relax have a homebrew experience in general..grin..

 

[mtnagel]

The washing machine!!! DUH!!! How have I never thought of that? I usually rinse it out well, then let it hang to dry. Once it drys it's pretty easy to get all the left off grain bits out.

Man do I feel stupid..... the washing machine....

LOL. I collect the cooling water into the washing machine and I always have brewing towels or bath towels I can wash. Works out perfect.

 

[beersk]

Higher mash pH with the thinner mash typical of brewing in a bag. That and lifting the bag and holding it are about the own downsides I can think of.

 

[dstranger99]

I can only think of one downside- for bigger batches, I simply can't lift a huge bag of heavy wet grain.

I know some people use hoists and pulleys and things, but I brew in my laundry room and do 10 gallon batches. I have a tippy dump on my MLT so I don't have to do much heavy lifting at all.

Other that the weight the grainbag, I can't think of any disadvantages.

And that's it in a nutshell ! The bags are heavy ! 3 - 5 gallon BIAB is not too bad, anything more you will need to be a strong man, or need a pulley at least.

 

[dobe12]

Higher mash pH with the thinner mash typical of brewing in a bag. That and lifting the bag and holding it are about the own downsides I can think of.

Mash using normal grain/water ratio, dunk sparge in a second pot. Problem solved!