Need a little advice on how to wire up controller

[Semicole]

I am thinking of making the switch to electric brewing and building my own brew controller based on this guy's build here: https://skrilnetz.net/how-to-build-a-brewing-control-panel-herms-240v-30-amp/

I have all of the components in my cart ready to buy and have started thinking of how I am going to connect my system to power. I currently rent a house and there is already a breaker box supplied with 240V that the compressor runs off in the garage. What I am trying to figure out is if it is 240V split phase or single phase, because if it is split phase then I am planning on running a 4 wire cord to the box to power my setup, that way I can run the 240V circuit off of it (after adding a GFCI breaker of course) and break one hot leg off to power the 120V circuit that the pumps work off of.

See the picture below for what I currently have and see if you guys can help me figure out how to set this up. When I measure between line 1 and 2 I get ~240V, when I measure between line 1 and line 3 or line 2 and line 3 I get ~120V. What is stumping me is I only have 3 lines coming into this panel, so if I wanted to run both 240V and 120V on the same cord coming out of this box, how would I wire that up?

 

[kwilson16]

240V is created by the differential between two legs (1 & 2 in your picture). #3 is your neutral bar so each leg (1 & 2) will have a 120V differential with #3. You will be able to use either leg for a 120V circuit (e.g. pump).

You might be able to replace that 50A breaker with a 50A GFCI breaker. Might be worth hiring an electrician since there is some legacy work (compressor would need to disconnected) that has been done and it is hard to determine the entire circuit.

 

[Semicole]

240V is created by the differential between two legs (1 & 2 in your picture). #3 is your neutral bar so each leg (1 & 2) will have a 120V differential with #3. You will be able to use either leg for a 120V circuit (e.g. pump).

You might be able to replace that 50A breaker with a 50A GFCI breaker. Might be worth hiring an electrician since there is some legacy work (compressor would need to disconnected) that has been done and it is hard to determine the entire circuit.

That makes complete sense, the thing that I was having trouble putting together would be where I would get my ground from if doing it that way. I need to run a ground, N, L1 and L2 from this panel to my brew setup, so since there are seemingly no grounds in this box and only a neutral bus, where do I get a ground? I know in many instances neutral and ground are one and the same, but this is a crucial safety point so I want to make sure I do it correctly.

Also this is a GE panel with GE breakers, but I found a few SIEMENS 50A GFCI breakers on CLIST near me for like $10. Could I use one of those or are they not interchangeable?

 

[doug293cz]

That panel has two circuits connected to the 240V breaker. And one of the circuits appears to have undersized wire! I can't imagine code allows that.

Brew on

 

[Semicole]

That panel has two circuits connected to the 240V breaker. I can't imagine code allows that.

Brew on

Oh believe me I know. The guy that built this house and that I rent it from was a real McGuyver. I’ve ran into a lot of weird issues like this inside the house too. He had no business building a house on his own lol.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, if your home was required to be wired using BX cable, the metal sheath is the safety ground.
My area doesn't require BX aside from exposed wire runs, but down in NYC everything in the walls has to be BX, and that's where I learned about the grounding thing. Have to say I was surprised but that's how they roll...

Cheers!

 

[kwilson16]

The other possible issue is that the

That makes complete sense, the thing that I was having trouble putting together would be where I would get my ground from if doing it that way. I need to run a ground, N, L1 and L2 from this panel to my brew setup, so since there are seemingly no grounds in this box and only a neutral bus, where do I get a ground? I know in many instances neutral and ground are one and the same, but this is a crucial safety point so I want to make sure I do it correctly.

Also this is a GE panel with GE breakers, but I found a few SIEMENS 50A GFCI breakers on CLIST near me for like $10. Could I use one of those or are they not interchangeable?

I don't think the grounds and neutrals are supposed to be combined at any location other than the main service panel so that's another issue depicted in the photo with the grounds and neutrals going to the same bar. Need an electrician, but it appears that you everything required to run a 240V brewery circuit with a 120V circuit for the pump. You might need to create a valid neutral.

Again, need an electrician to sort out the faulty, old work.

 

[kwilson16]

That panel has two circuits connected to the 240V breaker. And one of the circuits appears to have undersized wire! I can't imagine code allows that.

Brew on

I think he used that smaller wire to pull a 110 circuit off one leg, but I agree that there are some issues to fix.

 

[doug293cz]

I think he used that smaller wire to pull a 110 circuit off one leg, but I agree that there are some issues to fix.

Nope, the second circuit is 240V, no neutral. Trace the wires. And both 240V circuits have 120V on with white wire, which is supposed to be neutral. For the "legit" 240V circuit, they cut short the red wire, which should have been used instead of the white wire for the second hot.

Brew on

 

[kwilson16]

Nope, the second circuit is 240V, no neutral. Trace the wires. And both 240V circuits have 120V on with white wire, which is supposed to be neutral. For the "legit" 240V circuit, they cut short the red wire, which should have been used instead of the white wire for the second hot.

Brew on

Ah yeah. I see what you’re saying. The white hots are a no go. should be red.

 

[Bobby_M]

There's no problem running 240v L2 on white wires though wrapping them with black or red tape is a typical courtesy. The problem is running multiple circuits off the same breaker with wire at an ampacity lower than the breaker. One of those romex lines could potentially pull 40 amps and start a fire without the breaker ever tripping.

Where is the 3rd wire on the incoming conduit? I see the two large black wires terminating on the buss terminals but where is the 3rd? It's possible I don't see it but if it exists it's being used as both a ground and neutral.

 

[Semicole]

There's no problem running 240v L2 on white wires though wrapping them with black or red tape is a typical courtesy. The problem is running multiple circuits off the same breaker with wire at an ampacity lower than the breaker. One of those romex lines could potentially pull 40 amps and start a fire without the breaker ever tripping.

Where is the 3rd wire on the incoming conduit? I see the two large black wires terminating on the buss terminals but where is the 3rd? It's possible I don't see it but if it exists it's being used as both a ground and neutral.

The third wire is coming in and terminating at the neutral bus bar, it’s the wire I have labeled as “3” in the photo. What I’m considering doing is just running another wire from the main panel neutral/ground bus bar to serve as the correct ground for all of the grounds in this sub panel. It will be my cheapest, safest, and easiest option since the sub panel is only ~20ft away from the main panel. It will also correct the neutral and grounds being tied together in the sub panel as well which is a no no.

 

[Harleybrew32]

looks like the third wire has a wrap of green tape on it going under the terminal bus, telling me its a ground. that romex looks like a 10-3 which is only good for 30amps, if they have that third wire hooked to only a ground lug in the main panel. you will need a neutral hooked up to that panel. how far away is the main panel? you could pull one wire out with a rope on it and tape the old wire back on and add a number 8 for the ground and use the original as the neutral. worst case pull them all out and pull them back in with a #6. If your not comfortable with electricity call a licensed electrician.
edit: posted while you answered some of my questions

 

[Semicole]

looks like the third wire has a wrap of green tape on it going under the terminal bus, telling me its a ground. that romex looks like a 10-3 which is only good for 30amps, if they have that third wire hooked to only a ground lug in the main panel. you will need a neutral hooked up to that panel. how far away is the main panel? you could pull one wire out with a rope on it and tape the old wire back on and add a number 8 for the ground and use the original as the neutral. worst case pull them all out and pull them back in with a #6. If your not comfortable with electricity call a licensed electrician.
edit: posted while you answered some of my questions

Yeah that was pretty much exactly what I was thinking about doing. I don’t mind doing it myself, it should be fairly safe to turn the main breaker off since I’m just adding a neutral/ground and won’t be messing with any of the lines.