EarthBound
Well-Known Member
After I'm done building my NG brewstand, I want to be able to run it on propane if I feel so inclined. What do YOU think?
Natural Gas and Propane Hybrid
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DustinHickey
Well-Known Member
As an engineer, I would make sure that the burners / regulators / associated equipment is meant for both gasses. Also, they have different BTU charectoristics depending on your location (natural gas supplier) so there is some difference in the two. I would do a bit of research before doing so.
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EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply! I agree that the equipment should be meant for both gasses. I am using ASCO valves, black iron pipe, and 10-tip round nozzle jet burners. I know that the valves and pipe are good for both gasses. The burners are made for NG, but I'm sure there's a way to alter the size of the inlet to allow propane.
The difference in BTUs is a negligible issue for me. I am only concerned with the possibility (and implementation, hopefully) of using either NG or propane.
I am sure that it's possible to switch between gasses. I should just be able to install/uninstall some kind of adapter for the burners. I know that there are NG adapters for propane burners, so there should be propane adapters for NG burners, right?
Also, I just want to see if anyone has done it or seen it done it before.
The difference in BTUs is a negligible issue for me. I am only concerned with the possibility (and implementation, hopefully) of using either NG or propane.
I am sure that it's possible to switch between gasses. I should just be able to install/uninstall some kind of adapter for the burners. I know that there are NG adapters for propane burners, so there should be propane adapters for NG burners, right?
Also, I just want to see if anyone has done it or seen it done it before.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
I am sure that it's possible to switch between gasses. I should just be able to install/uninstall some kind of adapter for the burners. I know that there are NG adapters for propane burners, so there should be propane adapters for NG burners, right?
Also, I just want to see if anyone has done it or seen it done it before.
You will need to purchase a new set of nozzles for your ring burners. If you purchased the natural gas version of the ring burner, the orifice on the nozzles are larger than the propane version.
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EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Sawdustguy! I was hoping to see your reply. Are you talking about the tips, i.e., the 10 "outlets?" If so, that would make sense, but I wonder who sells them. Do you think I would have to modify the inlet of the NG ring burner with some kind of adapter that increases the pressure of the gas? If so, I wonder who sells them.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
I accidentally dropped once of my burners when I installed it and I broke a couple of tips. I bought some new ones and found a place that sells them ridiculously cheap. Give me a little time to find my reciept and I will post the vendor for you.
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EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Guy! I look forward to checking out that vendor, and I look forward to working on such a unique project. I haven't found anyone on here who has done this. Maybe I'll be the first. I see your a EE. I am a EE, as well, so mad props! Fo ril.
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EarthBound
Well-Known Member
Any updates on who the vendor is for the tips?
Just FYI, I bought my burners here: <http://www.cpapc.com/23-Tip-Round-Nozzle-Jet-Burner-natural-gas-P469C244.aspx>.
I'm gonna do the 10 tip thing that this guy does here: <https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/natural-gas-brew-stand-23-tip-burner-10-tip-conversion-build-91020/>.
Just FYI, I bought my burners here: <http://www.cpapc.com/23-Tip-Round-Nozzle-Jet-Burner-natural-gas-P469C244.aspx>.
I'm gonna do the 10 tip thing that this guy does here: <https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/natural-gas-brew-stand-23-tip-burner-10-tip-conversion-build-91020/>.
I bought tips at the same site:
https://www.cpapc.com/store/Round-Nozzle-For-Jet-Burners-P2364C244.aspx
for 79 cents each! Of course, the shipping will cost more than the parts. I bought 15, to make the shipping worthwhile, and because guys in the club keep breaking tips on the 1 barrel rig I built for club brews.
https://www.cpapc.com/store/Round-Nozzle-For-Jet-Burners-P2364C244.aspx
for 79 cents each! Of course, the shipping will cost more than the parts. I bought 15, to make the shipping worthwhile, and because guys in the club keep breaking tips on the 1 barrel rig I built for club brews.
You might want to think about going with hurricane burners, since you would only have to change one orifice per burner.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
Thanks Fletch, that is where I bought my extra nozzles from but couldn't find my reciepts. They are the best price anywhere. Everyone else wants $7.00 per nozzle.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
Maybe because it is easier to just change the tips rather than to de-plumb the burner every time he wants to change gas types.
samc
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be easier to buy a second set of burners and just swap them out with a union fitting or some kind of quick disconnect fitting?
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
I would say so, but it depends on his finances.
Bret86944
Well-Known Member
You can build a burner that works with both gasses. You won't have to swap any fittings if you build it right. I know they make boilers that run on either...
brewnickbrew
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of the same thing for my Brutus down the line. I thought maybe it would be easier to swap out the burners as opposed to messing up the threads in the cast iron to the nozzles. (Only because I heard it can happen due to it's brittleness)
Mine are set up for propane, but since I am on a N.G. budget plan, I can use almost as much as I need and still pay the same price per month but, I still want the portability of my Brutus.
HopHead24
Well-Known Member
I got my burners ($20) for my Brutus here....
http://www.asianfoodservice.com/Mer...FS&Product_Code=KECAB006&Category_Code=KECABJ
I'm in the process of building the monster in my basement to escape the Frigid MN winters. I am running natural gas and am looking for a vent that will handle these burners. Does anyone have a way to calculate the needed air exchange for these monsters. I'm thinking a vent hood with 300-400 cfm.
http://www.asianfoodservice.com/Mer...FS&Product_Code=KECAB006&Category_Code=KECABJ
I'm in the process of building the monster in my basement to escape the Frigid MN winters. I am running natural gas and am looking for a vent that will handle these burners. Does anyone have a way to calculate the needed air exchange for these monsters. I'm thinking a vent hood with 300-400 cfm.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
When we remodeled our kitchen and installed a 36" Viking range with (4) 15000 BTU Burners and a griddle, viking recommended we install a 900 CFM blower and range hood. If the burners truely put out 175,000 BTU, that 300 to 400 CFM blower is not even close. My guess would be 1500 CFM minimum.
DustinHickey
Well-Known Member
I am a plumbing and sprinkler engineer and have worked on quite a few projects involving boilers and domestic hot water heaters. With large loads requiring a good deal of make up air there are a lot of problems to solve. you should find out what fuel gas code your town falls under and read through the combustion air and ventilation requirements. The cfm / air change requirements are usually calculated via btu input of all gas fired equipment in the room in question (not the output). I could tell you what it would be for ny but am not in the office atm. Just make sure you do it right or you can create dangerous conditions down there. Also, remember that when you take air out of a space, it has to be made up somehow. That being said you will need a source of combustion air as well as exhaust. This can create problems when you bring in enough unheated air in the winter for your pipes to freeze. Most commercial applications have heating units devoted solely to make up air for large volume situations. Either that or all the pipes are insulated and heat traced. Anyway, all im saying is that it is a pretty big project so make sure you do the research beforehand.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
Excellent post!
Marsdude
Well-Known Member
Isn't the regulator requirements different for propane and NG?
I dimly remember installing a gas appliance that required me to unscrew the cap of the regulator and flip the valve inside over for propane use. So long ago that I don't really remember the details.
I dimly remember installing a gas appliance that required me to unscrew the cap of the regulator and flip the valve inside over for propane use. So long ago that I don't really remember the details.
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
If the user is going to use propane he will need a regulator. He will have to decide whether he will need a high pressure or low pressure regulator depending on his gas valves and his choice of burner. On the natural gas side, it he takes his gas after the meter, I don't believe he will need a regulator.
northernlad
Well-Known Member
Some cities require heated make up air and that shyt aint cheap, but i digress...
. You might be able to cold call a company like Captive Aire with your ventilation question. They do all of our calcs based on the equipment and duct length alone.
If not, 1500 CFm sounds about right. You will also want to figure in the distance from the burners to the fan. the farther away they are the less effective the exhaust will be.
The NG may be delivered at too high a pressure for his burners to operate efficiently even if it is just 1 or 2 WC.
A dual regulator can be purchased. A couple companies I deal with ship their gas equipment with one for easy conversion.
You should only need to change the orifice. The tips don't usually care what gas is flowing. Best to call the manufacturer and ask. You probably would have had the answer to your question by now.
DustinHickey
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys.
Regarding the above =
I am not saying that the make up air has to be heated. This is only the case when large volumes of combustion air are required and there are items / piping / equipment in the area that are sensitive to cold. MN is a very cold place in the winter so it may pose a problem for the original poster.
Also, I don't know exactly what the btu inputs for your loads are so it may me minimal enough for you to get away without heating the combustion air or without providing a dedicated combustion air intake (assuming you could draw enough from the adjacent spaces)
Aside from that, as previously stated, if you are exhausting 1500 cfm from a space, it has to be made up somewhere. You can have a fan rated for 1500 cfm but that doesnt mean it will pull 1500 cfm from a space unless it can be made up somewhere else. It can be done from adjacent spaces (if the load is small enough) or a combustion air intake from the outside. Sizing a fan is the same as sizing a pump except that instead of GPM and Feet of head, we size with Static pressure and CFM. Without any open free area to the outdoors dedicated to introducing combustion air to the space, the static pressure would be increased on the system giving us less CFM through the space. Going the oposite way, the larger the free space to the outdoors via louver or duct, the more cfm you would get with the same fan.
1500 CFM is a descent amount of air, I don't see where you would pull this from without a dedicated intake or maybe running the system with your cellar door open and some windows open upstairs?
It's best you check the local fuel gas code. They explain different ways of introducing combustion air for different applications.
Dustin Hickey
northernlad
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply the city would require him, just that they often require it for commercial applications.
If you have a 100,000sf building you would not need makeup air for 1500cfm. My guess is you don't have more than 1000sf. Make up air can be accomplished as simply as putting a louvered intake somewhere. Gravity keeps it closed except when there is negative pressure in the building then it allows air in. You could look to somebody like Grainger for your fans and a simple intake.
If you are exhausting through a duct, the size and length will determine the static pressure and whether or not your fan will pull what it is rated. If you vent directly out a wall, you will not have this problem.
If you have a 100,000sf building you would not need makeup air for 1500cfm. My guess is you don't have more than 1000sf. Make up air can be accomplished as simply as putting a louvered intake somewhere. Gravity keeps it closed except when there is negative pressure in the building then it allows air in. You could look to somebody like Grainger for your fans and a simple intake.
If you are exhausting through a duct, the size and length will determine the static pressure and whether or not your fan will pull what it is rated. If you vent directly out a wall, you will not have this problem.
HopHead24
Well-Known Member
Wow I opened up a big-o-can of worms. I do have fresh air intake for the furnace across the hall from the brew room. It will be cold air but have not had any problems with plumbing even when the temp drops to -40 at times. I plan on extending the 8" tubing into the brew room when brewing to replace the air. I still have not figured out how to get a 1500 cfm exhaust without breaking the bank.
Would a fan from a furnace work? Any suggestions?
DustinHickey
Well-Known Member
It's cool man, friendly discussion.
Agreed, depending on the application and building. The original poster is planning on brewing in his basement. I would assume a small relatively confined space but don't know for sure.
Yes the length and size of the duct will effect the static pressure at a certain cfm but the amount of open area allowing new fresh air into the room will also effect this because it is restricting flow the same way a duct would. Even the weight of the barometric damper you are refering to would have an equivilent static pressure value.
All in all I am just saying that there is a good deal to be taken into account when thinking about brewing in your basement / any other confined area. It can be as simple as opening windows or extremely difficult where fans and intakes need to be installed depending on the situation and capacity of equipment in the room. All of these factors should be planned out before getting serious about building such a space for safe operation of high BTU input equipment.
That is why most manufacturers of brew sculpures / burners use the disclaimer "for outdoor use only"
Sawdustguy
Well-Known Member
I used to have these exact same burners and they worked fine with the 5 WC I measured at the output after my meter. The only difference I can see is that I am using a Honeywell Intermittent Pilot System utilizing a VR8304 gas valve which I believe has it's own regulator in it. The advantage of using the VR8304 is that the internal regulator is adjustable where usually the only adjustment these burners have is a ball valve installed before the burner. On the other hand Lonnie Mack of Brutus 10 and 20 fame uses jet burners fed by simple Asco solenoid valves without regulators without caveat so I am pretty sure these will work fine.
DustinHickey
Well-Known Member
One more word of advice.
If your planning on installing this exhaust system, make sure there are no atmospheric type boilers, burners, or domestic hot water heaters in the room. The negative pressure from the exhaust system will suck cumbustion products out of the unit into your basement rather than letting them travel up the flue and to the atmosphere as intended.
-Dustin
If your planning on installing this exhaust system, make sure there are no atmospheric type boilers, burners, or domestic hot water heaters in the room. The negative pressure from the exhaust system will suck cumbustion products out of the unit into your basement rather than letting them travel up the flue and to the atmosphere as intended.
-Dustin
HopHead24
Well-Known Member
Score!!!!
I scored this SS hood on an online auction for $180 as well as a 1500 cfm wall fan for $30. I will start with the hood and see if its enough for the basement brewery. It is rated at 900 cfm. If not I'll add the wall fan and disconnect the fan in the SS hood.
I scored this SS hood on an online auction for $180 as well as a 1500 cfm wall fan for $30. I will start with the hood and see if its enough for the basement brewery. It is rated at 900 cfm. If not I'll add the wall fan and disconnect the fan in the SS hood.
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