My Quest for Real Ale

[kirkpierce]

Hi, everyone, and thanks for helping me come this far! This forum has been a valuable source of info for me in this new home brewing hobby. I've finally learned something that others may not yet know, so it's time to contribute.

Got interested in home brewing after our first trip to England where I discovered Real Ale, and how different (and to my tastes, better) it is from anything available in the States. At least here in Florida!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

In my opinion British Bitter is the best beer in the world. It’s so simple but so diverse in appearance and taste. Having drunk it for about 55 years I would say it’s so much better now than when I started. Have you got plenty of recipes and ingredients. My advice would be
1. Use British Malts.
2. Use mainly British's hops but some like Cascade and Willamette go well with bitters.
3. Use British yeasts liquid or dry. I only use dry.
4. Get the water profile right for your brew.

 

[DuncB]

A brilliant beer style and not as easy as it sounds.

You may have been lurking on this thread

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/

Plenty of help on that thread, if I'm ever in Florida hopefully an oasis of real ale to find.

 

[kirkpierce]

I'm only just getting started. My first ever batch was an extract kit that I bottled, just to get my feet wet. The second batch was an all-grain kit that went into a cubitainer, but ended up mostly flat because I vented too much CO2 and conditioned too warm and too long. My third batch will be a SMaSH with Maris Otter malt and East Kent Goldings, ferment at 70F and condition and serve at 50F, once my fridge situation is sorted (see my story in the "How to find coolant lines..." thread!) Then I'll build from there.

Small batches, brewed often.

 

[An Ankoù]

Got interested in home brewing after our first trip to England where I discovered Real Ale, and how different (and to my tastes, better) it is from anything available in the States. At least here in Florida!

Real ale is a strange beast and I agree with @Cheshire Cat that it's the best. It can also be awful.
It's not just the making, but the conditioning, keeping and drinking that make it unique.
To start with, the style is very wide: light-coloured summer beers to porters and stouts.
The beer is brewed as normal and, when ready, the green beer is racked into a cask (a keg which can take a pressure, but is only fitted with a bung hole and a tap hole). Both holes are hard bunged and the beer is transported to condition and carbonate in the pub cellar.
The beer is live, its like beer you might rack into a secondary fermenter.
The casks are stillaged. When ready, the hard bung in the bung hole is hammered into the cask by knocking a porous bung into its place. This vents the cask and allows the ingress of air as the beer is drawn. A tap is hammered into the tap hole, displacing the bung there.
As soon as the cask is broached we have about 3 or 4 days to drink it as the oxygen in the drawn-in air begins to change the beer. You can taste the difference between a newly broached cask, a half full one and a fresh, but nearly empty one
All are good. The last pint should be as good as the first.
Hence, cask ale is pub ale: it needs drinking. In our culture, we rarely have a single pint (of 20 fluid ounces, not 16) but "several".
The same ale put into a bottle is not the same beer even though it's bottle conditioned. Leaving it for half an hour in the glass is as close as you'll get.
I think you need a culture of real ale drinkers for the style to be successful. The barman/woman too, needs to be an excellent cellarman/woman.

I should add, thanks for highlighting this style, and pointvout that you'll never find proper real ale aboard ship.

 

[kirkpierce]

Spot on. My plan is to brew small batches (3 gallons) and condition and serve from the collapsible cubitainer (polypin) so oxygen doesn't get in and the beer stays fresh longer. And drink it in short order. And I can't remember the last time I only had one beer. I'm no quitter!

 

[DuncB]

@An Ankoù
You probably could get a good pint of Fullers ESB on cask on an ocean liner.
If they could care for the cask because it is sent out bright.

@kirkpiece

Consider beer in a bag as another option.

This channel has a lot about craft beer and they are a good watch.
I've made the five points bitter as per the recipe and it's really good.
Wonderful visiting the brewery a couple of years ago.

 

[Miraculix]

Real ale is a strange beast and I agree with @Cheshire Cat that it's the best. It can also be awful.
It's not just the making, but the conditioning, keeping and drinking that make it unique.
To start with, the style is very wide: light-coloured summer beers to porters and stouts.
The beer is brewed as normal and, when ready, the green beer is racked into a cask (a keg which can take a pressure, but is only fitted with a bung hole and a tap hole). Both holes are hard bunged and the beer is transported to condition and carbonate in the pub cellar.
The beer is live, its like beer you might rack into a secondary fermenter.
The casks are stillaged. When ready, the hard bung in the bung hole is hammered into the cask by knocking a porous bung into its place. This vents the cask and allows the ingress of air as the beer is drawn. A tap is hammered into the tap hole, displacing the bung there.
As soon as the cask is broached we have about 3 or 4 days to drink it as the oxygen in the drawn-in air begins to change the beer. You can taste the difference between a newly broached cask, a half full one and a fresh, but nearly empty one
All are good. The last pint should be as good as the first.
Hence, cask ale is pub ale: it needs drinking. In our culture, we rarely have a single pint (of 20 fluid ounces, not 16) but "several".
The same ale put into a bottle is not the same beer even though it's bottle conditioned. Leaving it for half an hour in the glass is as close as you'll get.
I think you need a culture of real ale drinkers for the style to be successful. The barman/woman too, needs to be an excellent cellarman/woman.

I should add, thanks for highlighting this style, and pointvout that you'll never find proper real ale aboard ship.

I don't like the term real ale, there's some weird thing going on with this in the UK. Banning of adjuncts and sugars to label it real ale... Basically ignoring ones own traditions to label it traditional?

... But that's not what you're talking about and I fully agree with everything what you've said.

 

[bike2brew]

My quest is simply to reliably produce ale that doesn't immediately taste "like home made beer" with the various off flavors and production related defects". The resilience required to bounce back from a disappointing batch to production of an enjoyable and outstanding brew is enough to try the patience of Job.

Good luck on the quest. Some say the journey is better than arriving. I like both but often wish the trail wasn't so steep and rocky.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I don't like the term real ale, there's some weird thing going on with this in the UK. Banning of adjuncts and sugars to label it real ale... Basically ignoring ones own traditions to label it traditional?

... But that's not what you're talking about and I fully agree with everything what you've said.

I hate the term real ale too. There’s only two types of beer, good and bad. I also don’t like the term Ale, we drink beer which is hopped.

 

[An Ankoù]

Basically ignoring ones own traditions to label it traditional?

You've hit the nail on the head, there. Real ale is a term concocted by CAMRA (campaign for real ale). They did a lot of good when beer quality was poor, but they became a self appointed style police that we could have done well without.
I dont think they condemned brewing sugar, though.

 

[Miraculix]

You've hit the nail on the head, there. Real ale is a term concocted by CAMRA (campaign for real ale). They did a lot of good when beer quality was poor, but they became a self appointed style police that we could have done well without.
I dont think they condemned brewing sugar, though.

I thought that @Northern_Brewer once said something about them banning invert, but I could be wrong.

 

[bike2brew]

I hate the term real ale too. There’s only two types of beer, good and bad. I also don’t like the term Ale, we drink beer which is hopped.

My bad on that. I use the term loosely to differentiate beer with top fermented yeast @ warm (>60) temperature from bottom fermented yeast @ lager ( ~50) temperature. Perhaps another term for this functional dichotomy? Fully agree w/ "real" as opposed to unreal, fake, not genuine, etc

 

[Wigglebutts Brewery]

As you progress down this road, I suggest you start the quest for a beer engine; I got one on a caskerator and another for travel. Also I use a propane regulator to backfill with CO2 at 0.5 psi. I’m looking for a double beer engine set up so I have two options.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't like the term real ale, there's some weird thing going on with this in the UK. Banning of adjuncts and sugars to label it real ale... Basically ignoring ones own traditions to label it traditional?

You've hit the nail on the head, there. Real ale is a term concocted by CAMRA (campaign for real ale). They did a lot of good when beer quality was poor, but they became a self appointed style police that we could have done well without.
I dont think they condemned brewing sugar, though.

I thought that @Northern_Brewer once said something about them banning invert, but I could be wrong.

CAMRA only use "real ale" to mean beer that is "naturally" carbonated (ie by yeast) - so normally cask-conditioned, but also applies to bottle-conditioned and even can-conditioned - as it was presumably felt too complicated to explain cellar management to the ordinary Joe. Most people don't realise that it's the product of a backronym - the organisation was originally the Campaign for the Revitalisation of Ale before they changed it. But strictly "real ale" applies just to carbonation and not the other ingredients.

You have to understand that the founders of CAMRA were less bothered about CO2 than about a feeling that the beer from The Good Old Days had been replaced by Modern Rubbish, and so everything to do with modern industrial beer must be a Bad Thing.

Industrial beer was kegged, therefore cask beer was Good.
Industrial beer used adjuncts, therefore adjuncts were Bad.

The fact that adjuncts had long been used by British brewers, and were essential to the flavour of some traditional styles like dark mild, was ignored in their haste to disparage anything that smacked of industrial brewing. So CAMRA never "banned" sugars and other adjuncts as such, but they have been generally opposed to them, and the cask-led brewers have taken the hint and increasingly gone towards all-grain for their mainstream beers.

My bad on that. I use the term loosely to differentiate beer with top fermented yeast @ warm (>60) temperature from bottom fermented yeast @ lager ( ~50) temperature. Perhaps another term for this functional dichotomy?

Don't sweat it, that's the sense in which it is generally used today, the fact that it was used to denote brewing without hops 500 years ago is irrelevant today. Although to be honest, the yeast thing doesn't stand up too well once you get into the detail - there are commercial "lagers" brewed with ale yeast (even members of the saison family) and "ales" brewed with lager yeast like the misnamed WLP051 California V Ale Yeast. And then most of the ale yeast strains from the big US yeast labs have been harvested from the bottom of conical tanks so no longer top ferment. But apart from that....

Oh one other thing - 50°F is a touch on the cool side, Cask Marque recommend 11–13°C (52–55°F) and I'm sure CAMRA used to say 12-14°C but now seem to have fallen in line with Cask Marque. Every degree makes a difference - I know a town where there's two "good" pubs, but one keeps their cellar at the bottom of the range and the other at the top of the range, and you can tell the difference. But I get that in your part of the world air temperature can be a bit higher than is normal in the UK.

 

[An Ankoù]

CAMRA really are Johny come latelies. You must think we're daft this side of the Pond, but these are the real traditionalists.

The last time I had a pint from a wooden barrel, the barman drew the beer into a jug from which he filled my glass. It was draught Bass, if i remember right, and it wasn't especially good even though everyone was drinking it.

 

[mac_1103]

Nothing says "traditional" quite like a 3D barcode.

 

[DuncB]

As you progress down this road, I suggest you start the quest for a beer engine; I got one on a caskerator and another for travel. Also I use a propane regulator to backfill with CO2 at 0.5 psi. I’m looking for a double beer engine set up so I have two options.
View attachment 867843

Post in thread 'How to find coolant lines in mini Fridge/Cooler?' https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...es-in-mini-fridge-cooler.735381/post-10441259

Looks like on the journey already.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

Real ale is a strange beast and I agree with @Cheshire Cat that it's the best. It can also be awful.
It's not just the making, but the conditioning, keeping and drinking that make it unique.
To start with, the style is very wide: light-coloured summer beers to porters and stouts.
The beer is brewed as normal and, when ready, the green beer is racked into a cask (a keg which can take a pressure, but is only fitted with a bung hole and a tap hole). Both holes are hard bunged and the beer is transported to condition and carbonate in the pub cellar.
The beer is live, its like beer you might rack into a secondary fermenter.
The casks are stillaged. When ready, the hard bung in the bung hole is hammered into the cask by knocking a porous bung into its place. This vents the cask and allows the ingress of air as the beer is drawn. A tap is hammered into the tap hole, displacing the bung there.
As soon as the cask is broached we have about 3 or 4 days to drink it as the oxygen in the drawn-in air begins to change the beer. You can taste the difference between a newly broached cask, a half full one and a fresh, but nearly empty one
All are good. The last pint should be as good as the first.
Hence, cask ale is pub ale: it needs drinking. In our culture, we rarely have a single pint (of 20 fluid ounces, not 16) but "several".
The same ale put into a bottle is not the same beer even though it's bottle conditioned. Leaving it for half an hour in the glass is as close as you'll get.
I think you need a culture of real ale drinkers for the style to be successful. The barman/woman too, needs to be an excellent cellarman/woman.

I should add, thanks for highlighting this style, and pointvout that you'll never find proper real ale aboard ship.

in the UK most pubs are struggling and cannot empty a cask in 3 days - so they serve it until cask is empty - at that stage it is stale and possibly vinegary - so customers abandon ship in favour of supermarket beer at UKP 1.70 for 500 ml bottle - pubs close and are often converted to housing...sobs.

 

[An Ankoù]

@An Ankoù
You probably could get a good pint of Fullers ESB on cask on an ocean liner.
If they could care for the cask because it is sent out bright.

Is it now. I didn't know that.
On the other hand, they could use a gimbal. Ships are very used to using gimbals for their navigating equipment and in the kitchen. Imagine making chips in a heavy swell!

 

[kirkpierce]

Post in thread 'How to find coolant lines in mini Fridge/Cooler?' https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...es-in-mini-fridge-cooler.735381/post-10441259

Looks like on the journey already.

Yes! And quite overdue for an update.

I've had some success developing my "baseline" recipe, using Maris Otter malt, East Kent Goldings hops and Lalbrew Windsor yeast. After experiencing and then reading about Windsor (lower attenuation and low flocculation -- I know what those mean now!) I switched to Nottingham yeast which should produce closer to what I'm after.

My next batch was tasty but "green". I need to learn more about proper conditioning. I've been watching the gravity numbers daily during fermentation, and when they stay the same for three days in a row, I call it done and ready to transfer to my "cask", a 2.5 gallon cubitainer. I might extend that timing some.

I've been adding priming sugar at this step, aiming for 1.5 volumes of CO2. The cubitainer swells up tight in its cardboard box, so I vent it when it gets scary. Then move from 70F to 50F for more time before it's served. My uncertainty is how long to condition at 70F? How long to condition at 50F?

I think I've solved the scary inflation of the cubitainer, though-- I found a "spunding valve" at Morebeer that will release pressure above a certain set point, so I should be able to "set it and forget it". The equilibrium pressure for 1.5 volumes at 50F is about 7 psi, as far I can tell, so that's my target.

Has anyone found *any* information about how much pressure a cubitainer can take?

To calibrate the valve, I decided to risk a cubitainer and inflated it with an air pump. At 7.5 psi the cardboard glue starts to make ripping sounds. I stopped at 8.5 (see pic) and set the valve to vent down to 7. I'm happy to report no explosions! I'll reinforce the cardboard box with strapping tape to help it last across multiple uses.

My next batch, starting probably today, will ferment for about a week (as long as there's still three days of constant gravity), condition at 70F for a week, then at 50F for a week before serving. This will be longer conditioning than previous batches, which will hopefully improve it.

Wish me luck!

K

 

[TexasTea]

Those cubitainers are neat. Thanks for that. I brew ales exclusively (so far) because I like the taste and bottle condition to get it carbed. Maybe not "real ale" by some definitions but for me it's close enough. I do 6 gallon batches (DME, steeped grains etc) and always ferment 2 weeks at 70F +/-2 and bottle condition for another 2 weeks at the same temps. Most likely overkill, but I never had a gusher and it comes out fine. I'm going to try force carbing it a cornykeg so I can put it a kegerator next. Yep, kegerator right next to the rocking chair so all I gotta do is lean to the side and pull on the tap .

I use a refractometer to calculate OG and FG so I save at least a beer per batch. I never felt comfortable pouring the beer back in the fermentor after a reading with a hydrometer so never did that.

 

[kirkpierce]

Those cubitainers are neat. Thanks for that. I brew ales exclusively (so far) because I like the taste and bottle condition to get it carbed. Maybe not "real ale" by some definitions but for me it's close enough. I do 6 gallon batches (DME, steeped grains etc) and always ferment 2 weeks at 70F +/-2 and bottle condition for another 2 weeks at the same temps. Most likely overkill, but I never had a gusher and it comes out fine. I'm going to try force carbing it a cornykeg so I can put it a kegerator next. Yep, kegerator right next to the rocking chair so all I gotta do is lean to the side and pull on the tap .

I use a refractometer to calculate OG and FG so I save at least a beer per batch. I never felt comfortable pouring the beer back in the fermentor after a reading with a hydrometer so never did that.

I've got a refractometer, too, for the same reasons.

I think a good working definition of "real ale" is an ale style (top ferment), carbonated naturally to traditional volumes (1.5-2.0) and served at cellar temps. All the rest (allowed to oxidize, etc.) seems to me impractical, at least for home brewing.

I really like how the cubitainer collapses as you serve, preventing oxygen from getting to the beer. And I'm *very* pleased with my beer engine! Found it on ebay UK, used for about £70 (and another £70 shipping ), but once cleaned up (I refinished the wooden pedestal and polished the metal bits, as well as cleaned/reconditioned all the works) it's a beautiful piece of furniture. And pulls a pint like nothing else. I like to think that if somewhere in England a pub came to a sad end, I was able to preserve a small part of it.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Yes! And quite overdue for an update.

I've had some success developing my "baseline" recipe, using Maris Otter malt, East Kent Goldings hops and Lalbrew Windsor yeast. After experiencing and then reading about Windsor (lower attenuation and low flocculation -- I know what those mean now!) I switched to Nottingham yeast which should produce closer to what I'm after.

My next batch was tasty but "green". I need to learn more about proper conditioning. I've been watching the gravity numbers daily during fermentation, and when they stay the same for three days in a row, I call it done and ready to transfer to my "cask", a 2.5 gallon cubitainer. I might extend that timing some.

I've been adding priming sugar at this step, aiming for 1.5 volumes of CO2. The cubitainer swells up tight in its cardboard box, so I vent it when it gets scary. Then move from 70F to 50F for more time before it's served. My uncertainty is how long to condition at 70F? How long to condition at 50F?

I think I've solved the scary inflation of the cubitainer, though-- I found a "spunding valve" at Morebeer that will release pressure above a certain set point, so I should be able to "set it and forget it". The equilibrium pressure for 1.5 volumes at 50F is about 7 psi, as far I can tell, so that's my target.

Has anyone found *any* information about how much pressure a cubitainer can take?

To calibrate the valve, I decided to risk a cubitainer and inflated it with an air pump. At 7.5 psi the cardboard glue starts to make ripping sounds. I stopped at 8.5 (see pic) and set the valve to vent down to 7. I'm happy to report no explosions! I'll reinforce the cardboard box with strapping tape to help it last across multiple uses.

My next batch, starting probably today, will ferment for about a week (as long as there's still three days of constant gravity), condition at 70F for a week, then at 50F for a week before serving. This will be longer conditioning than previous batches, which will hopefully improve it.

Wish me luck!

K

Pitching both Nottingham and Windsor is recommended by Lallemand and is quite a common practice, apparently. I do it myself. Windsor gives you more English flavour, Nottingham gives you more attenuation and clear beer quicker.

 

[kirkpierce]

Pitching both Nottingham and Windsor is recommended by Lallemand and is quite a common practice, apparently. I do it myself. Windsor gives you more English flavour, Nottingham gives you more attenuation and clear beer quicker.

I'm brewing today-- waiting on the mash at the moment. Do you think 50/50 Windsor and Nottingham? (Windsingham? Nottsor?) I'll give it a try.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm brewing today-- waiting on the mash at the moment. Do you think 50/50 Windsor and Nottingham? (Windsingham? Nottsor?) I'll give it a try.

It works well, but I prefer Nottingham on it's own. I don't think Windsor is a good representation of English flavour. I don't know any dry yeast that is, to be honest.

I'd go with liquid strains if I want English flavour.

 

[kirkpierce]

It works well, but I prefer Nottingham on it's own. I don't think Windsor is a good representation of English flavour. I don't know any dry yeast that is, to be honest.

I'd go with liquid strains if I want English flavour.

Ok, there's a vote in the opposite direction. I'm only using dry yeast so far... perhaps I'll stick with just Nottingham for this one, then I won't have two half-packages lying around. I tend to want to only change one variable at a time. (I'm still at the stage of seeing one batch through to the end before I start the next one. Once I'm comfortable with my timeline I'll stagger multiple batches.)

Just starting the boil, so I've got an hour and a half before I have to decide.

 

[doug293cz]

I've been adding priming sugar at this step, aiming for 1.5 volumes of CO2. The cubitainer swells up tight in its cardboard box, so I vent it when it gets scary. Then move from 70F to 50F for more time before it's served. My uncertainty is how long to condition at 70F? How long to condition at 50F?

I think I've solved the scary inflation of the cubitainer, though-- I found a "spunding valve" at Morebeer that will release pressure above a certain set point, so I should be able to "set it and forget it". The equilibrium pressure for 1.5 volumes at 50F is about 7 psi, as far I can tell, so that's my target.

You are doing your natural carbonation at 70°F, where the pressure required for 1.5 volumes is 12.4 psi, which is probably much more than a cubitainer can handle. The equilibrium pressure for 1.5 volumes at 50°F is 4.7 psi, not 7 psi.

If you spund at 7 psi and 70°F, your carb level will be 1.2 volumes, and if you then chill to 50°F, your carb level will not change much (but the headspace pressure will drop.) 1.2 volumes might be OK for cask ale, but I have no experience with cask ales, so can't recommend a carb level.

Brew on

 

[kirkpierce]

You are doing your natural carbonation at 70°F, where the pressure required for 1.5 volumes is 12.4 psi, which is probably much more than a cubitainer can handle. The equilibrium pressure for 1.5 volumes at 50°F is 4.7 psi, not 7 psi.

If you spund at 7 psi and 70°F, your carb level will be 1.2 volumes, and if you then chill to 50°F, your carb level will not change much (but the headspace pressure will drop.) 1.2 volumes might be OK for cask ale, but I have no experience with cask ales, so can't recommend a carb level.

Brew on

Maybe I should be conditioning at 50F, so I can get to 1.5 volumes without blowing off pressure? That's at the lower end of the Nottingham temperature range.

 

[doug293cz]

Maybe I should be conditioning at 50F, so I can get to 1.5 volumes without blowing off pressure? That's at the lower end of the Nottingham temperature range.

That should work, but will take considerably longer to finish fermenting the priming sugar. If your spunding valve has a pressure gauge, you can monitor that to determine when carbonation is complete.

Brew on

 

[kirkpierce]

That should work, but will take considerably longer to finish fermenting the priming sugar. If your spunding valve has a pressure gauge, you can monitor that to determine when carbonation is complete.

Brew on

Yes it has a gauge. What if I condition at 70F until the gauge gets close to 7psi, then move to 50F? Maybe I'm splitting hairs...?

 

[doug293cz]

Yes it has a gauge. What if I condition at 70F until the gauge gets close to 7psi, then move to 50F? Maybe I'm splitting hairs...?

In theory, that should work, although if you mistime it, you could have an ugly mess. If the pressure build up rate was 1-2 psi per day, it should be manageable, but if much faster, things could go off the rails overnight or while you are at work.

Brew on

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Ok, there's a vote in the opposite direction. I'm only using dry yeast so far... perhaps I'll stick with just Nottingham for this one, then I won't have two half-packages lying around. I tend to want to only change one variable at a time. (I'm still at the stage of seeing one batch through to the end before I start the next one. Once I'm comfortable with my timeline I'll stagger multiple batches.)

Just starting the boil, so I've got an hour and a half before I have to decide.

50/50 is fine. Some people delay the Nottingham a day or two to let the Windsor build the flavour. It's a pretty good combo, and they came out of a multi strain yeast from an English brewery, so they do belong together. And Windsor is English, and to me tastes English. English is a variety of things. Yeasts with flavour, but not all the same.

 

[ntempleton]

It works well, but I prefer Nottingham on it's own. I don't think Windsor is a good representation of English flavour. I don't know any dry yeast that is, to be honest.

I'd go with liquid strains if I want English flavour.

To build on what @Miraculix posted - Nottingham is great if you want to make a clean, low ester beer. But it doesn't make a British beer, to my expectations. Verdant and LalBrew New England would be worth playing with. I've used Cellar Science Hazy, and it's not bad, but it has a phenolic thing I don't care for.

Imperial Pub (A09) is my current favorite, but the last 2 batches I've brewed with it refuse to clear, which is problem I've never experienced with A09. Still, the flavor is what I'm after. You being in Florida, might look into Jasper yeast. Their Fuller's strain sounds pretty good, but being here in the Pacific Northwest, I've not had a chance to play with it.

 

[Miraculix]

All i can say is that I lived in the south of UK for about five years and that I never had a traditional bitter there that reminded me of Windsor or verdant. Verdant is a completely different beast, not classical British at all. It works really well with American hops though. One of my favourite yeasts for a lower abv apa or American bitter or however you wanna call it.

I've had a few cleaner bitters there that could have been fermented with s04 or Nottingham though. But don't ask me for the names...

I'd say, if you cannot do a split batch, first do a batch with Nottingham only, and afterwards throw in a pack of Windsor as well. Then you'll be able to check yourself what it brings to the table and if you like it or not.

Two packs is fine btw. Then you have a healthy amount of yeast and no opened packs flying around.

 

[DuncB]

I've used Windsor once and found it took an age to ferment and clearing was a challenge.
I only see it's role in lower alcohol beer production but there are better alternatives for that role now.

 

[DuncB]

1.2 vols should be okay for cask effect from the cubitainer.
The Dave line tip of putting a heavy brick on the cubitainer as the beer is dispensed is worth remembering.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I agree that Verdant doesn't taste English, which frustrates the hell out of me because the strain started life at the Verdant brewery in England as Wyeast 1318 (London Ale III).

So near and yet so far. A Lallemand employee once confirmed that four strains they have sold separately all came from the same brewery yeast sample. Nottingham, Windsor, London and Manchester iirc. The London and Manchester are no longer produced for sale. Otherwise we could blend the four and recreate that yeast strain combination.

This also informs us that the naming of commercial yeasts is rather creative. Four yeasts from the same place were named with four different places named around the north, middle and south of England. Don't believe the spin!

My opinion is that if you want to make a (pale) English beer with dried yeast, a blend works best, and I tend to use a version of Nottingham (or maybe S-04) with either Windsor or S-33. Verdant at a push. M36 Liberty Bell is probably such a mix, you could try that, it's not bad.

If Lallemand could produce a straight unadulterated dried version of 1318 we could probably put an end to this debate and all live in peace.

We could all write to them asking them to do it! I think I'll do that today.

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

If you’re an AHA member I gave a seminar on brewing English ales at Homebrew Con 2022 in Pittsburgh. https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/seminar/english-ales-from-classics-to-class/

Key takeaways:
1) Pick a base malt you like and let it shine. Most of my recipes are 85-90% base malt.
2) The balance should be crisp, not heavy or malty.

I don’t touch on packaging in the talk. If you’re going for real ale/cask ale, the easiest way is to bottle condition with low carbonation. If kegging, you’ll want a separate cool box/keezer at cellar temperature, and jury rig your keg to gravity dispense if you don’t have a beer engine. A friend wrote a detailed post on this, but I think it’s been taken down.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

English ales aren't uniformly crisp, not on England anyway. But maybe there's a tendency on your side of the pond to go too heavy on the malt, I see malt heavy recipes quite often. Loads of crystal malt for example. So yes, 85-90% base is good for a lot of English ales, I think.

Yeast is important too. It's a struggle with dried yeast, at this point in time. Maybe we will get a better dried English yeast at some point.

I have friends here who serve English ale from cornies. And do a good job of it. If the beer is unpasteurised and unfiltered, and primed in the keg, and there's just enough gas applied to push the beer out of the keg, you can get a good result with English ales, very similar to cask, and I should do it myself. The only tangible difference with cask (off the top of my head) is that CO2 replaces the beer as it is drawn, instead of air. Which is a positive in my eyes.