My beers all taste the same.

[flyfisherwes]

Something in my process is adversely affecting my beer. I'm not certain what is wrong with it, but only 1/7 has been what I would call good. Its a double IPA from an extract kit. It has a big head a full body and has been called good by quite a few folks. The others are lacking and I'm not sure whats up.

The first brew had a similar bad taste at first but after bein in the fridge for a month turned put really really good. It was an Irish red ale.

The rest have had a weird smell and taste that I thought might condition out but just hasn't. I'm not sure how to describe the smell at all but it doesn't smell like beer. It is rather sharp as well. The taste is difficult to describe but I would have to say it seems sour/bitter/yeasty and just off. They all have the same similar off taste. From the blonde ale to the cream ale to the alt bier to the APA. What worries and yet provides some hope for me is that it is the same taste.

My thoughts about what the problem might be are:
Water quality problems
Boil kettle problem (aluminum turkey frier)
Infection
A. I use star San to Sanitize and oxyclean to clean.
B. I wipe the fermenter down a few times with the star San with about a gallon on the inside and leave it sit for a bit.
C. I put the bottles in solution then shake each bottle before I turn it upside down and let it out.
D. I don't let the star San dry completely.
E. I don't rinse the oxyclean solution off before sanitizing.

Something I'm doing wrong when I put the wort in the fermenter. I've only just started straining the wort when I put it in I was pouring in hops and all in the fermenter nearly everything in the boil kettle.
Doing full boils with extract kits
Fermenting at 69 air temp and getting vigorous fermentations.

Another difference in the beer that turned out really good is that I used liquid yeast only. With a starter. Since I've been using dry yeast packets with ferm starting within 12 hrs normally.


My plan so far is to get a stainless kettle and do Biab in stead of extract and follow someone else's process as closely as possible. I have access to free spring water here in WV that I'm going to try by getting buckets of. I'm going to use less potent oxyclean solutions and or rinse in clean water before soaking in the sanitizer.

 

[Yooper]

My very first instinct is to say "water!" Have you tried buying some reverse osmosis water from the store and using just that in one brew? That'd be the very first thing I'd try.

the second thing I think of is that 69 degrees ambient temperature is too high. Do you have a stick-on thermometer so you can monitor the actual fermentation temperature? I've seen active fermentations be 10 degrees higher than the ambient temperature!

 

[PantherCity]

You must rinse the Oxy-clean off completely! It's soap! Star-san is a different story as it is a no-rinse product intended for food and bevarage. Oxy-clean is made for your laundry. I use it all the time but I am very careful to rinse the crap out of it with hot water.

I am guessing that is your problem. Your fermentations are a little on the warm side too. Usually an active ferment is 3-4 degrees above the ambient temp.

I hope that will help.

 

[stratslinger]

E. I don't rinse the oxyclean solution off before sanitizing.

This one sounds awfully suspect to me... Now, I don't know first hand what oxyclean in your beer would taste like - but everything I've read has recommended thorough rinsing of oxyclean (or just about any other cleaner, for that matter).

I'd definitely start rinsing the ocyclean off of anything that will eventually touch your beer - whether or not it has a sanitizer subsequently applied.

 

[Yooper]

This one sounds awfully suspect to me... Now, I don't know first hand what oxyclean in your beer would taste like - but everything I've read has recommended thorough rinsing of oxyclean (or just about any other cleaner, for that matter).

I'd definitely start rinsing the ocyclean off of anything that will eventually touch your beer - whether or not it has a sanitizer subsequently applied.

I didn't see that! Of course, when you clean something you must rinse it. You must clean before you sanitize, so clean the gear with oxyclean if it's dirty, and rinse well with hot water. THEN sanitize.

 

[flyfisherwes]

What are your thought on what it might be/what I should do?

I'm willing to provide samples If you are close.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

rinse your oxyclean.

Control your ferment temperature. Fermentation is EVERYTHING. 69 ambient means is probably close to 79 inside the fermenter during peak activity.

Find a way to control your fermentation temp (control and monitor the temperature of the liquid in the carboy, not the ambient environment), and you'll notice a dramatic improvement in your beer. What kind of pitching rates are you using? Are you making a starter or pitching an appropriate number of vials/smackpacks? Rehydrating dry yeast or just sprinkling it in?

Once again, no matter what we do to make the wort...FERMENTATION IS EVERYTHING. Control your yeast health, pitching rate, and fermentation temperature....you'll control how your beer tastes. Ignore those things and you'll be chasing down off flavors no matter what you do.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

Eww OxyBeer!

Gotta rinse that schmutz outta there!

 

[Pappers_]

Agree on all three points made above:

1. Rinse the soap/oxiclean off thoroughly as a part of your cleaning regime - no soap in your beer!

2. Try RO water in a batch to determine if your water is an issue

3. Ferment a little cooler, low 60s, if you don't have a fermentation chamber or fridge, then you can use a tub with water and frozen juice bottles or a swamp cooler.

Edit: I'm such a slow typer

 

[Yooper]

Buy 5 gallons of reverse osmosis water, just for one batch. This is probably the number one issue- beer is mostly water, and see they all taste the same, I suspect it's water.

Rinse oxyclean and other cleaners well.

Control fermentation temperature! Keep the beer under 70 degrees, either in a cooler place (62-64 is perfect) or by using a water bath with a frozen water bottle in the water bath.

Those three things should fix the issue.

I don't think using spring water from a local spring will fix your problem- as our city water comes from a spring as well and is highly alkaline. It might be chlorine-free, though, which is a benefit if you have chlorine or chloramine in your water.

Edit- I'm even slower than Pappers!

 

[iskuse]

I wash everything with oxyclean, I have never used anything else. I usually keep a bucket of oxyclean solution in a bucket when brewing and everything goes in there after I use it. When I need it again I rinse it off with the hose. I thoroughly rinse everything with the hose before I use it. So far I have not had any off-flavors and every batch has turned out great. I do all my brewing outside, so the hose is right there.

 

[Pappers_]

I wash everything with oxyclean, I have never used anything else. I usually keep a bucket of oxyclean solution in a bucket when brewing and everything goes in there after I use it. When I need it again I rinse it off with the hose. I thoroughly rinse everything with the hose before I use it. So far I have not had any off-flavors and every batch has turned out great. I do all my brewing outside, so the hose is right there.

Do you then sanitize, after the cleaning and rinsing?

 

[flyfisherwes]

Thanks guys. I thought that soaking in the sanitizer wwould be enough of a rinse for the oxyclean but I guess I was wrong. Is there anything I can clean the bottles with and or remove the labels with that I won't have to rinse? I can't express how much I hate to clean and rinse the bottles. I triple rinse the bottles right after I pour a beer to get them mostly clean. Now that I think about it I didn't oxyclean the good batch either. What's weird is that I've tasted the oxyclean water an it tastes like plain water. Haha.

I'm still gonna get a new brew kettle before next brew because I need a bigger one and I want stainless. Shoul I consider the natural spring water that comes from the mountain here? I know a lot o people that get it for their drinking water.

 

[Pappers_]

. . . Edit- I'm even slower than Pappers! . . .

Slower in what way? Typing, perhaps. Cognitive ability, I doubt that - I'm quite dim. 5,700+ posts as evidence of my slow-wittedness

 

[Pappers_]

Is there anything I can clean the bottles with and or remove the labels with that I won't have to rinse? . . .

No way to get around that, at least that I know about.

 

[flyfisherwes]

Wow u guys are great. Answering questions before I can ask. Thanks a bunch.
Will be rinsing oxyclean if I use it. I wish there were a better way though. I mean. I was soaking the bottles in a pretty strong oxyclean solution right before soaking in star san and filling them fillin them. No rinse So that's gotta be it.
Is there anything that I can clean bottles with that I won't have to rinse off? I like to just stick the bottles in a plastic tote with a lid that I've filled with water (and until now oxyclean) that I'd just leave from when I poured that particular beer until brew day. Seemed to get things really clean and saved me scrub time.

 

[Yooper]

No way to get around that, at least that I know about.

But...................if you start with clean bottles, you don't need to reclean them!

What I mean is this- when you drink a homebrew, pour it into a glass and rinse the bottle immediately. It only takes a moment, and then turn it upside down to drain and dry. Store it upside down also so nothing can settle in it. On bottling day, a quick visual inspection and rinse is all you need. Then star-san it (a vinator and bottling tree means 10 minutes total for sanitizing them all!) and bottle. No need to oxyclean/soak/scrub already clean bottles!

When you start with commercial bottles, stick them in a bin of water/oxyclean. Leave them sit until you have enough to make it worthwhile, then scrub them and delabel them and rinse well. Once again, store them upside down until you need them.

"Clean" is clean to your eye, without debris. If something is clean, there is no need to clean it again. Sometimes a quick rinse is all that's needed.

 

[Pappers_]

But...................if you start with clean bottles, you don't need to reclean them! . . .

+1, unless the OP needs to remove labels, and the method you described is exactly what I do, too.

 

[NCBeernut]

Agree with the two posts above me. I pour, triple rinse, dry, then sanitize right before bottling. I will use my bottle brush on them when I start seeing residue build up, which takes a while, but eventually starts to happen. The only time I use Oxyclean is for delabeling new bottles, and I rinse the hell out of em. I agree though - it is a HUGE pain.

 

[flyfisherwes]

I rinse them well right after use always. Could I just stick the bottles in a tote and cover with lid after? Then rinse and sanitize on brew day? I don't mind a little rinse.

Could I get another tote and fill with regular water and transfer the bottles from the oxyclean solution to the regular water and let it sit for weeks at a time to rinse? This may be worse than just rinsin them to start and letting them sit dry.

Oh and I will be trying to control temps better. Winter is coming so it'll be easier. When I get a house I will have a basement and brewing room. Any suggestions on ways to do this without a mess and a fridge are welcomed. I try to ferment 3 batches at a time. So space while cooling is an issue.

 

[flyfisherwes]

How do you guys store them upside down? That sounds dumb. I can find a way but what seems to work well for you? I'm under space restrictions an whatnot.

I mean my question sounds dumb not the fact that u are storing them like that.

 

[Yooper]

I rinse them well right after use always. Could I just stick the bottles in a tote and cover with lid after? Then rinse and sanitize on brew day? I don't mind a little rinse.

Could I get another tote and fill with regular water and transfer the bottles from the oxyclean solution to the regular water and let it sit for weeks at a time to rinse? This may be worse than just rinsin them to start and letting them sit dry.

Oh and I will be trying to control temps better. Winter is coming so it'll be easier. When I get a house I will have a basement and brewing room. Any suggestions on ways to do this without a mess and a fridge are welcomed. I try to ferment 3 batches at a time. So space while cooling is an issue.

Sure, you could put them in a tote. But put them in upside down, just in case a little bit of moisture remains after rinsing. Even a drop of moisture can cause mold and other problems.

I have a probably dumb question- but what is so hard about rinsing the bottles? Why are you so reluctant to do such a minor thing, rinsing the bottles?

Putting them in a tub of fresh water for weeks? Well........water doesn't stay sanitary forever so you'd be soaking oxycleaned (and not rinsed) bottles in a soup of water/bacteria/yeast? Why?????

Soak the bottles as long as you want in oxyclean. Take them out. Rinse. Store upside down. We're talking about a 5 minute job!

 

[flyfisherwes]

Sure, you could put them in a tote. But put them in upside down, just in case a little bit of moisture remains after rinsing. Even a drop of moisture can cause mold and other problems.

I have a probably dumb question- but what is so hard about rinsing the bottles? Why are you so reluctant to do such a minor thing, rinsing the bottles?

Putting them in a tub of fresh water for weeks? Well........water doesn't stay sanitary forever so you'd be soaking oxycleaned (and not rinsed) bottles in a soup of water/bacteria/yeast? Why?????

Soak the bottles as long as you want in oxyclean. Take them out. Rinse. Store upside down. We're talking about a 5 minute job!

I get carried away when I rinse. I do it over and over and over. I agree that soaking in water isn't the best option most likely. I think it'd be easier if I had a way to spray water into the bottles. How do you think the best way to store the bottles upside down?

I think I will start just storing after I triple rinse. Then rinsing again and sanitizing on bottle day. That seems to be the consensus here on the best way.

Thanks everyone. And for you "slow typers" I'm typing on my iPhone so I feel your pain. Haha.

Thanks again.

 

[flyfisherwes]

Anything I can do to test the natural spring water from the mountains to see if it's suitable?

 

[Yooper]

Anything I can do to test the natural spring water from the mountains to see if it's suitable?

You could send a sample to Ward Labs. It's about $16 for a full brewing water profile.

 

[zeekage]

I get carried away when I rinse. I do it over and over and over. I agree that soaking in water isn't the best option most likely. I think it'd be easier if I had a way to spray water into the bottles. How do you think the best way to store the bottles upside down?

I think I will start just storing after I triple rinse. Then rinsing again and sanitizing on bottle day. That seems to be the consensus here on the best way.

Thanks everyone. And for you "slow typers" I'm typing on my iPhone so I feel your pain. Haha.

Thanks again.

If you want to spray water into the bottles, here you go: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produ...=2343&osCsid=b82a0793de31791e4d742dd2d50afb07

And I store them upside down right in the 6 packs / 12 pack boxes they came in. If you don't have any of those, here you go again: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=10720

 

[ncbrewer]

For rinsing, try the jet bottle washer.

 

[flyfisherwes]

You could send a sample to Ward Labs. It's about $16 for a full brewing water profile.

Who do I look like? Bill gates?

 

[azscoob]

You could send a sample to Ward Labs. It's about $16 for a full brewing water profile.

Who do I look like? Bill gates?

You are so getting banned for that, the forum rules specifically prohibit snarky comments toward moderators.

 

[flyfisherwes]

You are so getting banned for that, the forum rules specifically prohibit snarky comments toward moderators.

Lolz

 

[iskuse]

Do you then sanitize, after the cleaning and rinsing?

I soak in oxiclean rinse with water and dry, I have never used sanitizer. if things are looking a little dirty I use all natural unscented soap, then I hit it afterwards with oxiclean and rinse, I soak my bottles and lids in oxiclean.

after I soak and clean the labels off of the bottles I store them to dry. When I am ready to bottle I put 50 of them in the dishwasher and put it on High heat sanitize. no soap or anything just water.

So far so good.

 

[flyfisherwes]

I sanitize with star San because my dishwasher sucks.

 

[Pappers_]

I soak in oxiclean rinse with water and dry, I have never used sanitizer. if things are looking a little dirty I use all natural unscented soap, then I hit it afterwards with oxiclean and rinse, I soak my bottles and lids in oxiclean.

after I soak and clean the labels off of the bottles I store them to dry. When I am ready to bottle I put 50 of them in the dishwasher and put it on High heat sanitize. no soap or anything just water.

So far so good.

I'm glad it's worked for you, but most homebrewers follow a different, two-step regime.

First, clean with dish soap, oxyclean, pbw or some other cleanser. This can be done anytime - I usually do that right after using the equipment, then put it away for the next time I use it.

Secondly, sanitize with either Iodophor or Star San immediately before using.

So, clean the organic material after using and sanitize immediately before using. If you look in the equipment and sanitizing forum, you'll find lots of info on this.

For your bottles, I know others who heat sanitize in the dishwasher.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Anything I can do to test the natural spring water from the mountains to see if it's suitable?

Does it taste good when you pour a glass of it to drink? If so, its fine for home brewing.

Focus on fermentation first. Fermentation is 85% of brewing, the other 15% is recipe, ingredients, sanitation, process, and equipment combined.

My opinion anyway. You will always be chasing down off flavors until you get temperature control and pitching rate down.

 

[Elweydoloco]

Meh for $16 you get a full analysis or you can bring it to a pool chemical place and hope they give you what you need doubtful they will and chances are they'll charge you just as much

 

[roadymi]

the jet bottle rinser is an awesome tool to have

 

[azscoob]

Spending the scratch on a water analysis is worth it. I found my water to be a touch crazy for anything but a stout, however if I cut it with RO I make pretty good pales and bitters. My HBT winning mild was brewed with Maricopa municipal tap water and RO water at a 50/50 ratio.

 

[agentEhrman]

Interesting stuff here, glad all of you pro's are always so willing to help us newbs out! I have brewed 11 batches so far and almost all of mine have the same "off" flavor as well. I was only using easy clean with 10 minute soaking for cleaning AND sanitizing, so I suspect this is my issue? I just use tap water, as directed by my LHBS. He stated, "I have been using our local water for 28 years with great success" I found that hard to argue with, so until now I haven't even considered using anything else. I guess I may try some RO water once to see if it helps. I also top off before pitching with water straight from the tap. Again, my LHBS suggested this is perfectly fine, what are your thoughts? I have a stick on thermometer for my fermentation buckets, and I am usually at 70 while fermentation is high, then back to 65 or so for the rest of the time... Any help or recommendations are appreciated.

 

[mgull]

[/QUOTE]Oh and I will be trying to control temps better. Winter is coming so it'll be easier. When I get a house I will have a basement and brewing room. Any suggestions on ways to do this without a mess and a fridge are welcomed. I try to ferment 3 batches at a time. So space while cooling is an issue.[/QUOTE]
The swamp cooler method works pretty well for me. I brew in my closet which also contains my hot water heater. To make things worse I live in an apartment above a garage with no a/c. I just wrap my fermenter in wet towels and place bowls of ice in front of a fan. Without that my closet can get over 80 degrees. I can tell you from experience that it definitely affects my brew with all sorts of off flavors. Good luck

 

[Just1pepsi]

Are you boiling/sterilizing your bottle caps?

my routine:

As they empty:
Wash each bottle as clean as possible without getting complicated immediately after emptying.
Store upside down until I have a full set.

Bottling day pregame:
water/bleach mix, soak, scrub, rinse repeat
Rinse again, and maybe a third time with regular water depending on my bleach paranoia level/feel that day.

Bottling day kickoff:
soak in starsan solution immediately before bottling.
usually shake/swirl/rinse with starsan solution again just to be sure all surfaces are wet.
I fill right on top of it, and the SS foam comes right out as I get the bottle filled and runs down the side.
Place a sterilized cap on the bottle, set on the table - continue the painstaking process until all beer has been moved from the bottling bucket to the bottle.
Crimp the caps on
Wash the bottles in the SS solution again because I like my bottle CLEAN, then let dry. (last step optional I guess)

This is what works for me.. keys being, rinse a lot since using bleach, rinse some more, scrub even when the bottle appears clean to your naked eye, dont fear the foam in SS it is a wet contact sterilizer, so if its dry, its not sterilized.


You know, I suppose if you have the ability to do so, you could boil each bottle to ensure its sterile.
-or-
boil say, a six pack worth of bottles and then follow your normal process with the rest
mark the boiled ones and test your brew after they condition to see if you note a difference. If so, that would at least narrow it down to a bottle sterilization procedural problem.

Really you could also split your batch, one using RO water, and one using tap if you suspect that to be the problem as well.