Mash Conversion Experiment

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As of now, I fully believe that a large portion of conversion happens within the first few minutes (40-60% or more), but conversion DOES continue for roughly 30-45min if not longer. As of now, I won't be shortening my mashes and brew days. And I don't believe anyone who says they are getting full conversion in 5-10minutes or less. A lot of conversion, yes. Full, no way.

Doesn't the mash temp effect the rate of conversion, i.e. a higher mash temp results in faster conversion? Unless I overlooked it, there is no indication of mash temps in your data.

BTW, I always mash for an hour, so I'm not claiming 5-10 minutes is true.
 
OP, I think some of this talk was in one of my threads. My issue with your experiment is your use of a refractometer and the direct comparison to conversion.

You are measuring wort dissolved organic solids with the refractometer, which will certainly include protein and lipids (albeit in low levels), in addition to sugar. These are additional variables that make your measurement less accurate. Of course, these components exist when measuring brix during any other brew day, but the correlation to conversion is inaccurate. The concentration of some of these components will also be increasing over time during the mash.

However, the use of an iodine based conversion test will provide a more accurate measurement of the actual process of conversion that is occurring over time, instead of including a number of assumptions based on brix. My guess is that actual conversion does occur pretty quick.

Kaiser's experiments suggest mash thickness has a greater impact on conversion efficiency than all the other variables (pH, time, crush). The problem with most of these other experiments is that they are not directly translatable to general brewing practices; they only hold true for the specific experiment, are difficult to replicate, and contain many assumptions and uncontrolled variables.

That said, I very much appreciate your idea. The more people we get to carefully and repeatedly measure aspects of their brew day, the more interesting and appropriate the discussions become.

I agree and that's the hidden issue... but since the gravity continues to rise throughout the process, that tells that conversion is still happening, or am I wrong?

I've been told that iodine tests will show conversion when the majority of starches are converted but not fully. I have no frame of reference since I've never done one. But there are different shades of black and red, so couldn't a text be mistaken for complete conversion when really only MOST of conversion has happened?
 
One other thing regarding the iodine test that keeps crossing my mind: In mashes where you are getting significant action from both alpha and beta amylase, it seems like the iodine test will show conversion is complete while the beta amylase is still working as long as the alpha amylase has broken down the starches. I feel like mashing out after a 10 minute 154° mash would result in more long-chain sugars than you would expect if you do the traditional 60 minute mash, even if the iodine test shows conversion is complete. Is that not correct?
 
I agree and that's the hidden issue... but since the gravity continues to rise throughout the process, that tells that conversion is still happening, or am I wrong?

I've been told that iodine tests will show conversion when the majority of starches are converted but not fully. I have no frame of reference since I've never done one. But there are different shades of black and red, so couldn't a text be mistaken for complete conversion when really only MOST of conversion has happened?

It tells us that the density of the original strike water is increasing as it becomes wort. I would not say that the measurement is directly related only to the action of starch conversion. The problem with questioning the accuracy or the interpretation of the iodine conversion test (as boydster mentions below) is that your approach will have similar issues. I don't think your approach is more sensitive, and in fact it might be less so.

One other thing regarding the iodine test that keeps crossing my mind: In mashes where you are getting significant action from both alpha and beta amylase, it seems like the iodine test will show conversion is complete while the beta amylase is still working as long as the alpha amylase has broken down the starches. I feel like mashing out after a 10 minute 154° mash would result in more long-chain sugars than you would expect if you do the traditional 60 minute mash, even if the iodine test shows conversion is complete. Is that not correct?

Completely agree. Enzyme kinetics at different mash conditions are a crucial aspect of these results...and another variable that would require significantly more testing.

Without more sensitive methods, there are just too many variables to be definitive. The best approach would be to sample the mash over time and use a spectrophotometer to assess color change. This way, only the change from starch to sugar is measured. However, this does not account for the composition of sugars that result, only not sugar>sugar, or the percentage of sugars that are actually fermentable. For this we need mass spectrometry. Anybody independently wealthy enough to fund a research project?
 
Like I said, my crush is pretty fine. Any finer and I'd be making flour, which I have no intention of doing. There's already a good bit of powder now.

With all due respect RM-MN, I think you may need to admit that full conversion does take longer than 5min like you've claimed. I'm doing my research from one end showing that it takes 30-45min for full conversion, if not longer. If you claim to get full conversion in 5-10min, how about you take a few gravity readings with a refractometer next time you brew and share your results?

I'd love to take some refractometer readings to see how things change with time. 2 problems I have, one is that I don't currently have a refractometer and the second is that my schedule is such that I don't expect to get to brew another batch until October when work slows and the weather cools down.

My iodine tests show conversion in under 3 minutes. I mash for either 10 or 30 minutes. My OG is right where it is predicted to be but the FG is lower than expected. Maybe if I mash longer I can get some more long chain sugars to keep the FG up???
 
What do you guys think of this crush @ .030"? Looks good to me. I think there are more open husks and powder and less chunks/grits than previously. Glad I checked and fooled with it. It would be really nice if the improved crush and thicker mash got me back to mid 80's in 30 minutes sans haze and higher FG.

20140527_203127 (2).jpg
 
I'd love to take some refractometer readings to see how things change with time. 2 problems I have, one is that I don't currently have a refractometer and the second is that my schedule is such that I don't expect to get to brew another batch until October when work slows and the weather cools down.

My iodine tests show conversion in under 3 minutes. I mash for either 10 or 30 minutes. My OG is right where it is predicted to be but the FG is lower than expected. Maybe if I mash longer I can get some more long chain sugars to keep the FG up???

Wouldn't higher mash temp increase your final gravity?
 
Alot of good points made... Spartan raises a good one in that higher temps do increase the conversion. Common knowledge is that this leads to higher FG, however my experience is that the effects of higher mashing temperatures are overstated. I've done mashes with 20% crystal malt at 158F and got dry beer with chico. I think yeast has more to do with FG than mashing. Personally, I think mash pH makes a larger impact than temp which brings us to yet another variable... pH.
 
I agree and that's the hidden issue... but since the gravity continues to rise throughout the process, that tells that conversion is still happening, or am I wrong?

Does it tell you that conversion is still happening or just that more sugar is being absorbed by the water? Sugar that you'd get anyway during sparging?
 
Alot of good points made... Spartan raises a good one in that higher temps do increase the conversion. Common knowledge is that this leads to higher FG, however my experience is that the effects of higher mashing temperatures are overstated. I've done mashes with 20% crystal malt at 158F and got dry beer with chico. I think yeast has more to do with FG than mashing. Personally, I think mash pH makes a larger impact than temp which brings us to yet another variable... pH.

Unless your pitch is unhealthy/low or fermentation temperatures are too low, the yeast will attenuate any sugars that they can metabolize. You provide them with fermentable and non-fermentable sugars via mashing, the yeast don't choose. Perceived dryness does not always mean low body.

The pH of the mash will certainly affect the activity of the enzymes, and this has been discussed a lot. Although it is (relatively) easy to control pH, and pH swings outside of the normal 5.2-5.4 will have a larger impact than just affecting the rate of conversion. pH should not be an unmanaged variable.
 
This is getting way more complex than I had imagined and my head is beginning to hurt from thinking about it so I think I will go drink beer until the hurt goes away.

Wouldn't higher mash temp increase your final gravity?

It should. Now if I just had the time to try all the combinations.......
My last pale ale finished at 1.008. Maybe it was from overpitching. Another experiment to run, another piece of puzzle that doesn't quite fit where I want it to.
 
This is getting way more complex than I had imagined and my head is beginning to hurt from thinking about it so I think I will go drink beer until the hurt goes away.

Something we can both agree on :mug:
 
... In any event, the 2nd 30 minute mash beer is a porter and is the best beer I have EVER made but this is mainly attributed to a experienced brewer suggesting new yeast strain for me and not the fact it was a 30 minute mash. ...

Which yeast?
 
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