Maris Otter vs. American 2 Row Pale for IPA

[FlemingsFinest]

I've come up with my own IPA recipe and I'm going to go purchase the ingredients Thursday. For the past week, I've been set on using American 2-Row pale malt as my base, but then tonight I've started to consider switching to Maris Otter. If I do that, should I change my quantities? This is my first all-grain batch, so sorry for the newbie question. Here's the recipe if interested:

Batch Size: 5 Gallons
Type: All Grain
Target OG: 1.060
Boil Time: 60 Mins
Anticipated Efficiency: 70%

grains:
10.0 lbs Pale Ale Malt
1.0 lbs Vienna Malt
0.75 lbs Caramel 60
0.5 lbs Victory Malt
0.25 lbs Carapils

Mash at 152F.
Mash Volume 3.75
60 Min mash.

Batch sparge with enough 172F water to achieve a boil volume of 6.5 gal.

Boil
Target Boil Volume: 6.5 gallons

Hop Additions:

0.75 Oz Magnum 60 min
0.50 Oz Cascade 20 Min
0.75 Oz Centennial 15 min
0.50 Oz Cascade 10 Min
1 Oz Cascade 5 Min
0.75 Oz Centennial 2 Min

1 Packet Dry Nottingham Yeast


Primary Ferment 14 days
Dry Hop Additional 5-7 days
1.0 Oz Cascade
0.75 Oz Centennial

 

[passedpawn]

One thing that bugs me is a IPA with no malt backbone. I like hops, but I like some malt to add complexity to the thing.

Maris Otter has a bit of that. However, with your grain bill, you won't need it. The Crystal 60 and Victory will be plenty. Save the $$ and get the cheap 2-row.

BTW, looks like a great beer.

 

[bgburdman9]

I just put together an IPA recipe that is about 50:50 2 row and maris otter plus some other specialty grains.

 

[Yooper]

I've come up with my own IPA recipe and I'm going to go purchase the ingredients Thursday. For the past week, I've been set on using American 2-Row pale malt as my base, but then tonight I've started to consider switching to Maris Otter. If I do that, should I change my quantities? This is my first all-grain batch, so sorry for the newbie question. Here's the recipe if interested:

Batch Size: 5 Gallons
Type: All Grain
Target OG: 1.060
Boil Time: 60 Mins
Anticipated Efficiency: 70%

grains:
10.0 lbs Pale Ale Malt
1.0 lbs Vienna Malt
0.75 lbs Caramel 60
0.5 lbs Victory Malt
0.25 lbs Carapils

Mash at 152F.
Mash Volume 3.75
60 Min mash.

Batch sparge with enough 172F water to achieve a boil volume of 6.5 gal.

Boil
Target Boil Volume: 6.5 gallons

Hop Additions:

0.75 Oz Magnum 60 min
0.50 Oz Cascade 20 Min
0.75 Oz Centennial 15 min
0.50 Oz Cascade 10 Min
1 Oz Cascade 5 Min
0.75 Oz Centennial 2 Min

1 Packet Dry Nottingham Yeast


Primary Ferment 14 days
Dry Hop Additional 5-7 days
1.0 Oz Cascade
0.75 Oz Centennial

I like the looks of that recipe! A little victory malt for the biscuity/toasty flavor, a little caramel malt for sweetness, and a great hops schedule. don't change it!

 

[FlemingsFinest]

thanks alot for the input. my aim with this IPA recipe was to give it the classic hop kick, but not at the expense of my malt bill. i love IPAs that have some serious "backbone" as you have said. I think too often, IPAs are judged solely on their hops, but true depth and complexity comes from the malt bill IMO. I'll let you all know how it goes.

 

[philrose]

Dude, I want to brew your beer! Mind if I give her a shot also?

 

[FlemingsFinest]

I would be honored! Please just PM me with feedback as you go, I'm very passionate about my brewing so I really want to improve all the time. Good luck and cheers!

 

[oceanselv]

Great recipe. I would only change to a Maris Otter malt and a slightly more British hop schedule if you were trying for an English IPA. Most English IPAs use a combination of East Kent Goldings and Fuggles.

 

[lumpher]

great recipe. but stick with pale malt. the price is there, the taste difference isn't

 

[redalert]

I recently made an IPA using Canada 2-row and it was one of the best homebrews I have made since I started brewing.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Thanks alot everyone. This positive feedback is great. I don't have beermaking software so all of my calculations are done manually based out of a few different books I have, so I was a little nervous about how this would look. I'm pleased with it on paper, but the real test comes on tasting day!

 

[philrose]

I would be honored! Please just PM me with feedback as you go, I'm very passionate about my brewing so I really want to improve all the time. Good luck and cheers!

I plugged the recipe into BrewPal and made a couple changes to fit my own personal processes (Have a big pitch of S-04 ready from recent batch, Scaled up to 6 gallons for easier racking)


"Flemings Finest IPA"

Batch size 6 gallons
Boil size 7.4 gallons
Boil time 90 minutes
Grain weight 13.5 pounds
Efficiency 70%
Original gravity 1.059
Final gravity 1.013
Alcohol (by volume) 6.0%
Bitterness (IBU) 60
Color (SRM) 9.9°L
Yeast 13 dry grams Fermentis Safale S-04

Grains/Extracts/Sugars
Pale Ale 11 pounds
Vienna 1 pound
Crystal 60L 0.75 pounds
Victory 0.5 pounds
CaraPils 0.25 pounds

Mash 60 minutes, 9.9 gallons
Strike (Target 152°F)
4.5 gallons 165°F

Boil 90 minutes, 7.4 gallons
Magnum hops 14%, Pellet 0.75 ounces
60 minutes (+30)
Cascade hops 6%, Whole 0.5 ounces
20 minutes (+70)
Wort chiller
15 minutes (+75)
Centennial hops 10%, Pellet 0.75 ounces
15 minutes (+75)
Cascade hops 6%, Whole 0.5 ounces
10 minutes (+80)
Cascade hops 6%, Whole 1 ounce
5 minutes (+85)
Centennial hops 10%, Pellet 0.75 ounces
2 minutes (+88)

Ferment
14 days @ 59-75°F
Cascade hops 6%, Whole 1 ounce
5 days (+9)
Centennial hops 10%, Pellet 0.75 ounces
5 days (+9)

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Sounds great! Let me know what you think about the 90 Minute boil method, I plan on doing this recipe again with that to see how I like the beers comparatively.

 

[stevedasleeve]

I brew a great deal of IPas and I like Maris Otter quite a bit.

I had the same thought a ways back so I brewed an IPA twice, once with domestic American 2-row and once with Maris Otter. You should definitely do the same.

The all Maris Otter was a little too rich and the all 2-row was lacking something that the Martis Otter had maybe too much of!! Ultimately I split the difference. My house IPA is, in fact 50% 2-row and 50% Maris Otter for the base malt. I use Munich instead of Vienna and I tend to a little less crystal - I like the British medium crystal which is 50-65 L or so.

Oh and I might get lynched for mentioning this but have a sachet of S-04 handy. My last 3 out of 4 Nottingham experiences were not so good. If the yeast creams and smells good after hydrating use it and it will turn out great. Nottingham is great for this recipe, it attenuates all the way down at a Mash temp 152. If the yeast sinks and does not cream up toss it and hydrate some S-04 which is also a nice yeast for such a recipe. Ferment either on the low side (64 f) and you will get a lovely beer your friends and relatives will swoon over and praise you for!

 

[oldschool]

It's my opinion that MO doesn't meld well with American hops. I think you should brew the beer regardless so that you develop an opinion. (MO is quite biscuity, at least the simpson's is.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

I brew a great deal of IPas and I like Maris Otter quite a bit.

I had the same thought a ways back so I brewed an IPA twice, once with domestic American 2-row and once with Maris Otter. You should definitely do the same.

The all Maris Otter was a little too rich and the all 2-row was lacking something that the Martis Otter had maybe too much of!! Ultimately I split the difference. My house IPA is, in fact 50% 2-row and 50% Maris Otter for the base malt. I use Munich instead of Vienna and I tend to a little less crystal - I like the British medium crystal which is 50-65 L or so.

Oh and I might get lynched for mentioning this but have a sachet of S-04 handy. My last 3 out of 4 Nottingham experiences were not so good. If the yeast creams and smells good after hydrating use it and it will turn out great. Nottingham is great for this recipe, it attenuates all the way down at a Mash temp 152. If the yeast sinks and does not cream up toss it and hydrate some S-04 which is also a nice yeast for such a recipe. Ferment either on the low side (64 f) and you will get a lovely beer your friends and relatives will swoon over and praise you for!

Solid advice. I am actually going to be using Safale 05 yeast instead of Nottingham. As for the malt, I am going to start with a batch of all 2-row. when i come back for follow-up batches, I will make adjustments as a i see fit.

 

[ceannt]

I like M.O. in an IPA... but, like others have stated, with the Vienna and such, it's not really needed. One of my favorite IPAs that I ever brewed was just 12-pounds of M.O. and a pound of Crystal 20, bittered with Amarillo, and used Glacier for the late additions, it was one of those "OK, what am I going to do with all this leftover stuff?" brews... dang it turned out good...

 

[philrose]

just finishing the brewday for this sucker right now!

 

[bh10]

just finishing the brewday for this sucker right now!

Sounds good, probably a little late, but IMO the only thing Id chane is the yeast, Notty isnt a good American IPA yeast.

 

[Steelers77]

I usually spit 50- 50 MO and 2-row. Gives the beer a little more backbone in my opinion.

It's probably from my fondness of British ales and what seems to be a never ending bag of MO in my basement.

If the beer turns out well, brew it again and sub all MO and one more with a 50-50 split for the base malt. That will give you a good idea of whether or not it's worth it to spring for the more expensive malt.

Cheers

 

[bh10]

Instead of doing 50/50, what about using Pale Malt?

 

[Steelers77]

Pale ale malt (US) is kilned a little longer to try and emulate MO. I have never used it but I suppose it's worth a try.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Sounds good, probably a little late, but IMO the only thing Id chane is the yeast, Notty isnt a good American IPA yeast.

Just blew my meager college-student paycheck on ingredients today (worth every penny of course). I actually made a last-minute decision to go with Safale us-05. Thoughts?

I type this as I enjoy a sixer of Harpoon BPA. Life is good.

 

[bh10]

Just blew my meager college-student paycheck on ingredients today (worth every penny of course). I actually made a last-minute decision to go with Safale us-05. Thoughts?

I type this as I enjoy a sixer of Harpoon BPA. Life is good.

Perfect, its the dry version of White Labs 001 Cali Ale, IMO the best yeast for an IPA.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Perfect, its the dry version of White Labs 001 Cali Ale, IMO the best yeast for an IPA.

That's what I've been told. Notty was just a little too generic for me, I wanted something that would compliment my hop selections, and based on what I've heard, Safale US-05 was the perfect yeast for that. Can't wait for Christmas Break to brew this baby.

 

[philrose]

Sounds good, probably a little late, but IMO the only thing Id chane is the yeast, Notty isnt a good American IPA yeast.

Huh? I didn't use notty, but clean and fairly high attenuation works great in American IPA.

 

[philrose]

Adding dry hops this weekend, I'll take a gravity sample/taste test as well. The thing churned mightily for the first week, im Thinking about kegging it and tea balling the dry hops in the keg assuming the numbers and taste look good.

 

[philrose]

this beer has been in the keezer for three days now, i think a sample is in order tonight

 

[bh10]

Huh? I didn't use notty, but clean and fairly high attenuation works great in American IPA.

The only reason I say that is an American Yeast brings out the hops better.

 

[JonK331]

It's a little late but I really like Rahr for pretty much everything including IPAs. It's kind of in between basic 2-row and MO.

 

[sgillespie]

IFor the past week, I've been set on using American 2-Row pale malt as my base, but then tonight I've started to consider switching to Maris Otter. If I do that, should I change my quantities? :

Jamil Zainasheff likes to use 50/50 mix of American and British Pale in his APAs according to his show. I'm personally intrigued by Maris Otter in American hoppy ales. I'll probably try that next time

 

[JonK331]

Jamil Zainasheff likes to use 50/50 mix of American and British Pale in his APAs according to his show. I'm personally intrigued by Maris Otter in American hoppy ales. I'll probably try that next time

I've tried 60/40 MO and Rahr several times with great results, no reason to not combine base malts.

 

[philrose]

what rahr malt are you talking about, the plain 2row base or the pale ale malt?

 

[iijakii]

I was reading that some professional breweries will use 2-row and just add in a bit of victory to make a psuedo Maris Otter. Looks like you had the right idea too

 

[FlemingsFinest]

hey phil, how did it taste? any possibility of a few pics?

 

[Cookiedds]

I pretty much universally use Maris as the base malt for all my IPAs (and most other beers). I use a lot of late addition hops, sometimes all hops added in the last 30 minutes of the boil and get a big hop flavor and aroma profile with a deeper, more complex malt backbone which balances it out very nicely. What you ought to do is brew two batches with the exact same recipe except one with 2-row and the other with Maris Otter, see which you prefer and what each contributes to the profile of the beer.

 

[philrose]

hey phil, how did it taste? any possibility of a few pics?

you got it man, its just starting to carb up. I cant help but pull a few pints a day

Heres the finished product, on gas for five days with the slow and steady force carb method. I expect the co2 to get even more refined and creamy if the keg can possibly last through the holidays with the FIL.

Aroma dominates. Granted, this is a fresh (1 month old) example with a significant dryhop. Hop aroma starts the pint, fresh, bright, citrus "meat" (more than zest) leads to smells of a sweet herbal tea. As the beer sits the dryhop aroma starts to pair with a slightly musty sensation in the nose.

Appearance consists of light amber core with golden highlights where light can strike the edges of the glass. Foam stand is pronounced with off-white to light tan large bubbles. These bubbles seem underdeveloped and lead to a fleeting retention of the head. Dry hop hazyness persists through the experience, low to no yeast in suspension.

Flavor highlight is the hop flavor as is foiled by an apparent crystal sweetness. Smooth up front with bitterness that flows across the back of the tongue. Hidden in the bitterness is a tangyness that seems to be the combination of specialty grain and flavorful late hop additions. Wee bit of fruityness is dominated by smooth bitterness paired with marmalade toast. Aftertaste puts the citrus zest into the equation.

Mouthfeel is slicker and fuller than expected. Slight coating of the pallet fades during the swallow. Tingly after the sip fades as carbonation and something bitter departs from the tongue leaving the briefest of astringency. No alcohol warming on the palate or throat.

Overall, a hop forward beer with clear ale characteristics. Hops do dominate flavor at first but are foiled by a diverse malt background. Its not enough to call this beer balanced, it drinks on the hoppy end, but does allow a distinction against the hop bombs of our time. Lastly, easy to drink in quantity. Looking at the lineup of spent glassware, this is my fourth pint in two hours.


I think there might be some minor tweaks here and there, but it seems prudent to wait until another batch is out of the fermenter to discuss them.

GREAT JOB ON THE RECIPE FF! I look forward to your impressions of the beer.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Awesome. Thanks for the time spent making this a really full update, much appreciated. Next weds is my brew day for this baby. Can't wait.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Brewed this last Wednesday, sitting in the fermenter now. Dry hops will be added in a few days and then bottling in the near future! Had some issues with hitting my mash temp as I was using a new system and i'm also new to all grain, so it will be interesting to see how this effects the beer. Overall, can't wait to taste and brew again to get the techniques down better.

 

[FlemingsFinest]

Just tasted it for the first time yesterday! Mine came out more copper/golden than your's did Phil. I accredit this to the fact that this was my first AG batch, and my mash wasn't as smoothe as it should it have been. Practice makes perfect, and I have to get my techniques/equipment dialed in to improve color extractiong/efficiency. However, I was able to pull great flavor. I liked the hop additions alot. I am going to brew it a couple more times for practice before I change the recipe at all.