Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different

[OG_IBU_Bunghole]

At the risk of confusing the (yeast ball) issue above, the following picture is from another experiment

I previously made side by side batches using Vietnamese yeast balls in both with long grain sweet rice (left) & Thai jasmine (right) and ambient temps in low to mid 60s - mentioned I was going to try this in a previous post because I was told it wouldn't work with Thai jasmine, though I'd told her I already made it . The long grain sweet rice had even hotter alcohol, less fruitiness, and significantly better yield.

 

[OG_IBU_Bunghole]

There has been talk of eating the rice on day 3, which I'd like to try next. Has anyone found any recipes you liked? i.e. can you please save me a ton of googling over the next three days? Sorry if I missed that, but I've read every post and can't recall any specifics.

 

[sonofgrok]

I had the same idea since I found three yeast ball brands. Harvested today (day 22). Hopefully this helps.

My takeaway
I will continue to make all of these. I'd say the Hang Loong would be best for sharing with the average person, I'll give the Heng Lung to friends who like strong flavors, and the Vietnamese for when I'm in the mood for something a little more like whiskey than a cordial (esp if I use Vietnamese yeast balls but with long grain sweet rice instead of Thai jasmine). The only batch I haven't liked was calrose rice.

Very nice. I think you are the first to truly test and support the difference in flavor the yeast ball makes. This may explain for a lot of the varying results. I have only ever used Happy Panda balls and the results are my sweet consistent product.

 

[OG_IBU_Bunghole]

Only Hang Loong has been producing the small black mold spots on the top. This seems to support the idea that the mold is largely dependent on your balls.

I gotta get a sack of happy panda balls now that I know how important my balls are.

 

[Tinhorn]

Only Hang Loong has been producing the small black mold spots on the top. This seems to support the idea that the mold is largely dependent on your balls.

I gotta get a sack of happy panda balls now that I know how important my balls are.

That is so funny on so many levels

 

[captainskinnybeard]

From reading about half of the posts on this thread I think there is something that is being missed. I believe the "yeast balls" are made of a small amount of yeast, which of course multiplies, and some quantity of food grade fungal amylase. There should never be any mold on your rice. The creation of the amylase by mold has been done for you by the yeast ball manufacturer.

The optimum temperature for amylase to change starch to sugars is 122 degrees Fahrenheit. If you don't get the temperature up at the beginning you are going to run the risk of having something undesirable growing before there is enough alcohol to discourage it. You should smell yeast and alcohol at least by 36 hours.

I don't rinse my rice, I cook it in the microwave 1 part rice to 2 parts water. I add a little more water on the second day if it looks dry. I open it up and taste it often. I don't put cheesecloth on it. I leave the lid loose. I shake it up good once it starts to liquify. I have a place that keeps the rice about 80 degrees although I expect warmer would be better.

This stuff is made all over Asia and every recipe is different. It's not rocket surgery. But it's not ale either. It needs to be warm.

 

[Leadgolem]

Um. No. If the amylase was already present in it's entirety, then the experiment I did reusing the remaining starch mass from a prior batch would have been a complete failure. That batch displayed typical saccharification and mold growth characteristics. If the enzyme was not produced in the batch the amount of amylase available after the starch mass had it's liquid removed would have been inadequate to produce that result.

 

[JuanMoore]

From reading about half of the posts on this thread I think there is something that is being missed. I believe the "yeast balls" are made of a small amount of yeast, which of course multiplies, and some quantity of food grade fungal amylase. There should never be any mold on your rice. The creation of the amylase by mold has been done for you by the yeast ball manufacturer.

Maybe, but I doubt it. One of the yeast ball packages I've seen lists koji rice flour and yeast as the ingredients. I think it's more likely that the yeast balls are made by inoculating cooked rice with koji or another mold, and then drying and milling it into a flour, and mixing in some dried yeast, and then forming it into balls. The translation for the ingredients of other yeast balls I have is rice flour, yeast, and spices. My guess is that the rice flour is from moldy rice.

 

[Ostomo517]

Maybe, but I doubt it. One of the yeast ball packages I've seen lists koji rice flour and yeast as the ingredients. I think it's more likely that the yeast balls are made by inoculating cooked rice with koji or another mold, and then drying and milling it into a flour, and mixing in some dried yeast, and then forming it into balls. The translation for the ingredients of other yeast balls I have is rice flour, yeast, and spices. My guess is that the rice flour is from moldy rice.

Yup pretty sure your wrong captain, been told by store owner the balls I use contain mold and its a good sign to see the white mold on top

 

[captainskinnybeard]

Amylase is used commercially in quantities measured in parts per million. You probably still had enough for starch conversion. There is no telling how much is in these yeast balls.

I have never seen any indication of mold and since I shake mine often it would be hard for mold to grow as mold needs to grow undisturbed on the surface.

 

[Ostomo517]

Amylase is used commercially in quantities measured in parts per million. You probably still had enough for starch conversion. There is no telling how much is in these yeast balls.

I have never seen any indication of mold and since I shake mine often it would be hard for mold to grow as mold needs to grow undisturbed on the surface.

Ive done both shaken/stirred batches and the undisturbed batches are far superior and that includes mold on top

 

[captainskinnybeard]

Take a look at this website and their video. They are mixing dry ingredients and making them into balls. If they were doing something with live mold you would think they would be proud enough to show it off.

http://www.ontoyeast.ca/

I have read where traditionally the yeast balls were inoculated with live mold but just like sake making the mold is killed after the amylase is created and before the mold creates spores. Without spores the mold derived product cant create more mold.

 

[Ostomo517]

But also at the same time there are a lot of different brands and types of yeast balls being used. You cant just say thats the end all be all of it

 

[Leadgolem]

Take a look at this website and their video. They are mixing dry ingredients and making them into balls. It they were doing something with live mold you would think they would be proud enough to show it off.

http://www.ontoyeast.ca/

I have read where traditionally the yeast balls were inoculated with live yeast but just like sake making the yeast is killed after the amylase is created and before the mold creates spores. Without spores the mold derived product cant create more mold.

Here's the video.


The answer to your question I believe is no. Most people think all mold is gross, and/or poisonous. I suspect one of the dry products contains mold spores.

If you stir a batch you will break up the mold, but you won't kill it. Just because it isn't visible in a big clump doesn't mean it isn't in there.

Rice wine seems to have a fairly loose definition. Aspergillus oryzae is definitely used when making sake. Monascus purpureus is definitely used in making red rice wine. The later, being red, very obviously grows into the rice.

 

[captainskinnybeard]

The bottom line is that you need amylase in your rice in at least trace amounts. And since it is a readily available commodity in the food industry, manufactured by companies that specialize in making enzymes I don't see why a little company making yeast balls and selling them for $1.99 a package and trying to make a profit would fool around with live mold when they don't need to.

And by the way I am not phobic about mold. I scrape it off of aging hot sauce mash and don't worry about it.

 

[edds5p0]

Speaking of mold, I ended up with a very fluffy ball of mycelium on the top of my most recent batch. In the future, it may be smarter to mix it in instead of sprinkling on top. There seems to be little progress in the RYR breaking up the grains, I suppose the next few days will tell.

 

[WesleyS]

The bottom line is that you need amylase in your rice in at least trace amounts. And since it is a readily available commodity in the food industry, manufactured by companies that specialize in making enzymes I don't see why a little company making yeast balls and selling them for $1.99 a package and trying to make a profit would fool around with live mold when they don't need to.

And by the way I am not phobic about mold. I scrape it off of aging hot sauce mash and don't worry about it.

The bottom line is I really don't care. I cook my rice, I add crushed yeast balls from the Asian market, I put it in a container, and then 21 days later I have rice wine. Beyond that, I don't really care what the technical name of the resulting wine is and what is or isn't contained in the yeast balls.
A few days in, I do get white fluffy growth (looks like that fake spider web stuff for halloween decoration) with tiny black spores concentrated around any larger chunks of the crushed yeast balls. The fact that it appears to originate from the pieces of yeast ball, leads me to believe its from whatever is in the balls. It goes away after maybe a week. I don't stir or open my containers at all for the whole 21 days and everything comes out okay.

 

[Ostomo517]

The bottom line is that you need amylase in your rice in at least trace amounts. And since it is a readily available commodity in the food industry, manufactured by companies that specialize in making enzymes I don't see why a little company making yeast balls and selling them for $1.99 a package and trying to make a profit would fool around with live mold when they don't need to.

And by the way I am not phobic about mold. I scrape it off of aging hot sauce mash and don't worry about it.

Because its traditional

 

[captainskinnybeard]

Anyway, regardless of the source of the amylase, amylase doubles it's rate of conversion of starch to sugar that is available to the yeast every 10 degrees C. Traditionally rice wine was made in the summer and aged over the winter.

 

[Ostomo517]

Anyway, regardless of the source of the amylase, amylase doubles it's rate of conversion of starch to sugar that is available to the yeast every 10 degrees C. Traditionally rice wine was made in the summer and aged over the winter.

Already knew that but thanks

 

[Leadgolem]

The bottom line is that you need amylase in your rice in at least trace amounts. And since it is a readily available commodity in the food industry, manufactured by companies that specialize in making enzymes I don't see why a little company making yeast balls and selling them for $1.99 a package and trying to make a profit would fool around with live mold when they don't need to.

And by the way I am not phobic about mold. I scrape it off of aging hot sauce mash and don't worry about it.

I wasn't implying that you were. I was merely pointing out that many consumers are. Therefore, a company that uses a mold, or mold spores, in it's processing is unlikely to advertise that fact unless required to by law. It would limit their pool of possible consumers.

Anyway, regardless of the source of the amylase, amylase doubles it's rate of conversion of starch to sugar that is available to the yeast every 10 degrees C. Traditionally rice wine was made in the summer and aged over the winter.

Interesting tradition. It might be worth doing once the weather is a little warmer here. I would be interested to note how the flavor of the wine would change with some age. Especially since almost all of us have been consuming the wine fairly quickly after harvesting.

I had forgotten this instance, but it may be relevant. I did have a batch where I was very impatient and mixed crushed yeast balls with the rice when it was still slightly hot. Call it 140f estimated. That batch did not saccharify enough to produce any useful amount of liquid. It also did not mold.

 

[Spraentart]

I'm having a hard time finding yeast balls. Anyone want to sell me some? I'd buy them online but shipping is insane!

 

[captainskinnybeard]

I wasn't implying that you were. I was merely pointing out that many consumers are. Therefore, a company that uses a mold, or mold spores, in it's processing is unlikely to advertise that fact unless required to by law. It would limit their pool of possible consumers.

Interesting tradition. It might be worth doing once the weather is a little warmer here. I would be interested to note how the flavor of the wine would change with some age. Especially since almost all of us have been consuming the wine fairly quickly after harvesting.

I had forgotten this instance, but it may be relevant. I did have a batch where I was very impatient and mixed crushed yeast balls with the rice when it was still slightly hot. Call it 140f estimated. That batch did not saccharify enough to produce any useful amount of liquid. It also did not mold.

140f could kill the yeast and mold spores. It shouldn't hurt the amylase enzyme.

Maybe the folks at Onto would share some insight. They are in Canada. I'll send them an e-mail and see what they say, if anything.

 

[Leadgolem]

140f could kill the yeast and mold spores. It shouldn't hurt the amylase enzyme.

Maybe the folks at Onto would share some insight. They are in Canada. I'll send them an e-mail and see what they say, if anything.

That's what I thought. Logically, it fits better with a biological process that has been disrupted by the cooking of some of the beasties involved.

It would be very interesting to know from a company that produces the product directly if theirs contains mold spores. Though, as was mentioned, it is possible multiple types of yeast balls are available to the various parties making the wine.

Hmm, an interesting experiment would be to treat the process more as one might a traditional beer. Cook the rice, then add it to a pot of water maintained at optimal temps for amylase activity. Add straight amylase and allow the starch conversion to take place. Then strain the remaining rice pieces out, cool, and pitch yeast.

In any event that kind of an experiment would provide an interesting comparison to more traditional rice wine production. That, and you could get solid gravity readings so you would actually know what the ABV was. I'll put it on the list, but it may be a long while before I try it.

 

[bottlebomber]

I'm having a hard time finding yeast balls. Anyone want to sell me some? I'd buy them online but shipping is insane!

Dude! I would have gladly threw some in the package I sent out

 

[Ostomo517]

X I lve not to far away Im sure it would be cheap to send some over. Let me know

 

[Spraentart]

Dude! I would have gladly threw some in the package I sent out

Doh!

X I lve not to far away Im sure it would be cheap to send some over. Let me know

I'll shoot you a PM.

 

[captainskinnybeard]

I sent the following email to the Onto Yeast ball manufacturer:

"I have been discussing rice wine making on a brewing forum. There are many of us who have made rice wine and many more who would like to make some.
We were wondering if the yeast balls contain the amylase enzyme or if they contain mold spores allowing mold to make the amylase enzyme in the brewing wine.
Can you clear this up for us?"

They promptly replied saying:

"Hello Bruce,
Thank you for your interest in Onto Yeast balls.
Unfortunately I cannot answer your question at this time, but I will make sure to bring up the question to the scientist once he is available."

 

[Leadgolem]

I sent the following email to the Onto Yeast ball manufacturer:

"I have been discussing rice wine making on a brewing forum. There are many of us who have made rice wine and many more who would like to make some.
We were wondering if the yeast balls contain the amylase enzyme or if they contain mold spores allowing mold to make the amylase enzyme in the brewing wine.
Can you clear this up for us?"

They promptly replied saying:

"Hello Bruce,
Thank you for your interest in Onto Yeast balls.
Unfortunately I cannot answer your question at this time, but I will make sure to bring up the question to the scientist once he is available."

A prompt response like that is a good sign. Hopefully they follow up with you soon. Please do let us know if you hear anything more from them.

 

[captainskinnybeard]

The thing that got me started on this was reading about "failed batches" on this thread. My uncontrollable urge to understand why things fail got me thinking...