Make IPA Clear Again

[shortyz]

i propose dry hopping milk.

 

[Veets]

I don't mind that hazy beers exist and are popular, or that "juicy" hop flavor beers exist and are popular. Like the OP, I don't like that these new styles so often take the IPA name, and as a result you never know what you're going to get when you order an IPA off a menu or tap handle any more.

Please make my hat "MIPABA" (Make IPAs Bitter Again) and PM me with payment instructions.

 

[Eltes]

I'll start by saying I really like NEIPAs. That being said though, I understand some of the things that annoy some others.

I think the massive hype around NEIPA has allowed many many brewers to get away with beers that are mediocre at best. I've had plenty of NEIPAs where all I could taste was hop burn (hop burn is an off flavor!).

What I also find annoying sometimes is that in many places NEIPA seems to have completely replaced west coast IPAs. A lot of breweries that used to make great west coast IPAs are now making almost exclusively NEIPAs. Like people have already said in this thread, I think there is room for both styles (and many others of course!), but at the moment NEIPA seems to make up like 90% of all IPA.

 

[madscientist451]

Yes, clarity does matter. But what is also troubling is the general acceptance of poor clarity.

Huge industrial breweries do a great job of making clear beer.
They can produce large volumes of a very consistent product from multiple locations.
But does all clear beer have a desirable taste?
I don't care what the beer looks like, I'm drinking for flavor.
NEIPA's aren't my favorite beer, but I've had a few that are memorable:

 

[Nagorg]

But does all clear beer have a desirable taste?

Absolutely not... And that's not what this thread is really about. Its not even about clarity in general but the recent association and craze for poor clarity in a style that should be decoupled from "IPA".

Lets get a new style for poor clarity beers sanctioned and drop the IPA designation from these beers!

Lets MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN!

 

[TheMadKing]

I completely agree with the OP and other "traditionalists"

I like a well made NEIPA and I can ignore the Mississippi color if it's good enough but most of them don't even taste good to me. They taste overly sweet and fruity!

I went to the store a week ago looking for a regular old fashioned west coast IPA and the ONLY one I could find was Bell's two hearted... Which is a great beer but I've had it about a million times. Every other IPA was labeled as hazy or milkshake or doublejuicybannanablamahoppykerpow

I bought one other one that just said American IPA, but alas I poured an overcarbonated mess of opacity.

MIPACA!

 

[bobeer]

Again, I come in peace. I like good banter but are you guys serious about asking wether or not an IPA on someone's menu is clear? You really ask this question?

Aren't you most, if not solely concerned with how it tastes? What if you were blind?

It's like you're hung up on a factor that is completely irrelevant. You want it clear because that's how it's always been done.

If it's lack of clarity is viewed as a flaw, but it tastes incredible, do you really care? Serious question here.

I should add that I also love clear as day, high Ibu, west coast IPAs. I just feel there's room for all of them.

I think people are concerned with taste which is why they ask if the beer is clear or not. It's much easier to associate a visual description rather than a taste description since everyone's tastes are different. If it's hazy you can almost always assume these days it's more towards the neipa style. If you don't want that you have every right to ask if it's this or that since beer costs $7+ a pint now and even the "pint" glasses are getting smaller. You could totally tell the difference between a west coast ipa and a neipa if you were blind.

I was at the store last night looking for a west coast style ipa and all that was there were 4 pack tall boys and I can pretty much guarantee they were all hazy/ne style ipa's. Some of them actually said so on the can, which I think is the way to go, but most of them were just called ipa. They were all $15+ bucks which is too rich for my blood. I finally found a 21st amendment Tasty IPA sixer for $9 wedged way in the back, haha.

I'm all for progression, that's why homebrewing is what it is today, but not everyone has to like every new thing that comes out. I personally can't stand the haze craze and neipa's but I appreciate that someone created something new in an industry that has been around for a long time. There's something to be said about that I think. It's awesome that beer has been around for this long and we can still create new styles, tastes and flavors. Ugly beer or not. Haha.

 

[bobeer]

What, too good for the 15% malt bomb pastry stouts that are also everywhere?

All the hipster hypelord neckbeard hangouts around here produce multiples of the three. Hazebombs, excessively fruited quick sours, massive pastry stouts.

I live in NoVa as well and I can attest to this. So many breweries around here only offer cloudy ipa's, huge pastry stouts, and super fruit beers. I get they're just offering what is popular but I do often wonder if they can brew other styles that aren't so forgiving. I guess time will tell.

I can't drink the pastry stouts. They give me the worst headache due to all the sugar that's in them. They're much too sweet anyway. There was some brewery a while back that put cotton candy sugar in an IPA or something and it was ugly as hell and awful but everyone seemed to like it. Each to their own but I can't get down with any of it. Luckily we all can brew what our taste buds enjoy.

 

[Beerwildered]

Aren't you most, if not solely concerned with how it tastes? What if you were blind?

It's like you're hung up on a factor that is completely irrelevant. You want it clear because that's how it's always been done.

I also come in peace. I want to quibble with your sense of relevance.

Chefs and gastronomes are fond of telling us that we “eat with our eyes,” and I agree. Why would I want to eat something that looks nasty, or prepared in a dirty kitchen, but tastes amazing? I don’t. How food (and drink, presumably) is prepared and presented is paramount to our appreciation of how it tastes.

I will add mine to the voices asking for clarity (literally and figuratively) in the IPA category. I *wanted* to like Hazy IPA - truly. But when it started getting confused with real IPA that’s when I got frustrated. It’s not IPA. It is beer - but not IPA.

I was eating out with the family last night and I ordered an IPA from the menu. What showed up was a lazy and hazy disappointment.

And it’s true - calling these hipster hopped up fruit juices “IPA” is Lazy. It lacks imagination. Creating them is hard work - and truly this might be an innovation in the craft. So let’s stop being Lazy and create a new category.

 

[Jag75]

Playing devils advocate here . What about IPAs that are less then 5.5 abv . They call them session IPAs . However IPAs were originally made higher then 5.5 , so are they not IPAs? What about Reds . You have Irish , Scottish and American Red ales. I see it as IPAs have different styles . IPA were highly hopped and high abv . IPA isnt a clarity term . Same can be said about stouts . How many different styles of stouts are there. A NEIPA doesnt have to be chunky with yeast and hop sludge, in fact that sounds gross to me . I Do make them , they aren't thick with that crud but they're not clear. To me theres just a variety of different styles of IPAs . If I feel like a west coast I drink one , if I feel like a NEIPA I drink it. Same goes for Reds and Stouts . What do you think of IPAL ? Does it have the right to have IPA in it or does it have the right to be a Lager with all the hop additions . I'm glad there is different styles of beers .

 

[HopsAreGood]

There are a lot of good points in this thread and I agree with many of them. Whether you like or dislike these "hazy ipas" it seems the main complaint is these beers should not be called IPAs, rather be put in a new category all their own. Something like hazy ales or whatever. I'd personally have no problem with that at all but don't see it happening.

The other main complaint seems to be that they are so popular right now that it's difficult getting your hands on a more traditional, classic, English or west coast style IPA. Right or wrong bars, restaurants, liquor stores, etc..are going to carry what sells, and right now these are the beers that people want. Honestly though in my area, I have no problem finding these types of beers along with the hazy ones. Actually most of the good neipas don't even make it to shelves, they're sold right from the breweries. Maybe I'm just lucky.

And just some food for thought..aren't ipas called ipas because they were heavily hopped in order for the beers to withstand the long journey from England to India? The main characteristic of the true original IPA was the heavy hopping. Not so much the clarity.

 

[Gameface]

I remember a time when I was sort of like "Humm, look at this, a NEIPA. That's cool I've wanted to try one of those." Now it's like "Humm, is there any IPA that isn't hazy around here anywhere?"

It's cool as another option, what sucks is that it has become the dominate option and pushed several other options out of the way.

I'm definitely over it.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Well, by now every beer drinker knows a NEIPA will have some degree of haze. I have brewed one and I enjoy them when I’m in the mood for one. With that said, I’m put off when I go to a brewery and order a flight of different styles and they all come out cloudy. Perhaps the hipsters don’t know any better, or think that makes everything better, but I don’t want an APA, traditional IPA or lager that isn’t clear. Don’t be an impatient, lazy brewer if you want my repeat business.

 

[passedpawn]

I like em clear. I don't like the look or the taste of those super hazy beers. But I don't care even a little bit if others like them - you can have the rest of mine

I would be a little unhappy if there wasn't at least one clear IPA when I go out, but that has yet to happen.

 

[Virginia_Ranger]

I believe to each is own but I will admit as someone who brews and buys quite a few NEIPAs, I find myself craving a good lager or a "nothing fancy" stout or brown ale a lot lately.

To those who say its yeast sludge my answer is: it can be if done poorly but its not fully true! I use a lot of wheat (25-30%) and flake oats in mine which I believe contributes to the haze and dry hoping which binds to the yeast does as well. I actually have been using a diptub filter on transfer on mine lately and have lost zero haze and have no visible or palatable residue or "sludge" in the glass.

OH and water chemistry! It can make that soft pillowy mouthfeel even on a filtered NEIPA! I have actually been toying with doing a cream ale with the NEIPA water chemistry to get a better mouthfeel.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I would be a little unhappy if there wasn't at least one clear IPA when I go out, but that has yet to happen.

Agreed. I like them both as I've said, but I think it's a little overblown that hazy ipas are the only ipa you can get when you go out. If you go to a brewery that clearly focuses on the style then it should be expected. But any restaurant, brew pub, liquor store around me (central NJ) absolutely has plenty of options that aren't hazy/muddy.

 

[brewswithshoes]

I believe to each is own but I will admit as someone who brews and buys quite a few NEIPAs, I find myself craving a good lager or a "nothing fancy" stout or brown ale a lot lately.

To those who say its yeast sludge my answer is: it can be if done poorly but its not fully true! I use a lot of wheat (25-30%) and flake oats in mine which I believe contributes to the haze and dry hoping which binds to the yeast does as well. I actually have been using a diptub filter on transfer on mine lately and have lost zero haze and have no visible or palatable residue or "sludge" in the glass.

OH and water chemistry! It can make that soft pillowy mouthfeel even on a filtered NEIPA! I have actually been toying with doing a cream ale with the NEIPA water chemistry to get a better mouthfeel.

This is so correct. It’s being shown that some of the ingredients and certain yeasts are being used to extract maximum hop flavor which is exactly what I think most like. I get that the aesthetics can trick the mind into thinking it’s thick or chewy.

I’ve had quite a few NEIPAs and a lot of the newer ones clearly do have a sludge/residue in the last bit of the glass. But, there are several breweries that make really good NEIPAs where this doesn’t happen. Treehouse is a good example, really like their beers but sometimes they have a perfect batch, but then others leave behind an oz of trub/hop particulate. Not to turn this thread into who does it the right/wrong way, but try a Focal Banger from Alchemist and then use that to judge the correct way to make a NEIPA. If that beer was purple with glitter I’d still drink it whenever I can get my hands on it.

I also agree with the other poster that said they find themselves craving other styles now. I like NEIPAs but I’d rather have what the brewery brews the best, and don’t find myself trying their “new stuff”

 

[couchsending]

I could care less what a hoppy beer looks like. It is a known side effect of fining or filtering a beer that hop aroma and intensity will suffer. There is no brewer that will tell you otherwise. The best producers of the hazy style don’t do many of the things that people think are critical for the “hazy” beer style. They don’t use wheat or oats or dry hop during fermentation. They even “gasp” add hops in the kettle! The best hazy beers are just a little softer and have a bigger aromatic presence over just bitterness.

To me the difference is yeast esters. Beers made with Chico just let the hops shine where as the English yeasts tend to compliment the fruity hops with some more fruity esters of their own.

Thinking that because a beer isn’t clear the brewer of said beer is lazy is a rather stupid statement. A great hazy beer is actually harder to make than a clean WC inspired IPA in my opinion.

I make plenty of both and have been using Cal ale yeast more and more these days after probably hundreds of batches of IPAs with English yeast. Enjoying the change of pace actually.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I'm sure it's been said in this thread, but tarring all hazy beers as yeast bombs is also dumb and reductive. There are some bad examples of the style that have a ton of yeast in suspension but the vast majority do not, nor should they. It's not required to make a hazy beer.

 

[Nagorg]

We just dont want the Hazy/Juicy style associated with IPA. It's funny when someone says that they dont like the bitter IPA's... Maybe they just dont like IPA? Maybe they really just prefer fruit juice instead... I think its fine that they like that and I do too sometimes. Just dont call it IPA.

Lets get it moved to a new style and drop the IPA association. Lets MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN!

 

[Jag75]

What is the definition of an IPA?

How clear should it be?

 

[Nagorg]

How clear should it be?

You should be able to see through it I'd say.

 

[Nagorg]

Okay, a little reference to the Brewers Association style guidelines...

First, I think (hope) that everyone agrees that IPA actually started as an English export to... India. So if there were a good baseline of what the style should be, an English IPA should be about as close as it gets.

From the BA on English-Style India Pale Ale:
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English-Style India Pale Ale

• Color: Gold to copper
• Clarity: Chill haze is acceptable at low temperatures
• Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Medium malt flavor should be present
• Perceived Hop Aroma & Flavor: Hop aroma and flavor is medium to high, and often flowery. Hops from a variety of origins may be used to contribute to a high hopping rate. Earthy and herbal English-variety hop character should be perceived, but may result from the skillful use of hops of other origin.
• Perceived Bitterness: Medium to high
• Fermentation Characteristics: Fruity-estery flavors are moderate to very high. Traditional interpretations are characterized by medium to medium-high alcohol content. The use of water with high mineral content results in a crisp, dry beer with a subtle and balanced character of sulfur compounds. Diacetyl can be absent or may be perceived at very low levels.
• Body: Medium
• Additional notes: Non-English hops may be used for bitterness or for approximating traditional English hop character. The use of water with high mineral content may result in a crisp, dry beer rather than a malt-accentuated version.

-----------------------------------------------

From the BA on American-Style India Pale Ale:
-------------------------------------------------
American-Style India Pale Ale

• Color: Gold to copper
• Clarity: Chill haze is acceptable at low temperatures. Hop haze is allowable at any temperature.
• Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Low-medium to medium maltiness is present in aroma and flavor
• Perceived Hop Aroma & Flavor: Hop aroma and flavor is high, exhibiting floral, fruity (berry, tropical, stone fruit and other), sulfur/diesel-like, onion-garlic-catty, citrusy, piney or resinous character that was originally associated with American-variety hops. Hops with these attributes now also originate from countries other than the USA.
• Perceived Bitterness: Medium-high to very high
• Fermentation Characteristics: Fruity-estery aroma and flavor may be low to high. Diacetyl should not be perceived.
• Body: Medium-low to medium
• Additional notes: The use of water with high mineral content may result in a crisp, dry beer rather than a malt-accentuated version. Sugar adjuncts may be used to enhance body and balance. Hops of varied origins may be used for bitterness or for approximating traditional American character.

-------------------------------------------------

With me still? So far the two styles are fairly similar in Color, Clarity as well as malt and hop aroma/flavor and perceived bitterness. Subtle differences for sure..


But then out of left field comes what looks like a completely different beer...

From the BA on Juicy or Hazy India Pale Ale:
-------------------------------------------------
Juicy or Hazy India Pale Ale

• Color: Straw to deep gold
• Clarity: Low to very high degree of cloudiness is typical of these beers. Starch, yeast, hop, protein and/or other compounds contribute to a wide range of hazy appearance within this category.
• Perceived Malt Aroma & Flavor: Low to low-medium malt aroma and flavor may be present
• Perceived Hop Aroma & Flavor: Medium-high to very high hop aroma and flavor are present, with attributes typical of hops from any origin
• Perceived Bitterness: Medium-low to medium
• Fermentation Characteristics: Low to medium fruity-estery aroma and flavor may be present, but are usually overwhelmed by hop fruitiness. Diacetyl should not be perceived.
• Body: Medium-low to medium-high. Perceived silky or full mouthfeel may contribute to overall flavor profile.
• Additional notes: Grist may include a small amount of oat, wheat or other adjuncts to promote haziness. Descriptors such as “juicy” are often used to describe the taste and aroma hop-derived attributes present in these beers.

-------------------------------------------------

How did this ever get lumped in with "IPA"? Likely for marketing purposes since IPA has been pretty popular lately. And because of these things its taking over what folks think an IPA should be and prompting an acceptance of what would be considered flaws in most other styles.

Just saying... Can we get these beers in their own non-IPA category and MAKE IPA CLEAR AGAIN?

 

[Qhrumphf]

What if it's hazy AND bitter?

Just saying. Varying degrees of haze have always been present.

 

[balrog]

Because you know I'm all about that malt,
'Bout that malt, no hoppy
I'm all 'bout that malt, 'bout that malt, no hoppy
I'm all 'bout that malt, 'bout that malt, no hoppy
I'm all 'bout that malt, 'bout that malt

 

[Nagorg]

What if it's hazy AND bitter?

Just saying. Varying degrees of haze have always been present.

Some haze with bitterness isnt typical of the NEIPA's I've encountered. They are mostly an extreme haze, like a glass of juice, with no bitterness. Pretty much all aroma and fruit juice flavor with no clarity.

 

[balrog]

I guess that, in a nutshell, is my thing. And everyone is entitled to their thing. Some like roasted Brussels sprouts and some think they are inedible. All hop is interesting for a moment.

I, and it's just me, prefer balance.

 

[Qhrumphf]

You didn't answer my question. If you wanna get historical and traditional about it, haze has always been variable? So is it the haze or the lack of bitterness that bugs you?

Because even among clearer old school IPAs, the bitterness has varied too.

There are some New England examples that are more bitter than old school English or East Coast examples.

 

[Nagorg]

Its both haze and lack of bitterness but mostly the extreme, dirty dishwater lack of clarity is what really bugs me. The two traits together just dont align with IPA IMO...

I'm assuming that there are some more bitter NEIPA variants out there. But I haven't encountered any so far and am unlikely to given my aversion to the visual detraction..

 

[SEndorf]

An interesting idea, but not practical.
I just had a very interesting Norwegian IPA with Kviek yeast and New Zealand Motueka hops.
It was a haze bomb. Appearance looked like pond slog. But tasted very clean and refreshing.
Not all IPA's are clear. It really doesn't matter...