low head retention

[Merleti]

I've been battling two things on my Belgian Wit one the lack of clove notes and the other head retention or flat beer.

My main concern is flat beer. To help with more clove notes I did my protein rest at 113 deg. instead of 120 deg. I ended up with the same results on clove notes and even lower head. I read that doing a protein rest with modified malts will give you a beer with less body, thin and watery. Is this true?

For clove notes I went warmer at 71 deg for fermentation with no increase but less.

I feel like the research I do only leads me to the opposite of what I am trying to achieve. I know this is not much info, but I wanted to keep it short. What info do you need?

 

[BigMack]

For starters some recipe information would be helpful. There are a ton of factors that could be messing with head retention.

As for the clove notes, I believe with many belgian yeasts you'll actually get more clove phenols at lower temperatures. I'm guessing at a warmer temperature you got a little more banana flavor out of it?

 

[VolDoc]

I've been battling two things on my Belgian Wit one the lack of clove notes and the other head retention or flat beer.

My main concern is flat beer. To help with more clove notes I did my protein rest at 113 deg. instead of 120 deg. I ended up with the same results on clove notes and even lower head. I read that doing a protein rest with modified malts will give you a beer with less body, thin and watery. Is this true?

For clove notes I went warmer at 71 deg for fermentation with no increase but less.

I feel like the research I do only leads me to the opposite of what I am trying to achieve. I know this is not much info, but I wanted to keep it short. What info do you need?

I believe you have your temps and flavor profiles backwards.... For german style wheats like witbiers, fermenting under 68-70 will produce more clove, and anything over 70 will give more pronounced banana/bubblegum.

 

[Merleti]

BigMack

5lb pils 3lb white wheat, 2 lb pale malt, 8oz carmel/crystal malt, 1 lb wheat flake, .87 coriander seed

Water 10 gals R.O.D.I. White labs yeast nutrient wlnp1000 1 tsp 4g baking soda, 4g epsom salts, 8g calcium chloride. Hardness 120, alk 110, Calcium 70 ppm magnesium 40 ppm.

1.25 oz hall 60 min, 1oz hall 5 min 1/2 whirfloc tab at 15min, Mash temp 148deg 90 min

White labs wlp400 stir plte 1000mL 24 hrs

Acid rest 1 hr at 113

VolDoc fermentation for clove attemps. In a controlled fermentation chamber a starting temp of 65, 67, 69 then moved the temp a deg a day after three days till it reached 3 more deg. This was the starting temps of the 3 different batches I did. Fermentation time 3 weeks.

 

[Yooper]

BigMack

5lb pils 3lb white wheat, 2 lb pale malt, 8oz carmel/crystal malt, 1 lb wheat flake, .87 coriander seed

Water 10 gals R.O.D.I. White labs yeast nutrient wlnp1000 1 tsp 4g baking soda, 4g epsom salts, 8g calcium chloride. Hardness 120, alk 110, Calcium 70 ppm magnesium 40 ppm.

1.25 oz hall 60 min, 1oz hall 5 min 1/2 whirfloc tab at 15min, Mash temp 148deg 90 min

White labs wlp400 stir plte 1000mL 24 hrs

Acid rest 1 hr at 113

VolDoc fermentation for clove attemps. In a controlled fermentation chamber a starting temp of 65, 67, 69 then moved the temp a deg a day after three days till it reached 3 more deg. This was the starting temps of the 3 different batches I did. Fermentation time 3 weeks.

I think your water additions look odd- baking soda? What was the mash pH? I assume that the higher pH was for the ferulic acid rest? Did you lower the pH after the ferulic acid rest to 5.2-5.4? Magnesium is too high, but that wouldn't relate to head retention.

The ferulic acid rest at 113 for an hour is a really long time- 10 minutes at about 110 is usually most recommended from what I know. How did you move the temperature up quickly to saccrification rest temps? I think this is the reason for the destroyed head retention. At 113 for an hour, that ended up being a very long protein rest.

That yeast strain is not very phenolic, compared to some others. For more clove, I'd ditch the ferulic acid rest (not at that effective even if done perfectly, compared to getting a yeast strain with more clove).

 

[GHBWNY]

I've been battling two things on my Belgian Wit one the lack of clove notes and the other head retention or flat beer. ...My main concern is flat beer.

My latest Belgian Wit also has almost no head (maybe 1/4" for the first 2 minutes after pour, then gone) which I chalk up to the relatively small amount of hops in that recipe. But it has great carbonation all the way to the end of the glass.

 

[Merleti]

Yooper
Baking soda or sodium Bicarb (NaHCO3). Magnesium test kit was not accurate. For 4g per 10 gals Brew Smith has the magnesium at 11ppm. Mash pH was in the low 5's. I could use a more accurate test as well.
The reason for the 113 degree for an hour is it was recommended by a Belgian brewery, because that is what they say they do to increase the clove flavor.
To go from 113 to 148 it took 20 min. with a 1500 watt element. How fast should it go?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper
Baking soda or sodium Bicarb (NaHCO3). Magnesium test kit was not accurate. For 4g per 10 gals Brew Smith has the magnesium at 11ppm. Mash pH was in the low 5's. I could use a more accurate test as well.
The reason for the 113 degree for an hour is it was recommended by a Belgian brewery, because that is what they say they do to increase the clove flavor.
To go from 113 to 148 it took 20 min. with a 1500 watt element. How fast should it go?

Leave out the baking soda next time- no way the mash pH was "in the low 5s". I suspect it was quite a bit higher than that.

I wouldn't go 113 for an hour- more like 10 minutes, because that temperature is at the range for a protein rest as well.

 

[Merleti]

Yooper
I apologize if this sounds negative. I'm searching for perfection as you do.
The pH of the R.O.D.I water with the sodium bicarb was 7. The mash pH after acid rest and the just before the sparge look to me to be in the low 5's. I have always been told the grain will lower the pH of the mash and not to worry. Are you suggesting 10 gals of water that pure with 4 grams of sodium bicarb will not end up with a low 5 pH after the mash time?

What is the recommended time for going from 113 deg to 148 deg for the protein rest?

Thank you for your time. Without it lousy beer will prevail.

 

[RM-MN]

Yooper
I apologize if this sounds negative. I'm searching for perfection as you do.
The pH of the R.O.D.I water with the sodium bicarb was 7. The mash pH after acid rest and the just before the sparge look to me to be in the low 5's. I have always been told the grain will lower the pH of the mash and not to worry. Are you suggesting 10 gals of water that pure with 4 grams of sodium bicarb will not end up with a low 5 pH after the mash time?

What is the recommended time for going from 113 deg to 148 deg for the protein rest?

Thank you for your time. Without it lousy beer will prevail.

If your mash pH was in the low 5's, I'd be testing the pH meter against known standards. If you used pH strips to find that low pH, throw them out.

 

[Merleti]

RM-MN I was using strips for testing the mash. I'll get a meter.

According to Beer Smith with the additions I've added to 10 gals of water are
Ca 57.9
Mg 10.4
Na 37
So4 84
Cl 57
HCo3 76

 

[joshesmusica]

I'm just getting into messing with my water, and I have never attempted anything but a single infusion. But I wonder if it would help first to go with a pretty normal, yellow, light, crisp water profile, doing a single 148F infusion, and really focusing on the yeast strain and temps?

I don't doubt the acid rest can help, but, as Yooper said, I believe you can get a very nice clove profile just from fermentation. And with so much wheat, I would have to think that rest is what's hurting your head retention.

I did a hoppy witbier recently in a 25L batch using hallertauer for bittering, northern brewer and cascade as a 5 min addition, and cascade in a whirlpool and dry hop. Dropped in 50g of bitter orange peel, and 30g of coriander. Same yeast you used. Slightly under-pitching, and starting temps at 17.5C, but let it rise as it wanted to. I know that's not exactly what you're going for as far as the hoppy part, but it honestly made a nice crisp, spicy witbier. All of those things complemented each other quite well. And if there was any banana or fruity esters, they were overridden, and not perceptible. I will definitely be brewing it again.

It talks about in the yeast book that under-pitching will help increase flavor compounds, higher temps will increase ester production though. So I think trying to find a balance there is what you're looking for. Also, although I don't think this is your problem, it's a good thing to keep in mind, they mention that over-pitching can also reduce head retention.

 

[IchLiebeBier]

Did you bottle with sugar or those carbonation drops?

I've noticed that when I use the carbonation drops I get a quick frothy head that dissipates very quickly, basically resulting in no head retention and a kind of flat, soda-like body.

All my beers bottled with corn sugar carb up just right.

 

[Merleti]

joshemusica I plan on taking yours and Yoopers advice and skip the acid rest. I will also go back to a starting ferm temp of 65.

IchLiebeBier I used sugar. I also checked different beers throughout the batch to see if it was a mixing problem.

Thank you all for your replies.