Looking for help identifying why FG is 10 points high

[Murphyslaw11]

From a now defunct website: http://www1.picobrewery.com:8193/ask.html

Back to Ask the Brewmaster.

This month's question: I heard that LA DWP and other municipal agencies are replacing chlorine with chloramines. What will that do to my beer? Should I make any changes in my brewery?

Answer:
Most brewers know that chlorine can do two things to your brewing process:

Keep your equipment sterile, which is a good thing.
Generate foul-tasting byproducts, which can ruin your beer.
Hence, most brewers have sort of a love-hate relationship with chlorine.

Chlorine is added to the municipal water supply to kill bacteria, fungi, viruses and other health-threatening items organisms. This makes it possible to use municipal water to top up partial boil batches, rinse out your siphon hose and other convenient things. Without chlorine, we would have to boil every last bit of water that ever touches the beer, and rely much more heavily on other sterilizing agents such as iodophor. To the best extent possible, chlorine should be prevented from getting into beer. The reason for this is that chlorine can react with the myriad organic chemicals to create chloroorganics. Some of these compounds have strong undesirable tastes or aromas. Probably the most notable is chlorophenolic, which can form when chlorine reacts with the phenolic components of grain husks, particularly p-hydroxybenzoic acid. Other compounds that can form are simpler compounds such as chloroform.

The municipal process of disinfecting water can create similar chlorinated chemical compounds. Many chlorinated compounds are carcinogenic, so the city has been looking for ways to disinfect water without the use of chlorine. Chloramines fit the bill, so the city is currently in the process of phasing in chloramines and phasing out chlorine. For the next few years, your tap water can have either chloramines, chlorine, or both.

Chloramines are harder to remove from water than chlorine. Chlorine can be removed by letting water stand for 48 hours, or by boiling. However, these don't work for chloramines. Hence, some new tricks are needed. The simplest method you probably already have at hand is carbon filtration. Activated charcoal filters work, but they doesn't absorb as readily as chlorine, so you have to run the water through more slowly. A typical homebrew-sized filter can only take about a pint per minute, so you would have to start early to collect enough for your batch.

If you don't have patience with slow filtration, you can try chemical dechlorinators. Campden tablets, using sodium metabisulfate will do the trick. However, you have to be careful to not overdo it, since excess sulfite can stunt or kill your yeast. A quarter tablet per 5 gallon batch is needed. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will work too, and in smaller doses. You need about 4 ppm, or about 0.08 grams for a 5 gallon batch. This is what kidney dialysis systems in hospitals use. Ascorbic acid is probably a better bet, since a bit of extra won't kill yeast. It will bring down the pH of your brewing water, though the amount needed is so small it is unlikely to have much of an impact. If you have plenty of patience, note that chloramines is degraded by sunlight. A week in a carboy outside should do the trick. UV lamps work too.

The good news is that the presence of chloramines in your beer is far less deleterious than chlorine. Keep an eye on your yeast activity. As long as the yeast is doing OK, the chloramines levels is probably OK. Formation of chlorophenolics and other chlorinated byproducts are reduced by 98% with chloramines relative to chlorine. That means even if you do leave some of it in your brewing water, it won't be a significant problem.

Was this meant to respond to my thread? If so I’m not following how it relates

 

[Murphyslaw11]

My PID controller temp sensor was not calibrated. I was not mashing at the temp I thought I was. Once I calibrated it my FG have been spot on

Yeah that’s for sure the case with my RoboBrew. I was using other thermometers to make sure I hit temps, but it’s possible I still missed. I’m working on calibration. Thanks for your tip

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Was this meant to respond to my thread? If so I’m not following how it relates

Don't worry I'm just being targeted, brew on

 

[hottpeper13]

You might have to blend that sweet brew. The first decoction screwed you. I dough in at 122* at a 1:1 qt/lb then add boiling liquor at 20 min to get to 143*. Let that sit for 30 min then pull a thick batch and bring to 160* stirring constantly. Let that sit 30 min then boil for 20-30 min. After this is up to you but I add it back for the 158-160 rest then pull another decoction for mashout. A single decoction isn't worth the effort so i always do a double.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Do you think I should have chosen either Caramunich or a decoction mash, not both?

There are arguments if caraxxxx acts s a true crystal malt or not. I treat them like they are, which means they don't ferment out completely. You used a pound, which seems like a lot. I've never used caramunich as a decoction flavor, but have used melanoidin. I guess it works.

In terms of your decoction, I typically do a longer rest in the 150's to convert the mash before going to boil. If your decoction mash was not mostly converted, I feel it is just like mashing at too high a temp.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I'm BAAAck. Irrespective of the fact that I missed that the OP used RO water, I expressed my BELIEFS, my EXPERIENCES, METHOD and fix, so as to not change the taste of the beer, and provided said method to prevent yeast dropping out early and leaving a lower than expected FG.

I mean isn't that why we're HERE?

The purpose of chlorine and chloramines is to nullify biological material. Is not yeast cells one and the same?

If you cannot access said links, I can provide PDFs of said articles. PM me and I will make it so.

Prior targeted for references, I present thus:

https://www.uspurewater.com/chloram...impact breweries,usage of chloramines at 4ppm.

Chloramination will also impact breweries, and bakeries as yeast and enzymes can not survive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramination

Chloramine is generally considered a problem in brewing beer; like chlorine it can react with and change some of the natural plant flavors that make up the beer, and it may slow or alter the yeast. Because chloramine dissipates much more slowly than chlorine from water, beer-makers prefer carbon filtration and / or Campden tablets to neutralize it in the water.

I stand at rest, awaiting the next round fired at me.

 

[mashdar]

Please make a different thread and don't hijack this one. It's fine to suggest water treatment, but trying to get in a keyboard fight about it is not helpful.


Please don't make it about you. We're here to talk about a 1.024 mystery!

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I simply did what was asked of me.

 

[Beermeister32]

You can also add some amylase enzyme to your fermenter to bring the FG down. It helps to dry out an excessively cloying condition in your beer.

Not the greatest thing but it can help!

 

[mashdar]

You can also add some amylase enzyme to your fermenter to bring the FG down. It helps to dry out an excessively cloying condition in your beer.

Not the greatest thing but it can help!

Would this push FG below 1.000, or would dextrines etc survive in sufficient quantity to have some sweetness?

 

[Beermeister32]

My experience is that it won’t go that low. Maybe 5-10 points. To get it lower I suppose you could use Beano like some of the really dry and Brut IPA folks do. I suspect you would still have some residual dextrines.

 

[day_trippr]

The usual Amylase blends won't take a beer below 1.000 - they'll get down to single digits though.
If you really want super dry, use Glucoamylase enzyme...

Cheers!

 

[Murphyslaw11]

You can also add some amylase enzyme to your fermenter to bring the FG down. It helps to dry out an excessively cloying condition in your beer.

Not the greatest thing but it can help!View attachment 857572

I am going to try this. Thank you for the suggestion.

For anyone curious, I bought another pack of the yeast, made a 2L starter, cold crashed and pitched with 5g yeast nutrient. Adding the yeast nutrient made the beer rise and spill out a bit onto the floor. I was able to stop it pretty quickly with the lid, pressurize to 6 psi and left it for 5 days. It only dropped to 1.021 and still tastes very sweet.

I really appreciate this suggestion of amylase enzyme since I’ve never used it or heard about it as a product. When I add it to the fermenter, should I just use the recommended dose as per the package and swirl the yeast into suspension? If there’s another method, I’m standing by for your suggestion

 

[day_trippr]

I've used what I presume is a typical amylase blend (LD Carlson) at the package's recommended rate (1/2 tsp per 5 gallons of wort) and it definitely lowered the FG. I dispersed it in a drawn bit of the target wort/beer - maybe 60 ml - and pushed that back in and let it run its course. It could probably be just sprinkled atop the wort/beer alternatively...

Cheers!

 

[Beermeister32]

When I add it to the fermenter, should I just use the recommended dose as per the package and swirl the yeast into suspension?

That’s how I’ve done it! Tip the carboy a bit and get the beer wort swirling to blend.

 

[Bobby_M]

Fair point about the yeast. This could be it. I just bought another pack of the same yeast. I’ll pitch it tonight and see if it does the trick

Did you happen to catch the packaging date?

 

[Murphyslaw11]

I've used what I presume is a typical amylase blend (LD Carlson) at the package's recommended rate (1/2 tsp per 5 gallons of wort) and it definitely lowered the FG. I dispersed it in a drawn bit of the target wort/beer - maybe 60 ml - and pushed that back in and let it run its course. It could probably be just sprinkled atop the wort/beer alternatively...

Cheers!

Thanks for the recommendation

 

[Murphyslaw11]

That’s how I’ve done it! Tip the carboy a bit and get the beer wort swirling to blend.

Thank you for the tip

 

[Murphyslaw11]

Did you happen to catch the packaging date?

No unfortunately I didn’t. I should’ve in retrospect

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Alot of yeasts that flocculate medium or low do better with extended age to allow the yeast to pack on the bottom and then the ABV lowers down over some time as it clears.
Sort of an attrition by proxy.
Software gives an estimated FG, but that is never set in stone. The accepted routine for finalizing the final gravity checks are that if it doesn't lower anymore over a period of 3 days, then the yeast has done it's best and time to rack to the carbing vessel. But even that is not a guarantee the FG won't drift down, an example is the old Windsor yeast. It has a reputation that it may take months for that one to drift down by attrition proxy.

 

[Murphyslaw11]

Alot of yeasts that flocculate medium or low do better with extended age to allow the yeast to pack on the bottom and then the ABV lowers down over some time as it clears.
Sort of an attrition by proxy.
Software gives an estimated FG, but that is never set in stone. The accepted routine for finalizing the final gravity checks are that if it doesn't lower anymore over a period of 3 days, then the yeast has done it's best and time to rack to the carbing vessel. But even that is not a guarantee the FG won't drift down, an example is the old Windsor yeast. It has a reputation that it may take months for that one to drift down by attrition proxy.

Thanks for this. I wonder if pressure just isn’t great for this yeast strain and caused it to floc early

 

[Murphyslaw11]

That’s how I’ve done it! Tip the carboy a bit and get the beer wort swirling to blend.

I have an update for you. I bought BSG amylase enzyme and added it at 0.25 tsp per gallon (around 1.25 tsp) per package recommendation, swirled the keg, and placed it back at 10 psi. I also added a heat wrap and bumped the temp to 77F. I haven’t heard anything from the spunding valve yet. What do you think I should do? I haven’t tested the gravity yet, for clarity

 

[Murphyslaw11]

I bought BSG amylase enzyme and added it at 0.25 tsp per gallon (around 1.25 tsp) per package recommendation

I am happy to report that the FG dropped to 1.011. Thanks to everyone in this thread for all of the help.

 

[hungupdown]

I am happy to report that the FG dropped to 1.011. Thanks to everyone in this thread for all of the help.

Glad you got a good result.
It looks like mash temperature must have been too high, during the Beta-amylase rest. Causing Beta-amylase enzyme to be denatured too soon.
Ratio and final temperature, of the decoction volume heated, controls the step temperature of the mix. As enzymes, in portion heated/boiled, are mostly denatured, it's important the unheated fraction still has sufficient enzymes left.
Also, I'm suspicious of figures given as the 'correct' mash step temperatures. As temperatures can vary a lot, depending on where measured.
After switching to using a RAPT Bluetooth probe thermometer, to control mash temperature, rather than AIO system built in sensor. The first few brews all seemed to end up with a much higher body&mouthfeel, than usual. Temperature at core of the mash, is often 5°C lower than temperature (by heater base) reported by system. And temperature diverges, for longer, when step mashing (using system heating, rather than decoctions).
Which reading should be correct?
The 'correct' mash temperatures quoted, come from before the days of BT probe thermometers and computer graph logging.

 

[Murphyslaw11]

Glad you got a good result.
It looks like mash temperature must have been too high, during the Beta-amylase rest. Causing Beta-amylase enzyme to be denatured too soon.
Ratio and final temperature, of the decoction volume heated, controls the step temperature of the mix. As enzymes, in portion heated/boiled, are mostly denatured, it's important the unheated fraction still has sufficient enzymes left.
Also, I'm suspicious of figures given as the 'correct' mash step temperatures. As temperatures can vary a lot, depending on where measured.
After switching to using a RAPT Bluetooth probe thermometer, to control mash temperature, rather than AIO system built in sensor. The first few brews all seemed to end up with a much higher body&mouthfeel, than usual. Temperature at core of the mash, is often 5°C lower than temperature (by heater base) reported by system. And temperature diverges, for longer, when step mashing (using system heating, rather than decoctions).
Which reading should be correct?
The 'correct' mash temperatures quoted, come from before the days of BT probe thermometers and computer graph logging.

Thanks a lot for all of your input. As with a lot of the great advice in this thread, I’m left with the question, “What do I actually do about it in future brews?”
Again, thank you for addressing why I experienced issues with the brew. If you have any advice on control measures to implement, I would be appreciative

 

[doug293cz]

It looks like mash temperature must have been too high, during the Beta-amylase rest. Causing Beta-amylase enzyme to be denatured too soon.

OP used BSG Amylase Enzyme in their fermenter to reduce the ultimate FG. The BSG website says this about their product:

"Fungal α-amylase is a powder fungal alpha-amylase from Aspergillus oryzae... ​

​

... Breaks 1,4 linkage in starch during liquefication, producing dextrin and a small amout of maltose. Leaves 1,6 links, therefore self-limiting. Use if you have a starch problem in storage, or in light beers..."​

Since the low fermentability issue was fixed using only alpha amylase, beta amylase action, or inaction, during the mash was irrelevant. The issue was either there were insufficient enzymes in the original mash, mash time was too short for the amylase to complete its work of reducing starch to limit dextrins and fermentable sugar, or the mash temp was high enough to cause the enzymes to be denatured before the end of the mash, so that there were soluble starches, and larger (non-limit) dextrins remaining in the wort at the end of the mash.

Brew on

 

[DuncB]

Mash temperatures are the most likely cause of your high FG ( pre enzyme addition)

I have an all in one with PID and can monitor the temp sensor in the base as well as the temp at the end of the recirculation arm which is approximately the mash temp.
The simple controller on the robobrew has an on or off thermostat control really, the element is in the middle of the kettle and the sensor on the outside, if the flow in the kettle from the malt pipe and back down is slow the sensor can read low whilst other areas of liquor get heated more than intended on the element.
This is difficult to prevent with the design of the simple AIO units ( flaw ). Don't mash with both elements on, I had a robobrew 3 before my current unit, used the 1000W element to ramp whilst watching rise and then changing to 500 W element near target temp to reduce overshoot. Ensuring good flow through the mash bed throughout.
Other advice about yeast pitch, pH, yeast nutrient and salts should also be addressed.
Then hopefully gravities should be nearer target.

 

[Beermeister32]

Just making sure you have an accurate temperature gauge is huge.

Somehow mine got to be 10 degrees off once, and needed recalibration. Messed up a few batches until I figured it out.