looking for Echt Kriekenbier recipe

[Dogphish]

i love Kriekenbier but it costs $8 for a bottle at the local bar. CAN I MAKE A DECENT CHERRY SOUR ALE, OR AM I DREAMING?

i want the beer to be more like Etch or Monk's Cafe flemish sour ale. i DO NOT want to make Lindemans cherry lambic.
http://haveabeer.couchand.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-08-15-verhaege.jpg
http://passionbeer.com/wp-content/themes/FREEmium/img/monks-flemish.jpg

i just started brewing. have done one extract and two all grain batches. the all grain was very good. is this beer only for experts?

i think i will try to make it next year, when the sour cherries are ripe in everyones backyard here in VA. are these sour cherries (too sour to eat) the right kind for making Kriekebier?

 

[Oldsock]

If you want to do a sour fruit beer, the best time to start is now. You want the beer to have had 6+ months to sour before the fruit goes in.

Normally I like adding the various bugs along with the primary ale strain at the start of fermentation. This leads to a very dry/sour beer. In your case I would let the beer ferment out and then add a pack of Roeselare blend in secondary. When cherries are in season get ~1 lb per gallon, freeze them (to break the cell walls), put them in a fermenter and let them defrost, then rack the beer onto them.

For the base beer I like to use equal parts of pils, Munich, and Vienna. Then add ~1.5 lbs of cara/crystal malt (some medium some dark), and a pound of flaked wheat. Keep the IBUs in the mid-teens, and add an ounce of cubes oak to the secondary.

This will get you close, but it will still be drier than most of the commercial versions since they blend and pasteurize their beer before bottling.

Hope that helps, good luck.

 

[Dogphish]

thanks, Oldsock. i did not know if i would get a single response.

i'm new to the term "bugs". i guess that means beer spoiling microorganisms, not insects that are going to crawl out of the fermenter.

let me see if i've got this right... freeze cherries, allow them to thaw in the secondary, pitch Roeselare, then rack the beer into the secondary?

i'm thinking of not adding the oak chips. i'm half asian, and anything with wood/oak (red wine/bourbon/beer) usually gives me terrible hangover and headaches. maybe the tannins.

 

[Dogphish]

"You want the beer to have had 6+ months to sour before the fruit goes in."
"For the base beer I like to use equal parts of pils, Munich, and Vienna. Then add ~1.5 lbs of cara/crystal malt (some medium some dark), and a pound of flaked wheat."

^i'm new at brewing (have "memorized" two Papazian books) and i'm not certain which souring method you are using.

Papazian says to mash 5.5 - 7.5 lbs of crushed malt, then cool to 130 degrees in an insulated 5 gallon bucket, add .5 lb crushed malt (to introduce natural lacto bacillus), cover mash surface with aluminum foil, let sour for 15 to 24 hours. remove any mold etc from the surface. then lauder, sparge, and continue as you would with any beer. you are suggesting a different method?

tell me if i have this wrong: mash pils, munich, vienna, crystal, and wheat together. boil and ferment, rack to secondary pitch bugs and sour 6 months, then add cherries to a third fermenter and rack again? how long would you leave it mixed with cherries? sour cherries?

 

[Oldsock]

I was probably less precise with my words than I should have been, but it sounds like you've got it. Add the Roeselare (which contains the key "bugs" Lactobacillus, Pediococcus, and Brettanomyces) along with the oak when you rack to secondary after primary fermentation is complete (about two weeks). Wait 6-12 months, then do the bit with the cherries racking to tertiary onto the defrosted fruit. I'd leave it for at least a couple months on the fruit, but I've gone over a year with fine results.

What Papazian is describing is a sour mash. This technique certainly can work, but it is more variable, and in my experience doesn't produce as complex or delicious a sour beer. Sour mashes are not a common technique with European sour brewers who tend to rely on the longer multi-microbe method.

No worries skipping the oak, it isn't a big part of the flavor profile of Belgian sours.

Here is a post I did on my thoughts on brewing sour beers: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/brewing-sour-beer-at-home.html Wild Brews is an excellent book if you are looking for something even more in-depth.

 

[Dogphish]

excellent. your guidance is GREATLY appreciated. i will have to try this at least once.

 

[BrewNinja1]

I had the same initial thoughts...read Oldsock's blog about sour beers, then bought Wild Brews. Im about 2/3 of the way through it, its not written the greatest, however it contains a TON of information. I have learned a lot from it. Cant wait to try my first sour brew. Although after reading the book (or part of the book so far), I do understand why the beer is so expensive. Good luck!

 

[Dogphish]

Is a lagering refrigerator required for making sour beer?

 

[Dogphish]

Where do you get your Roeselare blend? I live in VA, and travel near DC frequently if you know a store that carries it.

 

[Oldsock]

Nope. most traditional Belgian sours are brewed without any sort of temeprature control. As long as the temp is in the 60s into the low 70s you should be fine (even higher than that is alright after the beer is going).

I believe My LHBS in Falls Church has it, but you should give them a call before going too far out of your way.

 

[Ciliorozo]

Where do you get your Roeselare blend? I live in VA, and travel near DC frequently if you know a store that carries it.

Austin Homebrew has the Wyeast version. Its Wyeast 3763, maybe a LHBS close to you knows it by this?

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=11118

 

[Dogphish]

so, here's the recipe i came up with. i'm shooting for 6.8% ABV, so i'm going with 1.065 OG and 1.020 FG then pitch the bugs which will lower the FG even more. i've been having some problems with brewhouse efficiency, so i'm going with 14.5 lbs of grain to ensure a high OG and 5.5 to 6 gallons into the primary.

mash at 157 F for 60 minutes.

4 lbs Pils
4 lbs Munich
4 lbs Vienna
1 lb Flakes Wheat or Malted Wheat
1 lb Crystal 60
.5 lb Special B

1 to 1.25 oz Saaz [3.2 AA]

English Ale Yeast WLP002 liquid in primary
Roselare blend in secondary


**Please comment if any of this looks wrong

 

[Oldsock]

I'd drink it. Good luck.

 

[Dogphish]

should i add some dextrin to my beer? FG was 1.015 when i racked to secondary and pitched the Roeselare. i was thinking about adding enough dextrin to boost the SG to 1.025.

i missed my mash temperature due to cheap thermometers. i'm going to get a digi and water proof it before the next batch.

 

[el_kirk]

Any updates on this?

 

[Dogphish]

it is still in the secondary fermenter. i haven't checked it in a full year.

 

[el_kirk]

Well, I guess I need to be patient. If you can, I'd love to hear a follow up report when you bottle it.


Kirk

 

[Dogphish]

The air lock dried up completely. I just checked the fermenter. It had been about a year since the previous time i had checked it. The Pellicle is very thick, about an inch.

I filled the lock with water.

 

[Oldsock]

The air lock dried up completely. I just checked the fermenter. It had been about a year since the previous time i had checked it. The Pellicle is very thick, about an inch.

I filled the lock with water.

Give it a taste, sadly the odds are that you have malt vinegar.

 

[Dogphish]

if the batch is spoiled then does that mean that the bugs should NOT be used to inoculate another batch?

 

[TimTrone]

if the batch is spoiled then does that mean that the bugs should NOT be used to inoculate another batch?

If it is spoiled, I wouldn't inoculate anything else with it. You don't know for sure what else is in there.

Taste it before you do anything. It may be perfectly fine. Besides, sour beers are technically infected anyways, right?

 

[Dogphish]

Give it a taste, sadly the odds are that you have malt vinegar.

Tasted today. It tastes GREAT! It's only mildly sour.

Based on my memory, it's a dead ringer for BFM Bon-Chien. All it needs is some oak chips.

 

[TimTrone]

Awesome. Glad to hear it. It would suck to wait a year to have vinegar.