LHBS (when your LHBS Stinks and it is time to walk away)

[Pyg]

I have 3 LHBS in my area, lets call them L, S & R.
The issue is one of them is centrally located

R is 12 minutes from my office (22 from home)
S is 34 minutes from my office (21 from home)
L is on my way home I can be in an out in 5 minutes and pick up my kids on time and not have to battle rushhour traffic.

While R & S are fantastic I can not make it to them on a work day, due to rush hour traffic and still play the roll of Mr Mom and pick up my kids on time.
This leaves me having to frequent L.

As I have detailed in other places I recently purchased a LHBS cream ale Kit from this place, because as a frequent customer I had built up store credit and got a discount. I got the $42 kit for just about $23. However on the day of my boil I ran into so many things that left a bad taste in my mouth (hopefully not my brew).

1-there was no prime sugar in the kit. (I later returned and was given a ziplock of sugar for the kit and it was only 4 oz, while all the calculator indicate closer to 4.5 oz)

2-the LME was from July, which I did not notice until I started dumping it in to the boil. There was no date on the DME

3-the ingredients provided could barely get to the OG level on the typed instructions. This is something I have since learned thanks to the expertise and assistance of those on HBT. 3.3# LME (light) 2# DME (gold) will not reach a range of 1.042 to 1.056 as indicated on the directions.

4- One The hops were just barely at the level indicated, I understand it is only .5oz, but .45oz in a Ziploc bag is not .5!

I don’t think it is the owner’s fault, since I know he has a full time job. He is just trying to make a few bucks and he doesn’t make beer or wine! The shop is left to be run by an elderly women who knows nothing about brewing and a little about wine making. She knows how to follow the directions on the low end kits they carry, but little else. However she most likely typed up the directions and put the kit together. In fact When I returned for the prime sugar she told me in her usual apathetic way that she made the kit and it probably slipped her mind.

I emailed the owner, who I assumed checks the email he has listed on his webpage. I indicated while there was little to be done now that I have boiled, I wanted him to know that you should not sell a kit where the directions indicate a potential SG of .042 to 1.056, when the ingredient provided can barely reach that. I told him about the dissatisfaction of being misled on their kit, but I have not heard back from him.


My issue now is how do I make a stand & Tell him I will not buy anything except caps and cleaner from him, and do I even bother? Like I previously indicated, this LHBS is on the way home and does have reasonably priced beer kits (that they didn’t make) and other items. Maybe it is just the dingbat that puts the kits together?
The other 2 are so out of my way, but if I have to I will just amend my ways!

Any thoughts?

(sorry for the long winded rant, SWMBO would not listen to it)

 

[corycorycory09]

I have 3 LHBS in my area, lets call them L, S & R.
The issue is one of them is centrally located

R is 12 minutes from my office (22 from home)
S is 34 minutes from my office (21 from home)
L is on my way home I can be in an out in 5 minutes and pick up my kids on time and not have to battle rushhour traffic.

While R & S are fantastic I can not make it to them on a work day, due to rush hour traffic and still play the roll of Mr Mom and pick up my kids on time.
This leaves me having to frequent L.

As I have detailed in other places I recently purchased a LHBS cream ale Kit from this place, because as a frequent customer I had built up store credit and got a discount. I got the $42 kit for just about $23. However on the day of my boil I ran into so many things that left a bad taste in my mouth (hopefully not my brew).

1-there was no prime sugar in the kit. (I later returned and was given a ziplock of sugar for the kit and it was only 4 oz, while all the calculator indicate closer to 4.5 oz)

2-the LME was from July, which I did not notice until I started dumping it in to the boil. There was no date on the DME

3-the ingredients provided could barely get to the OG level on the typed instructions. This is something I have since learned thanks to the expertise and assistance of those on HBT. 3.3# LME (light) 2# DME (gold) will not reach a range of 1.042 to 1.056 as indicated on the directions.

4- One The hops were just barely at the level indicated, I understand it is only .5oz, but .45oz in a Ziploc bag is not .5!

I don’t think it is the owner’s fault, since I know he has a full time job. He is just trying to make a few bucks and he doesn’t make beer or wine! The shop is left to be run by an elderly women who knows nothing about brewing and a little about wine making. She knows how to follow the directions on the low end kits they carry, but little else. However she most likely typed up the directions and put the kit together. In fact When I returned for the prime sugar she told me in her usual apathetic way that she made the kit and it probably slipped her mind.

I emailed the owner, who I assumed checks the email he has listed on his webpage. I indicated while there was little to be done now that I have boiled, I wanted him to know that you should not sell a kit where the directions indicate a potential SG of .042 to 1.056, when the ingredient provided can barely reach that. I told him about the dissatisfaction of being misled on their kit, but I have not heard back from him.


My issue now is how do I make a stand & Tell him I will not buy anything except caps and cleaner from him, and do I even bother? Like I previously indicated, this LHBS is on the way home and does have reasonably priced beer kits (that they didn’t make) and other items. Maybe it is just the dingbat that puts the kits together?
The other 2 are so out of my way, but if I have to I will just amend my ways!

Any thoughts?

(sorry for the long winded rant, SWMBO would not listen to it)

Never heard of hops being sold in ziploc bags... sounds really sketchy.

Maybe try buying ingredients instead of kits. There are tons of recipes on this forum. That way you know exactly what you are getting.

 

[Psylocide]

Plan ahead.

Go on Saturday or Sunday to one of the good ones, get everything you need.

Profit.

 

[stpug]

I understand your frustration but maybe instead of boycotting them you could simply create your own recipes and buy the ingredients individually. This way you have control over what you buy and know what you're getting, AND THEN anything omitted/overlooked/forgotten/miscalculated with be your fault

 

[atoughram]

Never heard of hops being sold in ziploc bags... sounds really sketchy.

Maybe try buying ingredients instead of kits. There are tons of recipes on this forum. That way you know exactly what you are getting.

I agree... I saved a ton of money by buying in bulk. My LHBS sells hops in un-vacuumed sealed baggys (No different than a cheap zip-lock) for $2.75/oz and I buy hops mail order at $10-20/pound and vacuum seal them myself.

I only go to the LHBS to buy specialty grains, yeast, and hops that I dont have.

 

[Mike_kever_kombi]

Why not take your new found knowledge, and make up some recipes, the proper amount of ingredients, and instructions. Type them out and try talking to the owner about implementing some of your recipes in his store.

You stated neither he nor the old lady brew beer, so they probably just don't know any better.

Perhaps you can come to some sort of agreement, and get the in store kits for a discount.

People tend to respond better when they feel they are being helped, and not attacked or threatened, not that that was your intention

 

[Auger]

I'm not sure I would bother with the whole "how to tell him I'm making a stand" bit. Just stop going, give your business to the other places, even if it requires some advance planning.

 

[bragona71]

you can order online also! or do what I would do, call in sick, go to the good LHBS, forget the kids and have a brew day all to yourself Just kidding obviously, I would go get your supplies on a Saturday and brew sunday.make it an outing with the kids grab ice cream or yogurt shop whatever they like and the wife gets a couple hours alone and wont complain when you brew the next day!! see everyone wins

 

[Darwin18]

$42's for a cream ale kit?! Damn extract is expensive...

I have two homebrew stores that are within a reasonable drive to me. I won't go to one because the owner insulted me when I was a new brewer. I basically was asking his staff questions about an off-flavor and he acted like I was wasting their time. I was the only customer in the store and buying merchandise so yeah....

Fortunately there's a much better homebrew store closer to where I work that has way more inventory and great staff. Atlantic homebrew supply in Raleigh - check it out.

 

[SnakeRidge]

I'm not sure I would bother with the whole "how to tell him I'm making a stand" bit. Just stop going, give your business to the other places, even if it requires some advance planning.

My thoughts exactly. Also realize that part of the trade off in the convenience of kits is that you lose control of what you're getting. Take responsibility for the recipe, and you won't get burned by some other guy's bad scale.

 

[SnakeRidge]

$42's for a cream ale kit?! Damn extract is expensive...

Again, just what I thought. You got 2# DME and a can of LME with a half ounce of hops for (the discounted price of) $23? Dang.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Plan ahead.
Go on Saturday or Sunday to one of the good ones, get everything you need.
Profit.

Yup, this is what I do. There are closer stores, but the one I like to shop at is over an hour round trip. I like to buy my ingredients two brews at a time.

 

[tnance1337]

It sounds like they won't be in business for long, anyway, and you won't have to worry about making that decision. Maybe...sometimes I'm amazed at the ability for a business to stay afloat with terrible service or products.

My advice would be to leave it be. It's not your responsibility to help them be better. They should have had that figured out long before they opened up. Small mistakes happen, but they seem fairly apathetic, from your side of the story anyway.

Also, start designing your own recipes, and buy your ingredients in bulk. Plan ahead, make the drive on the weekend, and leave the bad business in your dust.

 

[Pyg]

Never heard of hops being sold in ziploc bags... sounds really sketchy.

Maybe try buying ingredients instead of kits. There are tons of recipes on this forum. That way you know exactly what you are getting.

Actually the other reputable LHBS sold me a store made kit with Hops in a ziplock baggy. I dont know how else they would do it, when they have to separate 1 oz, .5oz etc..

I understand your frustration but maybe instead of boycotting them you could simply create your own recipes and buy the ingredients individually. This way you have control over what you buy and know what you're getting, AND THEN anything omitted/overlooked/forgotten/miscalculated with be your fault

I am already cruising some brew recipe posting pages and finding how to put together something, or a clone.

Again, just what I thought. You got 2# DME and a can of LME with a half ounce of hops for (the discounted price of) $23? Dang.

it was actually 2 oz of hops.
1 oz and 2-.5 ozs
but being my 2nd kit, I just was not aware. They also sell Mr beer Kits for about the same price $42 an up. But based on my calculations this morning, at $23 I may have got the ingredients for about what was worth had I bought it separately.
But this is a learning process!

 

[corycorycory09]

Actually the other reputable LHBS sold me a store made kit with Hops in a ziplock baggy. I dont know how else they would do it, when they have to separate 1 oz, .5oz etc..

My lhbs carries hopunion packages:

If you want a kit, I can recommend "Brewers Best". They use hopunion hops as well.

I would never buy hops that aren't vaccum sealed. Especially if they've been sitting at room temperature.

 

[Pyg]

My lhbs carries hopunion packages:

If you want a kit, I can recommend "Brewers Best". They use hopunion hops as well.

I would never buy hops that aren't vaccum sealed. Especially if they've been sitting at room temperature.

I know the LHBS "R" keeps all their hops and beer ingredients in a room that is kept cooler. And alot of air tight container. However they do more business so most their stuff does not sit around for long.

Also for some of the recipes when I only need 1/4 or 1/2 an ounce they give me just that amount, so I dont have have to buy 1 oz only to use 1/4 of it, and subsequently have left overs!

 

[SnakeRidge]

But this is a learning process!

And it never stops!

I honestly haven't bought extract in 5+ years, so I don't really know the prices anymore.

 

[RM-MN]

I know the LHBS "R" keeps all their hops and beer ingredients in a room that is kept cooler. And alot of air tight container. However they do more business so most their stuff does not sit around for long.

Also for some of the recipes when I only need 1/4 or 1/2 an ounce they give me just that amount, so I dont have have to buy 1 oz only to use 1/4 of it, and subsequently have left overs!

Those aren't leftovers, they are starters for your next brew. I often open a packet of hops, use part of them, then fold the top back and secure it with a clothespin and put it in the refrigerator to use in a future brew. They will keep for quite a while in the refrigerator that way.

 

[jimjohson]

If your going to quit going, I'd send a polite email explaining what I'm doing and why.

 

[Pyg]

It sounds like they won't be in business for long, anyway, and you won't have to worry about making that decision. Maybe...sometimes I'm amazed at the ability for a business to stay afloat with terrible service or products.

My advice would be to leave it be. It's not your responsibility to help them be better. They should have had that figured out long before they opened up. Small mistakes happen, but they seem fairly apathetic, from your side of the story anyway.

Also, start designing your own recipes, and buy your ingredients in bulk. Plan ahead, make the drive on the weekend, and leave the bad business in your dust.

They have been in business for well over 10 years. The store has actually grown bigger.
Of course now they are starting to ramp up their brewing, but they have their regulars who buy the kits and fresh juice buckets and cider & honey.

The owner used to have atleast 1/2 dozen carboys of wine sitting out for all to see. I took a look at them and mentioned to the women that the carboys were 3/4 full and labeled 2008, so chances are they have well oxidized. The next time I stopped in the were all gone and a kegging system (1 corny keg and a nitro tank) was in its place (selling for $300).

 

[tnance1337]

I sometimes forget how many suckers there are out there.

 

[Pyg]

I sometimes forget how many suckers there are out there.

Actually I am a Noob!

 

[Kharnynb]

I hate you all for having so much choice nearby. All I got is half a shelf at a discount store and 2week waits for packages from net shops.

 

[CBXBob]

I do most of my shopping online, from multiple companies. The variety is fantastic, the prices are competitive, and shipping is reasonable. The UPS guy probably thinks I'm a drunk But I love good beer

 

[TheMattTrain]

I have two shops that I frequent. They're both about 30 minutes from home. One is a little closer to work (20 minutes) so I tend to go there. It's run by the owner who is incredibly knowledgeable. He doesn't always have what I need but he can either order it or sell me on an alternative. I'm not a picky brewer most of the time, so swapping out a yeast or a hop isn't usually a big deal to me. I've been brewing since January 2014 and have exclusively gotten my grain, hops, and yeast from him. I can send him an e-mail or text him my grain bill and he will mill it for me so that when I stop in after work I'm only there for 5 minutes to pick out my hops and yeast and be on my way. Sometimes he's a little impatient with conversation, but if I'm talking about beer, he's all ears and very helpful. He always mills the grain and about 90% of the time will even measure my grain for me and pull my hops and yeast.

The other store is MUCH nicer looking and has more equipment, so I get stuff from them like keg parts, siphons, carboys, etc. They're very nice people, but they're more interested in wine making than beer and their grain is over priced.

I'm fortunate to have the option of two stores, but I can guarantee you I wouldn't go back to a store that didn't have knowledgeable/caring staff and over charged me for stuff they didn't provide. I don't know what I would tell them either. I'd just stop going.

 

[sboyajian]

I have the same problem. I'll use the same letters..

I have L and R.

L is about 10 minutes from my house, R is about 30.

L has grains all over the floor. LME is dripping out of barrels onto the floor. They don't close all the buckets of grain at night. I'm pretty sure the owner has 2 cats that roam around in there even when closed. Whenever I go he is out of something. Lactose sugar, specific hops, etc. He is always out of specific hops. Doesn't have certain size buckets or fermenters. He has screwed up charging me in the past and double charged me for items or forgot to put items I have purchased in the bag. He is not a people person. One time when I went in, I bought what I needed for one recipe and when I found out he didn't have what I needed for another, I just asked him if he had a brown ale kit. I got home and found the recipe for an Amber Ale.

R is, as I mentioned, further out. It is also 10-20% more expensive, hell, some things are 40-50% more. However, the shop is immaculate. They always have everything I need plus more. They keep an inventory of about 300% more.

It took me walking into shop R only once to realize I'd never go back to L ever again, unless I was pressed for time and needed something very specific that I knew he would have.

 

[jtratcliff]

I gave up on my LHBS in favor of Morebeer and and other online suppliers.

I only go to the LHBS for bottle caps (oddly enough, the *only* thing that is a better deal than online),
specialty grains I've run out of and need right now, or specific liquid yeasts (price isn't horrible and
I can check the dates).

I don't need to be charged more to be treated like they're doing me a favor by acknowledging my existence.

The 10lb sacks of grain from Morebeer are cheaper than my LHBS grain prices... and they're delivered to my house in just a couple days (free shipping over $60). Bulk hops from Farmhouse in 4 oz or 1lb sizes are also cheaper, even including the cost of shipping.

A new LHBS just opened up this month a half hour or so in the other direction. I haven't a chance to go there yet, but it won't take much to get me to switch even the caps, etc. purchases to the new guys.

 

[chawn]

I have a brew store 5 minutes away from my house. The owner and employees are extract brewers and discourage all grain. When I was considering biab, the owner not only discouraged it, but attempted to demean me. So I now make a 25 minute drive to the next closest LHBS. I didn't confront the owner in any way. I simply moved on.

 

[rodwha]

I like to buy local when I can. I went into a homebrew shop where things were in a bit of disarray and dirty. The guy who owns it doesn't acknowledge you or ask if you need any help. Reading online reviews most others get this same service unless you are one of his regulars. His stuff was overpriced too.

Luckily there was a newer place that was much further, but the guys were very helpful, the place in good order, and the prices much more reasonable. I went out of my way to buy my stuff from them. But one month I just wasn't going to be able to get over that way for some time so I decided to use their email order and pay for it to be shipped. I was overcharged for many things and wasn't charged the shipping rate their site claimed. It shows their charge was something like $7.99 on most orders and that if it were more they'd call. That didn't happen.

It took many phone calls to get things mostly straightened out. The owner didn't even know his own prices and still charged me $1 more than it should have. I also went to MoreBeer and only bought the little things like small amounts of grains and LME from them after that.

But now I have a grain mill and just get everything from MoreBeer. I'm a happy customer.

 

[1977Brewer]

Mine went from a "not great oversell" to a "friendly discussions about fermenting arts" in less than a month. I credit my education on this site and my general ability to make people like me.

 

[markvale5]

I have a MoreBeer shop 10 minutes away from me. The shop itself is small but the usually have everything I need and if they don't they can order it for the next week.

 

[ericrichards420]

I think your just being anal about the whole thing. You want a higher gravity through in some more fermentables like honey or sugar. Try moving up to a all grain method like brew in a bag. I wouldn't burn my bridge especially if its in your area.

 

[thaymond]

I feel very fortunate. CBW by me is awesome. Super friendly and helpful staff, reasonable prices, tons of choice and full inventory. It's rare if they don't have something, and it's usually in within a few days. Now it's also an operating brewery and TapRoom. Which makes it even better! Plus it's 10 minutes away. Can't beat it.

In the cases of negligence or demeaning owners, it would be best to move on. Those places most likely won't stay open long because word gets out. This community is still relatively small and there's a lot of networking of brewers through clubs and the like. If a place gets a bad rap, others will find out and soon they'll have no customers. OP you're better off planning ahead and going to the places that are further from the house, as well as purchasing ingredients for self made recipes. As an Ag Brewer, I forgot how much extract costs!

 

[ArizonaGoalie]

I'm going to echo and add to a bunch of comments here.

1) get away from kits. Even with extract, you can be very creative with recipes and HBT is a great place to get them. No matter what kind of brewing you do, it's an art. Put together your own kit.

2) buy what you can online. Extract is heavy, so it's probably more economical at your LHBS, but maybe not. I get everything except grain online (I do all grain brewing now). My LHBS has to make money, I get it, but $5.00 for 1.75oz of hops and $6.00 for 1.75oz of premium hops it outrageous. I buy online. Yes, it's in little baggies and I'm getting shortchanged

3) Your priming sugar issue is not an issue. In fact, when I used to buy kits from one site I removed the priming sugar because I bought it in 4lb bags online.

4) Get yourself a 3lb bag of DME, a 4lb bag or corn sugar, some agave, some honey, brown sugar, cane sugar, and belgian candy sugar on hand. Need to boost your OG - problem solved.

Good luck my friend...happy brewing!

 

[paperairplane]

Yeah, I have 1 store that carries minimal gear, mostly preapackaged kits and a few varieties of hops and yeast.

Entire inventory for the entire store is probably $1500 or less. And that only because he has a fair number of kegs and carboys.

Did I mention only open Friday afternoon and Saturdays...

 

[rodwha]

"You want a higher gravity through in some more fermentables like honey or sugar."

This would certainly solve the problem, but if it states a given gravity and falls way short I wouldn't be happy either, especially paying that much for a light beer. It's one thing to be off a little bit, but to be way off... It should be as advertised.

 

[caver95]

I think you would be doing the owner a favor if you sent an email. However, if he is not a homebrewer and just wants to make a few bucks he should really focus on the quality of service and products they sell. I think I would love to own a homebrew shop. Not sure my area could support any more, and the lbs is awesome.

I might be willing to revisit if he addresses the issue. I also try to give my shop the option of selling to me for online pricing. Sometimes they can make it and others they cant.

Good luck

 

[odonnpj]

I feel your pain, but at least you have options. I have 1 LHBS within an hour or 1.5 hours of me, and it just opened. I was very excited to check it out and have some conversations as I'm very new to brewing. But, it is more of a craft beer store (very impressive selection) that sells a few ingredients and has one or two kits in stock. The employees didn't know anything about brewing which was a huge bummer. I'm hoping they up their game. I might stop by to purchase some basic supplies such as caps, and clean tubing. They didn't even have any sanitizers...alas I'm stuck ordering online and dealing with expensive shipping.

 

[Paps]

BUYER BEWARE.......
A.K.A. take responsibility for your own purchases.
If you "Just barely" made your gravity, to me that means you "made your gravity"
If you want a higher gravity then like previously mentioned stock some extra malt extract or other form of fermentable. Sugar,honey,sorgum syrup,maple syrup,apple juice concentrate,ect,ect.(you can get creative here)
Don't rely on store made kits especially if the "dingbat behind the counter" is known for commonly misreading scales/forgetting items for kits,ect.
If they have been around for 10 years and STILL don't have much of a knowledge of brewing then don't hold your breath on that ever changing.Accept them for what they are and make your purchases based on whether you want their product or not.
Happy brewing.

 

[Pyg]

below is the email response I received.
Not the response I was hoping for, but at least it was a response.

"Thank you Pyg,
I am working on a test batch at my house with*a small amount of
maize to see how this impacts the taste.
Thank you letting me know about this. I am here each weekend so please introduce yourself the next time to are here.
Mike(name changed)"

I responded to his response and reminded him that he has known me for better part of 10 year. I also pointed him toward a few Cream Ale recipes from various sources, most extract, but all using close to 6# of fermentables.
I also pointed him toward Brewtoad to be able to see other recipes, not just the ones he gets in his clone book.

Finally I looked up all the ingredients on the store web site. I put them into a database and calculated what all items would cost separately. (Hops in 2oz packs for $7.50 seem pricey). the total cost came out to be $39.45. The kit was listed as $42.95.

LME 3.3 $13.95
DME 2# $13.00
HP 1oz $3.75
hp .5oz $1.88
hp .5oz $1.88
ySt $4.50
Prime Sugar 4 oz $0.49
Total $39.45

However as stated in my OP I had some "customer appreciation store coupons"
Therefore I ended up getting the beer kit ($42.95) And a small bottle of Star San ($10.95), for $25. So while I may feel cheated by the kit, I guess I made out better than I had thought.

But from Now on, I am buying all my ingredients and I will not leave my brewing up to whom ever fills a box!