LHBS (when your LHBS Stinks and it is time to walk away)

CornyKegs 728
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forget the drama and use some other business or better yet, online. he'll be out of business soon anyway it sounds like and maybe you can get a good deal on his going out of business sale.
 
You may have to make other choices, not as convenient, but better. Ultimately, don't buy a pre-assembled kit from someone you suspect doesn't know how to pre-assemble a kit. You ended up with a lot of hassle and worry (and potentially the success of your 5 gal. of brew) in spite of your "discount". If for now, you do change retailers, I would kindly let your regular one know why, but don't burn that bridge --- they may end up serving you better down the road someday. Maybe sooner than later.

I once bought a kit from my local LHBS assuming everything in it was good. When I got it home, I discovered the yeast was past the BIUB date. That meant a return to the store (25 mi. round trip) to exchange it. Even at that, they didn't have a fresh yeast in that style and I had to order it. No prob, except it set back my brew day a week. Since then, if I bought a kit, I would bring it to the counter and check everything in it right in front of the owner. No problems from then on.
 
I have spent the last few weeks emailing back and forth with the owner.
I tried to get him to understand that the kit was falsely label "American cream style ale", when in fact there were no ingredients that would make It anything along the lines of a cream ale.
I have received nothing but responses indicating he will "add corn to a recipe at home and see if it makes a difference.
The owner does not seem to understand my frustration, and does not seem to want to admit that I was sold something that was falsly labeled.
I have done my best to not directly burn a bridge and declare I will never return to this LHBS, but I guess since he won't get the hint I will just quietly never return .
 
Finally got around to bottling the "cream" ale I was sold.
It smells and tastes like corona more than anything else.

Just another reason to he disappointed with this outing
 
This thread makes me feel better about my LHBS. One of them anyways. The bad one is a "wine and cake" store. Mostly cake supplies and a few kits that look out of the 80s for beer. But they do a groupon once or twice a year. So I'll stop in and get a 1L flask and a few other odds and ends.

After a few extracts check out brew in a bag. With a washed yeast you can do 3 gallons for under $20. Bought the ingredients for $15 today for an ESB.
 
Mike_kever_kombi said:
Why not take your new found knowledge, and make up some recipes, the proper amount of ingredients, and instructions. Type them out and try talking to the owner about implementing some of your recipes in his store.

You stated neither he nor the old lady brew beer, so they probably just don't know any better.

Perhaps you can come to some sort of agreement, and get the in store kits for a discount.

People tend to respond better when they feel they are being helped, and not attacked or threatened, not that that was your intention
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This sounds like the cool thing to do.
 
chawn said:
I have a brew store 5 minutes away from my house. The owner and employees are extract brewers and discourage all grain. When I was considering biab, the owner not only discouraged it, but attempted to demean me. So I now make a 25 minute drive to the next closest LHBS. I didn't confront the owner in any way. I simply moved on.
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Seriously, brewing store owners discourage all grain? That's bananas:ban:
 
Ivypunx said:
Seriously, brewing store owners discourage all grain? That's bananas:ban:
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Agreed. He's an extract only brewer with no knowledge of AG. He does, however, sell some of the equipment; I doubt much gets sold. He's the perfect model on how not to run a LHBS.
 
chawn said:
Agreed. He's an extract only brewer with no knowledge of AG. He does, however, sell some of the equipment; I doubt much gets sold. He's the perfect model on how not to run a LHBS.
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I think that's because he makes more profit from selling extracts than barley malt. He is definitely the perfect model of how not to run an LHBS
 
likwidbliss said:
I wouldn't have even posted. I would frequent a reputable LBHS.
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I posted as a form of therapy since SWMBO doesnt want to hear it.
it is also nice to get feedback on these issues.

This morning I sent the proprietor an email outlining my frustration
1-mislabeled kit
2-his lack of understanding of what a "cream ale" actually is
3-I know have many bottles of beer in a style I neither wanted or may not like
4-I know have to go buy what I actually thought I purchased the first time
5- I will go elsewhere for these purchases

Despite all my prior posts this place is not a seedy hole in the wall. It is a nice place, run by some nice people, albeit not knowledgeable.
They have been in business atleast 10 years, but I think most people buy kits or simple ingredients.
No walks in to trouble shoot or for feedback.

But that is the difference between this place and other places.
There is no discussion or information to be had here, just supplies.
This is seen clearly with the proprietor's response to my concern that the "cream ale" had no flaked corn, " I will bench test that at home to see if it makes a difference".

Simply put I dont know what they could do to make me come back,
so I am moving on!
 
This whole discussion makes me feel fortunate that I have such a great home brew shop a few miles away. He has pretty much everything I've ever needed and he even sells hop rhizomes as well. He's given me some great advice the last two years and is a fountain of knowledge. Everyone should have a LHBS like the one I go to.
 
Randomnoob said:
This whole discussion makes me feel fortunate that I have such a great home brew shop a few miles away. He has pretty much everything I've ever needed and he even sells hop rhizomes as well. He's given me some great advice the last two years and is a fountain of knowledge. Everyone should have a LHBS like the one I go to.
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+1 LHBS is not the best looking but the owners knowledge is great. Sadly he struggles with staff that is knowledgeable and reliable. The current guy is good just needs to stay and learn all the knowledge .
 
Pyg said:
This morning I sent the proprietor an email outlining my frustration
1-mislabeled kit
2-his lack of understanding of what a "cream ale" actually is
3-I know have many bottles of beer in a style I neither wanted or may not like
4-I know have to go buy what I actually thought I purchased the first time
5- I will go elsewhere for these purchases

Despite all my prior posts this place is not a seedy hole in the wall. It is a nice place, run by some nice people, albeit not knowledgeable.
They have been in business atleast 10 years, but I think most people buy kits or simple ingredients.
No walks in to trouble shoot or for feedback.
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The following is the email received to my complain yesterday.
as indicated above, I explained very simply what this LHBS sells as a "cream Ale" is not what BJCP considered to be "cream Ale".
This is the response I received

"Thank your for sharing the review. We have been using this recipe for many years and have not yet recd a similar response.

Again thank you for the details"

I dont know what worries me more, the fact that he refuses to acknowledge that what he is selling is not "cream ale" or that people who buy it think it is !
I guess that was the nail in the coffin, I will move on!
:smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:
 
Just to be certain, the BJCP ingredient suggestions are this:
Ingredients: American ingredients most commonly used. A grain bill of six-row malt, or a combination of six-row and North American two-row, is common. Adjuncts can include up to 20% flaked maize in the mash, and up to 20% glucose or other sugars in the boil. Soft water preferred. Any variety of hops can be used for bittering and finishing.
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They make it abundantly clear that neither corn nor rice are a requirement (they "can [be] included" "up to" a certain percentage); ZERO-20% rice and/or corn. Malt are usually american in nature, but not always. Soft water is suggested but not required. And, any hop can be used.

A cream ale can be made with no corn, no rice, no sugar, no american malts, hard water, and it can still be called a cream ale if the taste fits the category.
 
My closest LHBS is 2 1/2 hour drive up the interstate from me. SOO, I order all my stuff online and I would suggest the same for you. The kits are always consistent and it has forced me to plan ahead to ensure I have everything. I'm an AG guy, and have moved on to building my own recipes, but I know their extract kits are just as consistent. This way you also have more time to relax and plan things out from the comfort of your home. Sorry to hear you've had such a rough go at it as brewing for me is total zen. I would suggest using Midwest supplies, norther brewer, or adventures in homebrewing. All 3 have amazing customer service and quality product.

Best of luck to ya.
 
stpug said:
Just to be certain, the BJCP ingredient suggestions are this:

They make it abundantly clear that neither corn nor rice are a requirement (they "can [be] included" "up to" a certain percentage); ZERO-20% rice and/or corn. Malt are usually american in nature, but not always. Soft water is suggested but not required. And, any hop can be used.

A cream ale can be made with no corn, no rice, no sugar, no american malts, hard water, and it can still be called a cream ale if the taste fits the category.
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BJCP also indicates :
"6A. Cream Ale

Aroma: Faint malt notes. A sweet, corn-like aroma and low levels of DMS are commonly found. Hop aroma low to none. Any variety of hops may be used, but neither hops nor malt dominate. Faint esters may be present in some examples, but are not required. No diacetyl."

This brew had no "sweet, corn-like aroma", if anything it smells like a corona!

Even though a cream ale doesnt have to have corn or rice, I have never had a cream ale or seen a recipe that omitted that ingredient.
If they have just called it an "Ale" I dont think I would have had as much of an issue.

3.3# LME (light)
2# DME (gold)
1oz Cascade (60 min boil)
.5 cascade (15 min boil)
.5 hallertau (15min boil)
Windsor Ale yeast
 
It sounds like you were setting yourself up for disappointment even before this cream ale debacle. You already knew the owner and lady behind the counter didn't know much about brewing. I'm an avid mountain biker and have walked into shops were it was obvious that I was more knowledgable than the staff. Even if it's less convenient, I'd rather go to a trusted shop.

Would you go to a vegetarian butcher?

What are you hoping to accomplish by emailing the owner? If his next reply is "You're right. That recipe was not correct.", will you return and purchase any other recipe with confidence?
 
There's a lot of people running stores out there that either don't know their customers or lack the basic skills to handle situations effectively. My impression of many of the HBSs that I've visited has been it was opened by someone who enjoyed making beer and/or wine but had no experience in retailing, service, merchandising, or customer service.
If this guy really was concerned about saving a customer he would have called you or invited you to arrange to stop by and see him to discuss what would make it right. Anyone who plays the "well nobody else has complained" card is not so one who should be working with customers.
 
That's fine! I'll open my own LHBS! With blackjack! And hookers!.....actually, forget the LHBS!....and the blackjack!

But in all seriousness - I submit another vote for just ordering things online. If you have an emergency and need something but can't wait for shipping, then go to the other LHBS.
 
notyal said:
What are you hoping to accomplish by emailing the owner? If his next reply is "You're right. That recipe was not correct.", will you return and purchase any other recipe with confidence?
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As previously detailed, I was looking to correct what he was selling. You cant have a kit where the instructions indicate a SG of 1.055 or a potential ABV of 5.5% if the ingredients barely get you to an SG of 1.042 or 4.% abv.

I was not looking for a refund and I was not looking more than to correct and error.
When I bought this I did not know any better and know I do. I was hoping to save someone the same experience.
it was his response that he would "try" corn in a "cream ale", when he simply should know this, is what I was trying to correct.

BrewHound said:
There's a lot of people running stores out there that either don't know their customers or lack the basic skills to handle situations effectively. My impression of many of the HBSs that I've visited has been it was opened by someone who enjoyed making beer and/or wine but had no experience in retailing, service, merchandising, or customer service.
If this guy really was concerned about saving a customer he would have called you or invited you to arrange to stop by and see him to discuss what would make it right. Anyone who plays the "well nobody else has complained" card is not so one who should be working with customers.
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This!
 
I wouldn't burn a bridge, you never know when you will need them in a pinch. My LHBS also sells their hops in hop union packages, and you weigh your own grain. I have never bought a pre-packaged kit, or had them fill my order, mainly due to your original post.
 
sboyajian said:
I have the same problem. I'll use the same letters..

I have L and R.

L is about 10 minutes from my house, R is about 30.

L has grains all over the floor. LME is dripping out of barrels onto the floor. They don't close all the buckets of grain at night. I'm pretty sure the owner has 2 cats that roam around in there even when closed. Whenever I go he is out of something. Lactose sugar, specific hops, etc. He is always out of specific hops. Doesn't have certain size buckets or fermenters. He has screwed up charging me in the past and double charged me for items or forgot to put items I have purchased in the bag. He is not a people person. One time when I went in, I bought what I needed for one recipe and when I found out he didn't have what I needed for another, I just asked him if he had a brown ale kit. I got home and found the recipe for an Amber Ale.

R is, as I mentioned, further out. It is also 10-20% more expensive, hell, some things are 40-50% more. However, the shop is immaculate. They always have everything I need plus more. They keep an inventory of about 300% more.

It took me walking into shop R only once to realize I'd never go back to L ever again, unless I was pressed for time and needed something very specific that I knew he would have.
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Based on your location and description I know exactly where "L" is and have a good idea which "R" you are talking about, in a generally eastward direction near a shopping center and brewpup? "L" is recently under new management, waiting to see how that turns out.

I concur, the first time I went to "R" i nearly lost my mind at how clean it was and the ingredient selection and packaging. And while the prices are a little higher, it's still cheaper than paying shipping and I like to be able to put hands on. I have not set foot in "L" since. Luckily one of my sons goes to school near "R" I can sneak an occasional trip in.
 
rldawson said:
Based on your location and description I know exactly where "L" is and have a good idea which "R" you are talking about, in a generally eastward direction near a shopping center and brewpup? "L" is recently under new management, waiting to see how that turns out.

I concur, the first time I went to "R" i nearly lost my mind at how clean it was and the ingredient selection and packaging. And while the prices are a little higher, it's still cheaper than paying shipping and I like to be able to put hands on. I have not set foot in "L" since. Luckily one of my sons goes to school near "R" I can sneak an occasional trip in.
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You are spot on. I believe "L" re-opened today. I'm hoping to get out there maybe this weekend, although my understanding is it will take a little while for inventory to get back up.

I also start a new position on May 1, which has me driving 2 miles past MyLHBS in Falls Church, so I suppose I now have a 3rd option.
 
Darwin18 said:
$42's for a cream ale kit?! Damn extract is expensive...

I have two homebrew stores that are within a reasonable drive to me. I won't go to one because the owner insulted me when I was a new brewer. I basically was asking his staff questions about an off-flavor and he acted like I was wasting their time. I was the only customer in the store and buying merchandise so yeah....

Fortunately there's a much better homebrew store closer to where I work that has way more inventory and great staff. Atlantic homebrew supply in Raleigh - check it out.
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I had a similar experience at one of my semi local ones. Owner was a ******, I take my business somewhere else.
 
Darwin18 said:
$42's for a cream ale kit?! Damn extract is expensive...

.
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:u



So I drank the beer and it was OK. I prefer the other half of the batch which I over dry hopped with Citra.

The unhopped version is a low end , unremarkable beer!



I went to my other LHBS and bought the ingredients for a cream ale (with corn) and bought extra DME to get a ABV of 5.5% and the cost was $31



While the cream ale I bought from the intial LHBS was barely 4.2% and cost me $42



I have had a few more email exchanges from the owner and he has indicated he would listen to tweeks on recipes. However that is not my job to give him recipes, so he can up the price and make a profit.

I have started buying LME & DME and ingredients from other, Cheaper LHBS, so I can store for when I decide to brew!View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1428589756.155125.jpg
 
I'm not sure I would bother with the whole "how to tell him I'm making a stand" bit. Just stop going, give your business to the other places, even if it requires some advance planning.
30.gif
57.gif
 
xvgjvhj said:
I'm not sure I would bother with the whole "how to tell him I'm making a stand" bit. Just stop going, give your business to the other places, even if it requires some advance planning.

+1
If he can't see that the business is wrong then a customer telling him so is unlikely to change anything. He just sounds uninspired and disaffected.
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I can certainly commiserate. I have to travel about 1 hour in a variety of directions to get to various home brew stores.

Store A (45 minutes away) is basically an extract store with really old ingredients. They are sweet, but their hops are at room temperature along with their yeast. Yikes!

Store B (1.5 hours away) on my one and only visit, the manager told me that she wasn't going to interrupt, but then spent the entire time talking about how I was doing everything wrong, Star San is terrible and makes the beer taste weird, BIAB is not really all grain because if you don't sparge like a brewery then it's all fake, extract brewing is way better than all grain and the beers taste the same so why not save time, etc., etc. My shopping experience there was like something out of a terrible sitcom.

Store C (1 hour 15 minutes away) is simply filthy with grains, tape, paint and children's toys all over the floor. The store is not always open when they claim to be, and they like to package their own hops from bulk which I found kind of weird. Only visited this place once.

Store D (1.5 hours away) is outrageously expensive and the staff seem like monks in that they didn't offer any information and just stared at me while I was perusing the shelves. The prices alone made me want to run out of the store screaming.

Store E, (1 hour away), has the best and most varied ingredients and equipment. Their prices aren't shocking, but they aren't cheap either. I visit them about 4-6 times a year. Stores A-D: I just don't see myself returning.
 
sboyajian said:
You are spot on. I believe "L" re-opened today. I'm hoping to get out there maybe this weekend, although my understanding is it will take a little while for inventory to get back up.

I also start a new position on May 1, which has me driving 2 miles past MyLHBS in Falls Church, so I suppose I now have a 3rd option.
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Congrats. So what was your number two, or "R" I guess, then? I was thinking that it was MyLHBS. Is there ANOTHER homebrew store in the area that I have not seen yet???
 
rldawson said:
Congrats. So what was your number two, or "R" I guess, then? I was thinking that it was MyLHBS. Is there ANOTHER homebrew store in the area that I have not seen yet???
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Kettles and Grains up in Leesburg. Beautiful shop. Also has a nice small selection of craft beer.

I've been back to Jay's since it reopened with new owners. They have done a fantastic job getting inventory back up and continue to add more.
 

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