Let's start some controversy....to secondary or not?

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Yooper

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To me, the OP was just looking to stir up some crap. Starting with the thread title "Let's start some controversy", but if starting controversy is within the rules, then that's fine. Then to continue that thread name with a "to secondary or not", which has been used in many previous threads, seemed like a little overkill on the subject.

We're all free to beat a dead horse if we want. I was looking out for HBT's interests, not my own.
Ok, that makes sense to me, and I can see that.

The title of the thread does seem to be "let's start an argument", not "let's have a nice debate on the pros and cons and get some new ideas and opinions".

Even so, we can join the discussion or not. Someone who is trolling (not saying that is the case here) will stop if they don't get a reaction, while someone who is genuinely interested in the subject will find a new way to communicate that. My current pet peeves in this forum are the "cut and paste" answers, the "use the search noob" response, or, worse, the whole "if you would actually pay attention you'd know this was asked four times today already."

Let's all be a bit sensitive to that, remembering that many of new homebrewers might not be forum-savvy. I certainly wasn't, and the only reason I stayed on this forum (after working up the nerve to even post!) was because I was not treated like a stupid person who had the audacity to ask two very basic questions.

Ok, now- let's get back on topic and remember our manners.
 

broadbill

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Ok, that makes sense to me, and I can see that.

The title of the thread does seem to be "let's start an argument", not "let's have a nice debate on the pros and cons and get some new ideas and opinions".

Even so, we can join the discussion or not. Someone who is trolling (not saying that is the case here) will stop if they don't get a reaction, while someone who is genuinely interested in the subject will find a new way to communicate that. My current pet peeves in this forum are the "cut and paste" answers, the "use the search noob" response, or, worse, the whole "if you would actually pay attention you'd know this was asked four times today already."

Let's all be a bit sensitive to that, remembering that many of new homebrewers might not be forum-savvy. I certainly wasn't, and the only reason I stayed on this forum (after working up the nerve to even post!) was because I was not treated like a stupid person who had the audacity to ask two very basic questions.

Ok, now- let's get back on topic and remember our manners.
As the person who posted a ""if you would actually pay attention you'd know this was asked four times today already."-type response....I saw the OP not as an earnest request for advice but someone who wanted to stir the pot a bit. As such, I decided some snark was in order.
 

jwalker1140

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To this point, I've only made four extract batches and this has been my experience....

On batch 1, 3 and 4, my schedule was primary for 1 week, secondary for 2 weeks, bottle condition for 3 weeks. These beers came out clear with minimal sediment in the bottles.

On batch 2, a hefeweizen, I left it in the primary for 2 weeks and bottle conditioned for 3 weeks (in part, because of the comments in HBT). The beer tastes great but there is a tremendous amount of sediment in the bottles that stirs up easily, even after being in bottle for a couple months and spending up to a week in the fridge. I don't mind too much because of the type of beer, but I don't think I'd like this if I had made a non-cloudy style of beer.

This experience caused me to go back to using a secondary, but perhaps I should try again and spend 3-4 weeks in the primary rather than only 2.
 

Revvy

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Funny, the OP didn't have and issue with anyone's answers, in fact he thought the responses in this thread were, in HIS VERY WORDS, "gentle."


All right, all right, I admit I should have searched through the threads first. Sorry, it had been on my mind all night and I had 2 minutes to dig, so I chose starting the thread. Not trying to be a troll :eek:

If it shows anything, it's that the community here is willing to jump in and help, even if it's been asked before. Thanks for being gentle, gentle-men.
I always find it amusing when, even if the original poster doesn't take offense to what is happening IN HIS OWN THREAD, someone else feels the need to be "indignant" for them.

I think most folks were more getting at the point that the OP wanted this thread to be some big controversial debate, when as many have said, it's no longer a debate, or a controversy- it's now seen as a mainstream choice these days.

Some folks thought he was trolling, though I didn't. But the tone did put folks on their guard.

It's not a big scandal like it was oh those many years ago when folks were trolled on here for DARING to believe that autolysis wasn't the rule rather than a rare exception and MAYBE John Palmer might not have been a brewing god, infallable, but may have made a mistake in his belief in that.

Now it is really just a matter of deciding to secondary or not...not that one method is any worse then the other.

Additionally, I truly believe that when folks start a thread, they truly want information. If I ask for some info, and someone points me to where the best info is, I don't feel shut down, I'm thankful. Especially if where I'm being pointed to has what I'm looking for.

Had "people with a lot of experience" just chosen to ignore this thread, the OP would have gotten basically a handful of inexperienced brewers with very little insights, nor would they necessarily been pointed to exactly where on here the answers to what they were looking for.

No-one's really stifling discussion on here. But in honesty if the OP really wants INFORMATION, then, well personally, I would rather be steared in the direction of said info, rather than maybe have a thread where the last 2 or 3 folks on here who haven't answered it a million times do so.

And all the folks most experienced in this topic ignore it, because they feel they've said it all in great detail already......

The information we've already posted doesn't vanish...it's here as long as the internet is. It can be tapped at any time.

And in this case, there's a lot of great info and opinion, in depth in THAT THREAD.


Me, I don't care whether the "opinions" or information is fresh, or not, I just would rather have it be good, and varied. And in reality, it wouldn't be if it were just here in this thread.

Just my two cents.
 

broadbill

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To this point, I've only made four extract batches and this has been my experience....

On batch 1, 3 and 4, my schedule was primary for 1 week, secondary for 2 weeks, bottle condition for 3 weeks. These beers came out clear with minimal sediment in the bottles.

On batch 2, a hefeweizen, I left it in the primary for 2 weeks and bottle conditioned for 3 weeks (in part, because of the comments in HBT). The beer tastes great but there is a tremendous amount of sediment in the bottles and it isn't very compacted, even after a couple months and up to a week in the fridge. I don't mind too much because of the type of beer, but I don't think I'd like this if I were making a non-cloudy style of beer.

This experience caused me to go back to using a secondary, but perhaps I should try again and spend 3-4 weeks in the primary rather than only 2.
Your hefe is cloudy because its a hefe, not because you skipped the secondary.
 

jwalker1140

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Your hefe is cloudy because its a hefe, not because you skipped the secondary.
Yes, but it's appropriately cloudy in the bottle before I stir the quarter- to half-inch layer of clumpy sediment. I've never seen this much sediment in a commercial hefe.

I concede that my issue may be related to something other than my decision to forgo a secondary (as I mentioned, I don't have much experience at this). I am thinking about giving it another try. Would certainly be easier.
 

jbaysurfer

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I'm a newb, and I like to secondary. Clears my beer better..and since I primary in a bucket, secondary in a carboy gives me a chance to see whats happening in the beer a bit better, even if it's not as exciting as watching a beer in primary at high krausen.

BTW, I like NEW ideas too. I appreciate the wealth of information that this site offers, but sometimes the search feature leads you to old threads and more unanswered questions then you had when you started.

I don't know who said it (Mod I think), but the idea that some folks feel like they've made their case already and now new folks aren't bothering to read it has some merit (imho).

There's a reason I have like 4 posts. I end up using the search function on everything, and therefore I miss opportunities to forge relationships...via discussion.

It's no biggie, I have lots of friends, but I bet I'm not the only perpetual lurker. Posting a new thread subjects you to scrutiny, and sometimes ridicule, who wants any part of that?
 

JonK331

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Maybe someone should start a thread called "Don't try to discuss anything because it's already been discussed, use the search function." But, oh wait, this is a forum.
 

Revvy

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I

There's a reason I have like 4 posts. I end up using the search function on everything, and therefore I miss opportunities to forge relationships...via discussion.
But you can discuss in ANY thread, even an old one.

The Jamil/Palmer thread is one of the most active threads on here. At lest three times a day, morning, afternoon and evening when I click "new posts" or "user cp" that thread has new posts in there. It's got almost the same "legs" as the tap room.

That's the magic of this forum software, you can go as far back as the first post on here, quote it, reply to it, and it becomes active again. Someone's going to jump in, even maybe that person who wrote that thing x years ago. And the conversation continues. Nothing dissapears in this forum (unless it is locked by the mods.) The information is here, the opinions are here, and can come back to life anytime.
 

LandoLincoln

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Maybe someone should start a thread called "Don't try to discuss anything because it's already been discussed, use the search function." But, oh wait, this is a forum.
We talked about that topic last week. Do try to keep up.
 

Revvy

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making me laugh.......what the hell is ....secondary?
But actually to someone who has just started brewing in the last year or so, and especially in the next couple years, that's a valid question.

Now that long primary/no secondary has gone "mainstream" where instructions in kits, magazines, podcasts, even recent books, have started to reflect this major shift in brewing culture.

A lot of newer brewers don't necessary know what a secondary is. If all the new discussions, books, and instructions talk about no secondary as if it's nothing new then that will become less of something folks might know about.
 

Revvy

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Maybe someone should start a thread called "Don't try to discuss anything because it's already been discussed, use the search function." But, oh wait, this is a forum.
Funny, for every who complains about this, you also have folks who post things like "I finally feel the need to introduce myself and say thanks, even though I've been on here for a couple years I rarely feel the need to post, because I find everything I need has already been asked and answered. But I just wanted to say thanks from a lurker, for all the great help I've receioved. I'm a better brewer from reading the stuff on here."

We see posts like that on here all the time...

It's just two sides of the same coin.....Some folks can't be bothered to search and want everything spoon fed, others love digging for their info.

Can't make everyone happy, if some folks just don't want to be happy.

*shrug*
 

CGVT

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I don't know, maybe some people would like the interaction and the chance to forge relationships the same as people that have been here for years.

Lurking and searching will get you tons of information on this site and that certainly is appreciated, but forums are usually more than that.

Just a thought...
 

nukinfuts29

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I swear every time Revvy posts an angel gets its wings.

Sent from my Galaxy S 4G using Home Brew Talk for Android
 

Revvy

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I don't know, maybe some people would like the interaction and the chance to forge relationships the same as people that have been here for years.
So you're implying that you can't forge relationships without starting a new thread???

You can bump any thread or join any thread at any time, and start relationships.

I think the tap room proves you wrong. Only one person a long time ago started that thread, and a LOT of relationships have been forged from folks just joining in. Even noobies.
 

JonK331

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I don't know, maybe some people would like the interaction and the chance to forge relationships the same as people that have been here for years.

Lurking and searching will get you tons of information on this site and that certainly is appreciated, but forums are usually more than that.

Just a thought...
Agreed.
 

Revvy

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I swear every time Revvy posts an angel gets its wings.

Sent from my Galaxy S 4G using Home Brew Talk for Android
LOL...


Here's a good example. nukinfuts has only been here since Nov. but he's already become part of the community. He's in the trenches, asking AND answering questions, and interacting with folks on here. It's only been a few weeks but I feel an affinity towards him/her/it.....
 

nukinfuts29

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LOL...


Here's a good example. nukinfuts has only been here since Nov. but he's already become part of the community. He's in the trenches, asking AND answering questions, and interacting with folks on here. It's only been a few weeks but I feel an affinity towards him/her/it.....
LMAO

I'm one of those long time lurkers. Been here around a year, learned to make beer last year and signed up this year looking up the whole wine scene. I'm a perfect example of finding everything you need through search.

I have a custom search in my browser (chrome). I just type "hbt" and hit space and it automatically searches anything after that through this website. I took the time to set that up (30 seconds?) because the search tool here is so powerful. I bet I use it 20 times a day.
 

Dan

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I had a conversation my minister recently and told him about the HBT forum. I explained we are all brought together sort of by a common bond and he found it interesting that it's not just about brewing beer, but just about everything gets discussed here from the birth of a baby to the loss of a pet, numerous DIY projects, food recipes, sharing information, building relationships, a lot of good humor and support to each other. His comment "sounds like church"
 

SenorPepe

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LMAO

I'm one of those long time lurkers. Been here around a year, learned to make beer last year and signed up this year looking up the whole wine scene. I'm a perfect example of finding everything you need through search.

I have a custom search in my browser (chrome). I just type "hbt" and hit space and it automatically searches anything after that through this website. I took the time to set that up (30 seconds?) because the search tool here is so powerful. I bet I use it 20 times a day.
Hey, neato. I didn't know you could change the keyword. I'm shocked I actually learned something in this thread.
 

jbaysurfer

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Whether somebody tries to jump into the community by resurrecting an old thread or posting a new, redundant one seems arbitrary to me. However they want to do it is fine.

I'm a splitboarder. Go to Splitboard.com to see my posts/for an explanation, but this whole thing reminds me of the "softboots vs. hardboots" debate that goes on incessantly over there. That one is played out too, but constantly resurrected. I don't have a strong opinion either way, I just tried em both and settled on the one I preferred.

But much respect to you Revvy. I'm not going to crown the arbiter of angels wings, but in all my lurking I have indeed learned a lot from you, and I understand that a thread like this can frustrate you when you want to contribute but feel you've already put enough time and energy into the subject in a previous thread. Cheers and goodwill. This is like my 3rd post today so I guess I'm only a couple days away from rivalling your post count ;-)
 

maffewl

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The OP wanted controversy... and you guys discuss new friendships.

Bring it in everybody... Group hug.
 

Airborneguy

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I had a conversation my minister recently and told him about the HBT forum. I explained we are all brought together sort of by a common bond and he found it interesting that it's not just about brewing beer, but just about everything gets discussed here from the birth of a baby to the loss of a pet, numerous DIY projects, food recipes, sharing information, building relationships, a lot of good humor and support to each other. His comment "sounds like church"
It's the whole bar atmosphere. Based on the subject matter, it's safe to say that most of us are familiar with the bar scene in one form or another. That congenial social setting naturally carried over to the forum because its a common aspect of the people who tend to be drawn to this hobby.
 

Revvy

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But much respect to you Revvy. I'm not going to crown the arbiter of angels wings, but in all my lurking I have indeed learned a lot from you, and I understand that a thread like this can frustrate you when you want to contribute but feel you've already put enough time and energy into the subject in a previous thread. Cheers and goodwill. This is like my 3rd post today so I guess I'm only a couple days away from rivalling your post count ;-)
I don't get frustrated. It's the internet. I just point people in the right direction. That's all I did in my original post. And pointed out that it's played out, not from frustration, but so if he got NO responses, he'd know why.

I've been the first poster in a thread like this, after the op, pointing him to the Jamil thread. The Op's thanked me for the info, and gone on and contributed to THAT thread, and the original thread he started just ends up dying. Happens on here daily.

You just don't maybe realize. I'm sure half the folks in that thread are directed to it by me, with the exact same post, or similar to what I posted above.

*shrug*
 

mikeysab

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I think the issue with this subject of secondary or not is that there's not one right or wrong way to do it. It's not like saying "To use water to make beer or not". You could get clear beer with a long primary, or using a secondary. I did a 7 day primary of BM's centennial blonde, bottled it, and it was crystal clear. There's a lot of factors that go into determining how to make beer clear, not just primary or secondary. Just like there's more than one way to condition beer. There's no solid, definitive answer, there are a bunch.

Some of these threads become confusing after awhile, especially when there's 25 threads about the same topic. Everyone has a way of doing things, and that way might not work for everyone. I have a way of making beer that works great for me. I'm not saying my way is the best way, or the right way,but it works for me, and my setup right now is turning out some decent brews that keep getting better. Someone else might watch me make beer and say "Why did you do that, or why didn't you do that this way?" When these threads go on and on, and get started all over every other day, it gets confusing. Someone could read a whole thread and get 10 opinions on how to do something. Then read another thread on the same subject and get another 10 ways to do something. It's up to us to pick out the information that will work for us.

a lot of peoples issue is that they're too lazy to put in a little work to get their information, or they just don't know how the forum format works. I was guilty of it on my very first batch. I panicked about something and before searching out the information, I posted a question. This is the first forum I've participated in for anything, so I had no idea there were different sections or a search feature. Some people do know, but want there answer NOW, without sifting through 100 pages of information.

As far as secondary or not, I don't secondary unless I'm adding some type of flavoring like fruit or chocolate or oak. I normally do 4 weeks primary, then bottle till carbed and drink up. I use whirfloc in the kettle, and with that stuff, you can actually watch all the break material just fall out during whirlpooling. It's pretty fun to watch in my better bottle.
 

jbaysurfer

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I don't get frustrated. It's the internet. I just point people in the right direction. That's all I did in my original post. And pointed out that it's played out, not from frustration, but so if he got NO responses, he'd know why.

I've been the first poster in a thread like this, after the op, pointing him to the Jamil thread. The Op's thanked me for the info, and gone on and contributed to THAT thread, and the original thread he started just ends up dying. Happens on here daily.

You just don't maybe realize. I'm sure half the folks in that thread are directed to it by me, with the exact same post, or similar to what I posted above.

*shrug*
I was trying to walk a mile in your shoes. Reading it from this end seemed like frustration, at the very least it was hard to construe as friendly redirection. Thanks for setting me straight...I guess.

*shrug*
 

BrewKnurd

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I was trying to walk a mile in your shoes. Reading it from this end seemed like frustration, at the very least it was hard to construe as friendly redirection. Thanks for setting me straight...I guess.

*shrug*
I think it might be things like "You haven't noticed a plethora of threads talking about this already?????" that make it hard to interpret as simply a friendly redirection.

:D

Oh, and I guess I'll *shrug* as well.
 

bvdubn

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Revvy said:
Funny, for every who complains about this, you also have folks who post things like "I finally feel the need to introduce myself and say thanks, even though I've been on here for a couple years I rarely feel the need to post, because I find everything I need has already been asked and answered. But I just wanted to say thanks from a lurker, for all the great help I've receioved. I'm a better brewer from reading the stuff on here."

We see posts like that on here all the time...

It's just two sides of the same coin.....Some folks can't be bothered to search and want everything spoon fed, others love digging for their info.

Can't make everyone happy, if some folks just don't want to be happy.

*shrug*
This is so true! I read the forums almost everyday and rarely post. This forum has helped me immensely throughout the last two years and I appreciate all of the experienced members for the wealth of knowledge they bring to the forum.

Thanks again!
 

BrewKnurd

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I just got into tertiarying, do I need new equpiment now?
Personally, I do my quaternary in the same carboy that I do my secondary in! Since you racked out of the secondary for the tertiary, that carboy is ready again for quaternary!
 
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