Temperature of the Secondary Fermentation?

[FloppyKnockers]

i don’t have a keg!

Just my $0.02, but if you're going to rack it, why not rack it into a keg (assuming you keg) and forgo secondary. Otherwise, you can leave it in primary and let it ride. If we're only talking a 5° increase, I don't see that doing any harm. Especially not with US-04.

Odd that that's the only part you picked up on.

 

[Bilbo24]

I'm glad to see you decided to let it in the primary fermenter. Good decision. The only thing you would do by moving it is add oxygen and potentially ruin the beer.

Keep in mind that the time where the fermentation temperature is most critical is during the active fermentation. Once it has slowed to where you are now, I would hesitate to say it's completely unimportant, but in my experience it almost is so. The dangerous time is during the active fermentation, and most especially before the fermentation actively begins.

I will add a caveat to that which is strictly my own opinion. Anecdotally, I find that pitch temp is extremely important if I pitch a massive amount of yeast. I do that often, and especially with big beers, by pitching trub saved from other finished beers. In those cases, a large amount of yeast is going to get a super head start and if the temperature is too high, you may as well dump the beer right now on the spot. In my opinion though, if there's going to be some lag time you can pitch a few degrees warm as long as you're headed toward the proper fermentation temperature. I'm sure some here will disagree with that, do with the info what you will.

The part that really matters is that if the yeast is allowed to take off and go Full Throttle at a temperature higher than you are targeting for the fermentation temperature, you absolutely will have off compounds. There will be bad flavors in the beer, not even a small question. Doesn't mean it's completely ruined, but if it isn't, it missed a good chance to be. If the yeast is warm during the reproductive phase of the fermentation, get ready for problems. If it remains too warm during the active phase, same thing. Once it gets to where you are now, many beers are actually intentionally warmed up to help finish the fermentation. The yeast both cleans up some of the compounds that were produced and eats the last bit of the sugar that's fermentable.

I wouldn't recommend intentionally taking it to 75 or 80 but I really don't think it would be detrimental if it were to happen. About the only thing I would really recommend avoiding is exposure to sunlight, whether it be direct or indirect. The darker the better.

4Mesh.. thank you for your thoughts on this. If I might, I’d like to lay out what I did with a replay of the temps along the way and ask you if I messed up too much. As you may have read earlier, I have a wifi thermometer attached to the side of the primary fermenter so I have a time line of temps from start to right now.
I cooled the wort with a chiller and pitched two packets of dry S-04 yeast directly into the wort when it reached 72 degreesF. I immediately put a cork in with an airlock and carried it to the basement. The basement temps are cooler than the living area. This was April 30, a Sunday at 1530 in the afternoon . By 8 am on Monday morning it read 68.2. (I think it had started to ferment some and that explains the slow temperature drop). I have another wifi thermometer in the basement and it read about 4 degrees cooler than the beer at 8am also. From 8 am the temperature inside the fermenter grew steadily and reached its highest of 70.9!at 1936 Monday evening April 1st and then steadily decreased its heat bloom until about 1900 on Wednesday the 3rd when it settled to a flat line of 64.6 F. Great krausen head and significant bubbling!!!
It stayed at that temp, give or take a couple of degrees until now, May 10th. The highest it reached after the finish of what I call the temperature bloom was 65 and the lowest was 63.3. That was with me opening and closing the one AC vent we have in the basement and trying to keep it between 62-65 degrees. I tried to keep track of the bubbling but lost that battle . I remember that it was actively bubbling once about every 20 seconds or so on May 8th and had virtually stopped bubbling yesterday May 9th in the evening. The 14th will be 2 weeks in the primary and since I’ve decided not to move it to secondary, I plan to keep it in primary for two more weeks (May 27th ) at which time I plan to bottle.
How does that fit with everything you said about temperatures? Again, thanks for your help!!! The pic below shows my temp graph. When I taped the wifi thermometer on the side of the vessel it first read 80 degrees because I had kept the unit in a drawer on the porch. As I said, I pitched the wort at 72 and then took primary and thermometer to the basement at 1530!

 

[Bilbo24]

Odd that that's the only part you picked up on.

FloppyKnockers, I didn’t mean to slight you in the least!!! I was just acknowledging that I don’t keg. I should have said that after what you said about keeping it in the primary and the differences in temp, etc, that i agree with you 100 percent!! Again, I do appreciate everyone’s thoughts and suggestions!!! Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Point being: if one is relying on other information from Fermentis, they may have gathered that information while fermenting at 68 rather than 78.

Looks like Lallemand has a similar process (fermentation studies at 20C/68F. For example, see "Best Practices: IPA Solutions" (direct link to PDF or link in Verdant landing page).

Feel free to ferment at 78F. Feel free to expect the flavor profiles they mention. But please be aware of how they collected that information.

 

[user 338926]

4Mesh.. thank you for your thoughts on this. If I might, I’d like to lay out what I did with a replay of the temps along the way and ask you if I messed up too much.

No, you didn't.

As you may have read earlier, I have a wifi thermometer attached to the side of the primary fermenter so I have a time line of temps from start to right now.
I cooled the wort with a chiller and pitched two packets of dry S-04 yeast directly into the wort when it reached 72 degreesF.

I've seen info suggesting re-hydrating US-04 in plain water offers a much more viable yeast pitch. Even seen it suggested it's 2x. I don't know that to be true, and Fermentis doesn't say that on their page for it, nor on the packet. But they do mention rehydraton in water or wort for 15-30 min. In my experience with it, I didn't take notice to any significant difference, but I also don't use this yeast in higher gravity beers.

The greater the amount of yeast you pitch, the less of a reproductive phase your wort will experience. I've seen commercial brewers say it's virtually impossible to overpitch to a detriment. That's been my experience also.

Keep in mind, folks say the center of the beer is warmer than the exterior during active fermentation. I have never tested it. In vessels the size I use (5/10G) maybe it's less. Perhaps one day I'll see for sure. I've seen reports of 3-4 deg F. But I do not know how large the diameter needs to be to have that big a difference. Maybe in 5-10G it's 0.01F.

I immediately put a cork in with an airlock and carried it to the basement. The basement temps are cooler than the living area. This was April 30, a Sunday at 1530 in the afternoon . By 8 am on Monday morning it read 68.2. (I think it had started to ferment some and that explains the slow temperature drop). I have another wifi thermometer in the basement and it read about 4 degrees cooler than the beer at 8am also. From 8 am the temperature inside the fermenter grew steadily and reached its highest of 70.9!at 1936 Monday evening April 1st and then steadily decreased its heat bloom until about 1900 on Wednesday the 3rd when it settled to a flat line of 64.6 F. Great krausen head and significant bubbling!!!

There's definitely going to be a temp shift from ambient to beer in the first days. I just had a porter that maintained 6-8 deg F above ambient in a plastic fermenter for 2 days. Thankfully ambient was 52-55. I pitched a LOT of yeast in that. I also injected pure oxygen for 45 seconds, so it really got a head start. For reference, I believe Sierra Nevada uses 1200# of yeast in a 24K gallon (edit) 1000# of yeast in a 12K gallon batch of Bigfoot. Let those numbers sink in.

By day 3 I always expect it to be very near ambient. 1 or 2 days later I generally let it warm up, of force it to, and let it finish that way. Then cold crash IF I'm going to CC but I don't always. When you watch videos of commercial brewers talking about their processes, some stuff applies to us and others doesn't. But, generally their temp controls, while done way differently than ours, are applicable to our small batches.

It stayed at that temp, give or take a couple of degrees until now, May 10th. The highest it reached after the finish of what I call the temperature bloom was 65 and the lowest was 63.3. That was with me opening and closing the one AC vent we have in the basement and trying to keep it between 62-65 degrees. I tried to keep track of the bubbling but lost that battle . I remember that it was actively bubbling once about every 20 seconds or so on May 8th and had virtually stopped bubbling yesterday May 9th in the evening. The 14th will be 2 weeks in the primary and since I’ve decided not to move it to secondary, I plan to keep it in primary for two more weeks (May 27th ) at which time I plan to bottle.

When it gets to even "once ever 5 seconds" I am done worrying about temp control.

How does that fit with everything you said about temperatures? Again, thanks for your help!!! The pic below shows my temp graph. When I taped the wifi thermometer on the side of the vessel it first read 80 degrees because I had kept the unit in a drawer on the porch. As I said, I pitched the wort at 72 and then took primary and thermometer to the basement at 1530!

It should be a great beer. My stout that is 1/2 on tap now, had a spike about exactly the same temp as yours. Mine was MoreBeer's Sweet Stout kit. Initially, I would have said 'too sweet', but fully knowing it would mellow and finish up, even in a keg in the kegerator. I tried a sip of it this morning, and it's really coming around. Another few weeks, perhaps months, and it will probably fit the 5* reviews it has many of. The initial off flavors it had are going away.

It's not uncommon for people to leave Stouts sit for months. Even porters for that matter. After bottling, I'd set some away and save them as a taste test 6 months to a year after, and just take notes of your opinions with the dates on which you try those bottles. Provided there's good bottling technique and the beer isn't oxidized, you'll see a huge change in character as time goes by.

Most likely, you'll like the last bottle, best.

 

[user 338926]

But please be aware of how they collected that information.

I think what he means here is partly, they used wort at 12 deg P. Your stout was quite a bit higher than that. Adjust expectations accordingly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Bilbo24: nice writeup in #32. @4Mesh: nice response in #35.

But please be aware of how they collected that information.

I think what he means here is partly, they used wort at 12 deg P.

+1. Wort P/SG is also a consideration.