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Lets Do This - 20 Gallon Concord 3 Vessel HERMS

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Another question, where are you guys sourcing 30A Spa panels? All i can seem to find at the big box stores are 50A ones? Or are you guys doing 30A just using 50A breakers or just forgoing the spa panel all together and using 30A GFCI breakers from the box?

I had one electrician come out and give me what i consider a ridiculous bid of $873, granted i am having them run the cable up and over my garage ceiling to the other side of the garage but still...

Also found out i need a permit to get the work done, whether I do it myself or not its about $60 just to install a new circuit and get it inspected.
 
Another question, where are you guys sourcing 30A Spa panels? All i can seem to find at the big box stores are 50A ones? Or are you guys doing 30A just using 50A breakers or just forgoing the spa panel all together and using 30A GFCI breakers from the box?

I had one electrician come out and give me what i consider a ridiculous bid of $873, granted i am having them run the cable up and over my garage ceiling to the other side of the garage but still...

Also found out i need a permit to get the work done, whether I do it myself or not its about $60 just to install a new circuit and get it inspected.
That sounds about right for new 220v service. I had quotes upwards of $2k (one was $2400) for new 220 service, 3' trench from garage, sub panel, 110v service (two breakers, one dedicated for a chest freezer) and other crap. I ended up paying $1100 through a guy I met at a beer shop.

Your setup looks fantastic. I regret how long I've taken to do mine, but I am happy it's coming along. Yours is so clean.
 
Another question, where are you guys sourcing 30A Spa panels? All i can seem to find at the big box stores are 50A ones? Or are you guys doing 30A just using 50A breakers or just forgoing the spa panel all together and using 30A GFCI breakers from the box?

I had one electrician come out and give me what i consider a ridiculous bid of $873, granted i am having them run the cable up and over my garage ceiling to the other side of the garage but still...

Also found out i need a permit to get the work done, whether I do it myself or not its about $60 just to install a new circuit and get it inspected.

$873!! Is he putting in new drywall and a floor drain too? :)

I just used a 30A breaker in my main panel and then a 50A spa panel between the main and my control panel. The 30A in the main will trip if you pull to much and the GFCI in the spa panel will do its job. This way when/if you bump the control panel up to 50A you can just swap out the breaker in your main panel.
 
$873!! Is he putting in new drywall and a floor drain too? :)

I just used a 30A breaker in my main panel and then a 50A spa panel between the main and my control panel. The 30A in the main will trip if you pull to much and the GFCI in the spa panel will do its job. This way when/if you bump the control panel up to 50A you can just swap out the breaker in your main panel.

Thats what i wanted to figure out, after permits and spa panel + 30a breaker i figure im at $130 or so according to my calcs. Add in another what..$100 for conduit, like 20-25' 8/4 wire, and another box for the outlet? That puts him at like $650 in labor which just seems ridiculous for such a small job...getting another one out to look as well soon.

I can understand if hes digging a trench that takes time like what Hello had, but hes literally just running wires from point A to point B...i cant see it taking a professional more than maybe 2-3 hours...hell i think even i could do it in 3 even second guessing and triple checking my work that would just be second nature to him...and at this point depending on what the other guy quotes me at I may just go that route.
 
Thats what i wanted to figure out, after permits and spa panel + 30a breaker i figure im at $130 or so according to my calcs. Add in another what..$100 for conduit, some 8/4 wire, and another box for the outlet? That puts him at like $650 in labor which just seems ridiculous for such a small job...getting another one out to look as well soon.

I can understand if hes digging a trench that takes time like what Hello had, but hes literally just running wires from point A to point B...i cant see it taking a professional more than maybe 2-3 hours...hell i think even i could do it in 3 even second guessing and triple checking my work that would just be second nature to him...and at this point depending on what the other guy quotes me at I may just go that route.

I would go with 6 gauge wire, just so that you are ready if you do want to move to 50A. That is what i did, only need to run it once that way. I think my spa panel was $60 at HD, conduit isn't that expensive so you are probably right with $100 there, add another $30-40 for the 30A breaker and $100 or so for the wire (not sure how far your run is.) Labor is expensive, but that still seams high to me.

Can you mount the conduit and run the wire and just have him connect and verify it all?
 
I would go with 6 gauge wire, just so that you are ready if you do want to move to 50A. That is what i did, only need to run it once that way. I think my spa panel was $60 at HD, conduit isn't that expensive so you are probably right with $100 there, add another $30-40 for the 30A breaker and $100 or so for the wire (not sure how far your run is.) Labor is expensive, but that still seams high to me.

Can you mount the conduit and run the wire and just have him connect and verify it all?

Would something like this not work?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-30-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-BR-Circuit-Breaker-BR230/100114666

I need to verify that i have BR breakers but from my quick research most Thomas & Betts are...all of the electricians that came out seemed to get worried it would be hard to find Thomas & Bett's breakers, but from everything ive read they just got bought out repeatedly and now are basically just Eaton..even Eatons product sheets state they work in Thomas & Bett's breakers..i cant help but wonder if he quoted me so high because hes buying some obscure Thomas & Bett's breaker that isnt even made anymore for $100 or something.
 
Would something like this not work?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-30-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-BR-Circuit-Breaker-BR230/100114666

I need to verify that i have BR breakers but from my quick research most Thomas & Betts are...all of the electricians that came out seemed to get worried it would be hard to find Thomas & Bett's breakers, but from everything ive read they just got bought out repeatedly and now are basically just Eaton..even Eatons product sheets state they work in Thomas & Bett's breakers..i cant help but wonder if he quoted me so high because hes buying some obscure Thomas & Bett's breaker that isnt even made anymore for $100 or something.

Sorry, i am not a licensed electrician and maybe someone with a bit more experience in that arena could help you with the breaker. I was just guessing with the $ estimate on a breaker, but that is what i put in my main panel just a 30A double pole breaker.
 
I believe you can do the work yourself and just have it inspected.

http://www.permitsprotect.info/electrical.html

Not sure what the cost difference would be. I will say that electrician is on my short list of careers I'd consider switching to if I wanted to switch careers. It's not that difficult if you learn how to do it right, and you can charge a good amount for your time. :)
 
I believe you can do the work yourself and just have it inspected.

http://www.permitsprotect.info/electrical.html

Not sure what the cost difference would be. I will say that electrician is on my short list of careers I'd consider switching to if I wanted to switch careers. It's not that difficult if you learn how to do it right, and you can charge a good amount for your time. :)


Thats probably the route im going down but want to have the other guy come out and give me a quote, if its only like $100-150 difference or something between a DIY i will just hire them so i dont have to deal with it and the possibility of a failed inspection and having to pay more money to fix any issues and bring them back out again.
 
I put in a 50A outlet in my garage. My panel is on the back "right" wall, and I put the outlet on the front "left" wall. Ran 50ft of 6/3. IIRC the cable was $145. The PVC conduit (drop from ceiling), outlet, enclosure, cover, staples, etc. were probably $45. The 50A GFCI outlet was a whopper at $150. So, materials alone were ~$350. Definitely busted my hump sweating bullets and squeezing through tight spaces in the attic, so $500 for labor doesn't seem that unreasonable for a few hours of work.

Wondering BTW why contractor's work needs be inspected but a neurosurgeon's doesn't? CraZy!

-BD
 
I put in a 50A outlet in my garage. My panel is on the back "right" wall, and I put the outlet on the front "left" wall. Ran 50ft of 6/3. IIRC the cable was $145. The PVC conduit (drop from ceiling), outlet, enclosure, cover, staples, etc. were probably $45. The 50A GFCI outlet was a whopper at $150. So, materials alone were ~$350. Definitely busted my hump sweating bullets and squeezing through tight spaces in the attic, so $500 for labor doesn't seem that unreasonable for a few hours of work.

Wondering BTW why contractor's work needs be inspected but a neurosurgeon's doesn't? CraZy!

-BD

Yea, but mines external conduit because there is a finished bedroom above the garage, so its literally screwing some U clamps every few feet to keep it suspended on the ceiling :)

Anyways back to the brewing, i decided to go with the silicon O-Ring route to seal my compression fittings for the herms coil, something about using the metal ones that clamp down and possibly partially collapse the tube scare me a bit, ok alot...that damn thing isnt cheap...the double O-Rings i use on my other compression fittings seem to work great. Problem is no one here sells it so i had to make a damn stupid order to Brewershardware for a bunch of them...$4 to ship me $6 of tiny O-Rings..oh well now i have 15 which should last me a life time.
 
Wondering BTW why contractor's work needs be inspected but a neurosurgeon's doesn't? CraZy!

Because when a neurosurgeon crosses a wire, your body either heals itself or dies. It doesn't burn down 2 months later. :)
 
So while i wait for more quotes on my spa panel i decided to put together some cables, except somehow in my dirty ass car i lost the heat shrink so i cant finish them. The search continues tom tomorrow, then ill just buy more at the shop if necessary for a dollar.

They will be about 9.5' total each which should be more than enough, i wanted them to be 10' but the damn people who cut my cable cover stuff cut it short it seems, of course i dont realize this until i get home and put it on...oh well it should work fine. Only went with the cable shield thing because a local shop near me sells every cable known to man and also sells this stuff so i think i paid like $3 for 2 10' sections. Sometimes its the little things :)

2015-08-26%2023.47.33.jpg
 
I swear im not mentally handicapped, but i spent a good 45 minutes trying to wire up my heating element wondering why it was so hard to get the wires around the posts, especially the grounding post of the HotPod element enclosure...only to realize i was supposed to be using my crimped on ring terminals...once i did that it was pretty easy. The whole time i was making small loops with the cable and then screwing down on that...oops!

The only thing i am not sure about is that the ring terminals are a bit bent because if the ring terminals come straight out of the element to the side, you cant screw the rear part of the hotpod back onto the element i found out. They are super snug and wont be getting tugged on due to the cable guard of the hotpod so I am not that worried about the connection. Once i had this realization i put the cable together in about 15 minutes.

Hoping i have 2 more quotes for my outlet here soon, i called a 4th company that i think understood what i was doing better. I swear as soon as i mention a spa panel in the garage they all are confused as **** and want to know what i am using it for, they all ask if im installing a hot tub in my garage...after i explain they understand to varying degree's. In the end i tell them "All i want is a 50A 4 Prong Dryer outlet installed in my garage on a wall directly across the garage from my breaker through conduit, how you do it whether its a 50A spa panel, or a 50A spa panel you harvest a breaker from to install in my main panel, or just find a good deal on a 50A GFCI breaker for my main panel i dont care, whatevers cheapest" For some reason this confuses them..i dont understand what I am saying thats so confusing.
 
If you call it a "50A Sub Panel" with internal GFCI rather than a Spa Panel they'll give you much less hassle
 
Well, second quote came in that i think had a pretty good idea of the job...1,450..what the **** how? Ugh now im worried the guy who quoted 850 doesnt even realize its through conduit and maybe thats why he was low?

Im not crazy thinking that both of these prices are crazy? I can see the 850 POSSIBLY but thats still on the high end when a 10' thing of 3/4" conduit is like 2.50 an a few of the gentle bed corner pieces are like $1.50 each. Spa panel is $60, main breaker is $10, like 30' of 6/3 cable is like $60, box and plug are like what maybe $30? Ugh i want to just do this myself but im worried i wont do it to code and ill end up spending $200 and having to gut it and call in a professional anyways...

I mean i have a pretty good grasp of the rules, bend radius's , how big the conduit needs to be for 6-3 cable, etc but I just know ill get dinged for small stupid things like "The spa panel cant be within 12 inches of your main breaker panel" or some other obscure rule i'd never know.

What i thought was going to be the easiest part of this entire build process is turning out to be the most frustrating.
 
Well, second quote came in that i think had a pretty good idea of the job...1,450..what the **** how? Ugh now im worried the guy who quoted 850 doesnt even realize its through conduit and maybe thats why he was low?
DANG, I had a brand new Top of the line 60 circuit Eaton Breaker Panel WITH LIFETIME BREAKERS and whole house surge protection installed (Including a 50A GFCI wired for my brewing) for $1250... junked the old 16/32 panel that was maxed out, now I've got plenty of room for expansion

Check angieslist see if there's some deals on there, that's where I got my guys from... they were originally offering panel labelling + whole house protection for like $80 or so... one I told them no need to label the panel, they jumped at the chance of upgrading me
 
I'd put an ad up on Craigslist and see if any freelancers with certification want to walk you through it and sign it off in exchange for a keg of their favorite style.
 
I'd put an ad up on Craigslist and see if any freelancers with certification want to walk you through it and sign it off in exchange for a keg of their favorite style.

I remembered my cousin I dont see often is an electrician about 3 hours away, too far to come and help but atleast he might be able to step me through some of it? We'll see.:mug:
 
On a non brewing related story, im pretty sure i avoided getting robbed and or murdered in a craigslist deal today. Showed up at some shady looking house with its roof caving in near the chimney in the "wrong part of town" to buy a running stroller for the misses and baby and this haggard old lady in her 70's or 80's with hair up and in a night gown smoking(think mother of serial killer in horror movies) comes out to meet me outside. I ask if this is where the stroller is because i was expecting some 30-40 something, and she said yes...then she tells me the owner dude is in the back and i should go around the side of the house to go see him, and makes some random comment about how she likes my car(its a 09 outback? I mean its a great car but no one tells me hey nice car, its Oregon every 3rd car is a Subaru outback.) Immediately my NOPE NOPE NOPE sense goes off and tell her to go get him and bring him out front(in public i was thinking). 30 seconds later she comes out and tells me hes on the phone with the police now because the stroller was stolen, all i could think was uh huh sure it was...20 minutes ago he told me where to meet him without even checking if the stupid stroller was there? She asked if i wanted to wait while he talked to the cops on the phone, i said sure and she went back to see him and i NOPED the hell out of there in my car before some crackhead with a gun came out front, all i could envision in my head was some dude with a laser scope peeking at me through their blacked out(newspaper) windows. In hindsight, the stroller was probably stolen in the first place if it ever existed, i cant see someone living in that house with a $400 running stroller selling it for as cheap as they were. Ah the joys of Portland...

Now onto the brewing questions...both cables made yay...
2015-08-28%2023.37.50.jpg


Now about wiring those cables...as i understand it, which hot goes to which element post doesnt matter, does that mean that it doesnt matter which goes where on the plug side too?

Also i ran a multimeter continuity test on it and came up with some confusing results, both cables are the same so i am guessing its right? But would like some validation.

Hot 1 - Hot 2 - BEEP
Hot 1 - Ground - Silent
Hot 2 - Ground - Silent
Ground - Element - BEEP
Ground - Enclosure - BEEP

Both of the continuity checks that beeped confused me a bit, why are the HOT1 and HOT2 lines both together? I guess it makes sense sort of? But i was confused why the element itself beeped when checked against ground.

Here is my mock layout of my panel, as you can see it is quite cramped and will make cable routing a giant ******.
Panel1.png


The small metal box on the bottom left is a 120V->5V power supply i am going to use to power the RPI since this is a StrangeBrew Build and i'd like to prevent needing to wire in a whole 120V outlet to power it, i want it to turn the RPI on when i power the main panel switch on. Far bottom right is a white breadboard i will use to wire up for the DS18B20's with the resistor needed and what not coming in from the XLR connectors. Top 3 are 2P 120V coil 40A contactors from Packard I found for a good price on Amazon, one will control main power, and the other 2 will control an element each(pretty standard?). And finally the board in the bottom right is my standard Sainsmart dual relay board im familiar with from my BrewPi build to power my Pump outlets.

I cant decide if i just want to do Wifi on the RPI(i have a USB wifi dongle it came with) or if i want to do ethernet hard wire. I'd rather do wireless if it will work reliably, but am trying to position the RPI in such a way i could get a ethernet cable in and wire it to a jack on the side of the panel if necessary.

PS - Its taking all of my willpower to not freak out about the small scatches im putting on my used stainless table as i move my pots around. I realize its just a fact of life but the side of me that wants it pristine looking screams every time i see it.
 
Another thing I thought of, do people who use stainless tables still use cork board under their pots? I was wondering if the stainless table steals a lot of heat from the pot slowing temp changes?
 
I don't want to give wrong advice but I think the element posts should show continuity (beep) between each other because it's just a big resistor. It doesn't matter which pole goes to which terminal on the element, they're basically +120v and - 120v and it's AC.
 
I don't want to give wrong advice but I think the element posts should show continuity (beep) between each other because it's just a big resistor. It doesn't matter which pole goes to which terminal on the element, they're basically +120v and - 120v and it's AC.


Correct. And you don't want either hot line to beep to ground because that's means you basically have a short. If the continuity test was done correct and the results are accurate then the wiring is correct.
 
Agree with joe's advice. I would put some type of thermal insulator underneath the pots. The table will be a large heat sink.

-BD

So just to clarify, the element itself(not the posts) should also beep when checking against ground?
 
Got the pots mostly plumbed up, turns out im one camlock short so ill have to goto the LHBS tommorrow. Hopefully tomorrow ill also do fill test's and finish calibrating my sight glasses and putting the vinyl stickers on them, then i need to drill the tiny holes for the upper hooks to hold the sight glasses in place. You can see the DS18B20 temp probes dangling out of the compression fitting...i had to cut the shrink wrap they put on them way back because it wouldnt fit through the compression otherwise. Also need to track down some isopropyl alcohol or something to get off the sharpie i used on my pots for the welder :) Im a little concerned about the gaps around the false bottom, but the pictures make them look worse than it is..but it also sits flat on the bottom and will filter through the side if any grain does sneak by the top so im not that worried. Waiting to take the plastic off the HERMS coil until im ready to start fill testing to keep from scratching it while moving crap around.

Whole Setup
2015-08-20%2022.09.11.jpg


Close Up Of Temp Probe
2015-08-20%2021.06.39.jpg


BK Outside & Inside
2015-08-20%2022.10.27.jpg

2015-08-20%2022.14.41.jpg


MLT Outside & Inside
2015-08-20%2022.10.00.jpg

2015-08-20%2022.10.17.jpg


HLT Outside & Inside
2015-08-20%2022.09.31.jpg

2015-08-19%2017.44.24.jpg


Last steps before Brew Day
- Wire up Elements
- Get 240V Socket installed to left of my table(So far had 2 electricians come out for a bid, neither has actually sent me a bid, contacting a 3rd tommorrow).
- Wire up my control panel
- Last thing i'll do is probably make my hoses once i have a good idea for how they will be used and can size them accordingly, i have a big 50' spool of it but hate to waste since its so expensive!

Maybe I missed it but what holds the herms coil up above the heating element? Are they just supported where the tube mates up with the enter and exit fittings?

I may have to pick up three of these. I was pricing out Blichmann and holy crap 3 of those add up. I say some of these on eBay for under $100. Of course the blichmann ones already come with a valve, dip tube, thermometer and sight glass and then you can add just about any option but one would think you can add all to that yourself for around $700-$1000 less.

So the concord 20 gallon pots are only 18.? so gallons? Does this effect anything when doing 10 gallon recipes other than maybe a high gravity barleywine? I've never done a barley wine and don't know if I ever will so do I need not be concerned?
 
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