Lets Do This - 20 Gallon Concord 3 Vessel HERMS

[BrunDog]

As long as the two legs show some continuity (it shouldn't be ~0 ohms) across them and open circuit (infinite ohms or no beep) from each leg to the ground terminal, you are good. The element itself it likely grounded as it is bonded to the base.

-BD

 

[SilverZero]

Maybe I missed it but what holds the herms coil up above the heating element? Are they just supported where the tube mates up with the enter and exit fittings?

I may have to pick up three of these. I was pricing out Blichmann and holy crap 3 of those add up. I say some of these on eBay for under $100. Of course the blichmann ones already come with a valve, dip tube, thermometer and sight glass and then you can add just about any option but one would think you can add all to that yourself for around $700-$1000 less.

So the concord 20 gallon pots are only 18.? so gallons? Does this effect anything when doing 10 gallon recipes other than maybe a high gravity barleywine? I've never done a barley wine and don't know if I ever will so do I need not be concerned?

I haven't actually filled and measured mine, but there 17.5" internal diameter (maybe a tad more) and 19" internal height, I believe. That's 19.8 gallons to the brim according to my calculations. They're great pots for the money, especially when you can get them for 15% off like I did during a sale. Got 3 shipped for $307 or something like that. Contact the seller on eBay and tell them you want 3, they might give you a discount.

They aren't tall like some brew kettles so there may be more boil-off to calculate for but I love mine. I got the ones with the domed top. I kinda wish I'd gotten one of the other model that come with a steamer basket so I could rig a simple grain basket for the mash tun but I'll just fabricate a copper manifold.

If you're worried about boil over (and you should be, always) you should get a vial of fermcap. That and paying attention will save you a lot of trouble. It also helps to have a quick way to cut the boil (I'm still wondering if I want to install a knob control for mine instead of just the manual mode on my PID).

 

[Paul_Aris]

I haven't actually filled and measured mine, but there 17.5" internal diameter (maybe a tad more) and 19" internal height, I believe. That's 19.8 gallons to the brim according to my calculations. They're great pots for the money, especially when you can get them for 15% off like I did during a sale. Got 3 shipped for $307 or something like that. Contact the seller on eBay and tell them you want 3, they might give you a discount.

They aren't tall like some brew kettles so there may be more boil-off to calculate for but I love mine. I got the ones with the domed top. I kinda wish I'd gotten one of the other model that come with a steamer basket so I could rig a simple grain basket for the mash tun but I'll just fabricate a copper manifold.

If you're worried about boil over (and you should be, always) you should get a vial of fermcap. That and paying attention will save you a lot of trouble. It also helps to have a quick way to cut the boil (I'm still wondering if I want to install a knob control for mine instead of just the manual mode on my PID).

Right now with my Keggle which holds 15.5 I only lose about 1.2 gallons to boil off over 60 minutes. I wonder if these kettles will be off a lot more or not enough to worry about.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

I haven't actually filled and measured mine, but there 17.5" internal diameter (maybe a tad more) and 19" internal height, I believe. That's 19.8 gallons to the brim according to my calculations. They're great pots for the money, especially when you can get them for 15% off like I did during a sale. Got 3 shipped for $307 or something like that. Contact the seller on eBay and tell them you want 3, they might give you a discount.

They aren't tall like some brew kettles so there may be more boil-off to calculate for but I love mine. I got the ones with the domed top. I kinda wish I'd gotten one of the other model that come with a steamer basket so I could rig a simple grain basket for the mash tun but I'll just fabricate a copper manifold.

If you're worried about boil over (and you should be, always) you should get a vial of fermcap. That and paying attention will save you a lot of trouble. It also helps to have a quick way to cut the boil (I'm still wondering if I want to install a knob control for mine instead of just the manual mode on my PID).

I did for my boil kettle to setup my sight glass, I measured by weight(8.34lb per gal) to be more precise than line markings on the side of a container. I got the 19 gallon line on and there's some space above it so it's so it's pretty close to 20 gallons at the brim I'd guess

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

The great wiring begins...i got everything drilled and mounted minus a few M4 screws i need to get tomorrow.

I moved everything around a bit more to make more sense, i moved the RPI up against the far wall and ill just be velcroing it there to the side in its case, this makes more sense as the top relay is the main power contactor which feeds down into the other contactors for each element. Im having to go a bit heavy (10 Gauge) for things like the coils even though i planned to use 14 Gauge because the spade connectors that fit the coil are the yellow ones, it will make the wiring a bit more of a PITA having to use such thick wire for the front panel but should be ok...i have a bunch of adhesive backed tie down things i can stick zip ties through to bundle all the cables up at choke points once i figure out where those are.

I am thinking about wiring my RPI to always be on if the box is plugged in, not just when the panel is turned on...thoughts? Then again i think keeping it on 24/7 might ruin this cheap 110V->5V power supply too fast now that i say it out loud. Regardless the power supply needs to also be near the top as it gets its power from the main contactor. You probably cant see it but the sainsmart relay is up on about 1/4" plastic risers to bring it(and its solder points on the bottom) up off the grounded back plate.

I like where the RPI is because ill be able to easily pull a cat5 cable and HDMI to the side there for some jacks if i decide to go that route, and its the biggest thing i have so its nice to have it up and out of the way a bit. Still trying to figure out exactly how all the wire routing will go, im going to try to keep it as nice as possible but with how cramped some things are its making it tough like the left bottom main power contactor pin you can see has to go around the bottom and then back up the top of the other contactor because its too tight of a bend to make...such is life it will work.

Im very loosely basing it off of PJ's diagram here

Except i wont have pump switches, the RPI (Elsinore) will be controlling those through the Relay board, also obviously im not using a PID, that will be replaced with the RPI as well, and all the lights are listed as 240V and mine are 120V so ill have to wire them accordingly....either way to my eye its a good representation atleast of how the contactors/LED/Switch/Outlets are wired together, oh and ill have no fuses...no space. Fingers crossed!

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Maybe I missed it but what holds the herms coil up above the heating element? Are they just supported where the tube mates up with the enter and exit fittings?

I may have to pick up three of these. I was pricing out Blichmann and holy crap 3 of those add up. I say some of these on eBay for under $100. Of course the blichmann ones already come with a valve, dip tube, thermometer and sight glass and then you can add just about any option but one would think you can add all to that yourself for around $700-$1000 less.

So the concord 20 gallon pots are only 18.? so gallons? Does this effect anything when doing 10 gallon recipes other than maybe a high gravity barleywine? I've never done a barley wine and don't know if I ever will so do I need not be concerned?

Yes its just held by the compression fittings, its pretty rigged and doesnt move or flex at all really even if i tip the pot upside down to get the remaining fluid out of the pot..i cant tell you if copper would be the same but these ones from Stainlessbrewing are top notch IMO so far...

But yes you could build one pretty cheap, you can see my total cost for the pods themselves in the first post. About 1k total for all 3 pots...assume if your doing weldless your probably looking at another $100 or so as those kits are more expensive than just a coupler.

This of course doesnt count the cost of tools, but really all you need is a hole saw or step bit and some lube you can get at Harbor freight for $8. Most of my tool costs are associated with my panel, which is still pretty cheap and will be about $300 total if i had to guess? , $400 if you count the tools i bought(like a ratcheting crimper, some new wire strippers a few other things like a cat5 crimper im not even using because i changed my panel build) I may put together a list to see what it actually cost if anyones interested in building their own Elsinore box. A lot of the cost is in the LED's and switches for the front panel of all things each LED is $10, as well as the $70 RPI of course, i got a my enclosure at 50% sale on Amazon ...

 

[BeardedBrews]

I am thinking about wiring my RPI to always be on if the box is plugged in, not just when the panel is turned on...thoughts?

I am shopping parts for a control box very similar to yours, I will be keeping mine powered on all the time. The 5v power supply should be just fine, and having the RPI on all the time lets you do cool stuff!

The great wiring begins..Fingers crossed!

You might want to consider sneaking in some 1-wire expansion ports (and wire 5v into the plug on one pin).

A 1-wire 2-channel breakout board is only $5
http://www.adafruit.com/products/1551?

Combined with a 2-channel relay board for $7
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E0NTPP4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And a spare DS18B20 for $2
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CHEZ250/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


Would get you a $15 remote control head for your fermentation chambers or serving fridges.


<Edit>
Or I could actually read through your other posts and see you already have a brewpi for fermentation.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

So as expected, cramming everything in that box is making wiring a bit more difficult than it probably needs to be.

I'm having to daisy chain my neutral wire between devices like the LED's and 110V outlet because i dont have room for a dedicated bus bar for neutral. I'll also have to do something similar for the ground.

Need to do some research on my LED's to see if it matters what goes to what connector? Its not labeled in any way to say HOT and Neutral...

 

[BrunDog]

Are the screws colored (brass/silver)?

 

[LandoLincoln]

I purchased cork matting material for underneath my pots and now I wish I had gone with rubber or neoprene mats. The cork gets wet and then it sticks to the undersides of my pots and then cork material gets ripped away. Invest in some rubber or neoprene mats and don't glue them to the tabletop.

 

[augiedoggy]

I purchased cork matting material for underneath my pots and now I wish I had gone with rubber or neoprene mats. The cork gets wet and then it sticks to the undersides of my pots and then cork material gets ripped away. Invest in some rubber or neoprene mats and don't glue them to the tabletop.

a plain sheet of floor underlayment or plywood works great too... not sure why people choose cork for this... doesnt it absorb moisture? plain wood cutting boards also work great. (like a pizza cutting board)

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Are the screws colored (brass/silver)?

I got the ones it looks like everyone else uses, including Kal, the American LED-gible 22mm indicator lights...both screws appear to be silver.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C9O3OH6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[BigFloppy]

wire the leds either way, they don't use much juice so you can use 18+ gauge wire (Telephone wire would work)

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

wire the leds either way, they don't use much juice so you can use 18+ gauge wire (Telephone wire would work)

Yea im wiring most of the LED's and stuff with 14 gauge just because thats what i already have a spool of and lots of ring terminals.

But a lot of it im having to do 10 gauge because of how im having to connect things to my Contactors which use 10 Gauge quick connect pin things.

 

[BigFloppy]

just don't use 14 ga wire for elements

 

[BrunDog]

I probably shouldn't go here but you should use appropriate wire for the job. Telephone wire should not be used for this application, independent of its application. IMO solid conductor should not be used anywhere in a control box.

-BD

 

[augiedoggy]

Yea im wiring most of the LED's and stuff with 14 gauge just because thats what i already have a spool of and lots of ring terminals.

But a lot of it im having to do 10 gauge because of how im having to connect things to my Contactors which use 10 Gauge quick connect pin things.

the leds draw less than an amp... even 14 g is way overkill really but if its going to have 240v going through it the insulation matters more. I believe 18 awg is the smallest wire rated for such use.. but I believe kal proved that wrong with the rating of telephone wire.

 

[augiedoggy]

I probably shouldn't go here but you should use appropriate wire for the job. Telephone wire should not be used for this application, independent of its application. IMO solid conductor should not be used anywhere in a control box.

-BD

Why not? its no different that using it in any other electrical box with a breaker or switch in it? Do you do think you need to make your panel see a lot of vibration? do you open yours up and constantly move the wires around? in all other aspects I believe telephone wire is rated for up to 300v or something close and certainly can handle the .01 amp draw of an led indicator light.

My box is permanently mounted on a wall as they would be in any professional installation like a factory unless it was mounted directly to some heavy machinery which caused vibration I dont see the issue with it myself but hey just my 2 cents.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

So decided to start over on wiring, i think i need to be following something like this diagram more

I also didnt like how things were going, too many connectors banging into eachother because of how close i put the contactors. So now im back to something like this

My question now is, if the right two contactors are feeding my outlets at the bottom, what is the risk if any of routing the two hot lines down past the Mechanical relay and power supply? Do i have any chance of screwing with the relay/PS running such high current cables over or near them to get to the outlets?

 

[augiedoggy]

So decided to start over on wiring, i think i need to be following something like this diagram more

I also didnt like how things were going, too many connectors banging into eachother because of how close i put the contactors. So now im back to something like this

My question now is, if the right two contactors are feeding my outlets at the bottom, what is the risk if any of routing the two hot lines down past the Mechanical relay and power supply? Do i have any chance of screwing with the relay/PS running such high current cables over or near them to get to the outlets?

as long as you are using the correct type of wire designed for the correct voltage you will be fine with the wires touching on another... if you were going cheap (short runs of 14 awg will work in a control panel but the wire will get warm and could cause issues with the insulation down the road ) I dont recommend skimping just as much as I dont see the point in overkill since it costs more and makes it harder to run the wires...

My control box is 12x12x8 and its very tight with a lot of wires crossing and touching each other....I think we had this discussion before when you were saying you thought you didnt need a bigger box right?

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

as long as you are using the correct type of wire designed for the correct voltage you will be fine with the wires touching on another... if you were going cheap (short runs of 14 awg will work in a control panel but the wire will get warm and could cause issues with the insulation down the road ) I dont recommend skimping just as much as I dont see the point in overkill since it costs more and makes it harder to run the wires...

My control box is 12x12x8 and its very tight with a lot of wires crossing and touching each other....I think we had this discussion before when you were saying you thought you didnt need a bigger box right?

Yea makes sense I didn't think it would matter, it all fits just tight and I found I put things in the wrong spot the first time, I save room and wiring not needing multiple pids wired up like yours though since it all goes to the rpi.

 

[BrunDog]

In my experience you can never have enough enclosure space. Helps with wiring, debugging, and upgrades. But if you have what you have, just try to set up in logical wiring flow manner as you are.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Didnt even think that i could use 14 Gauge for my neutral bus...thats what Kal's doing so it makes my life a lot easier trying to jumper bus's with 10 gauge connectors just doesnt work.

Also didnt realize my ground post's on my enclosure need a bigger diameter ring terminal than what i have? Ill have to goto the store and see if i can find some 10 Gauge ones that are bigger diameter?

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Successfully wired my 120V->5V 2A power supply to my RPI. Had it set to 5.06V and it wouldnt turn on, im guessing losses after the short USB cable were dropping it too low? Bumped the output pins to 5.17V and it powers on...great! I had hoped to wire up my Onewire sensors today to play with SBE and at least setup my pumps since i dont have my 220V outlet yet...but it will have to wait until tomorrow when i can go get some more jumper cables to plug into my breadboard, lost my old ones in the move and i have no idea where they are....

 

[crane]

Couple comments on things you mentioned previously.

1. WiFi vs wired Ethernet. Those little USB WiFi adapters that come with RPis generally don't have the best range. If you put it inside your panel and close the lid your wireless range will drop to almost nothing. In my BCS panel I stated out with a WiFi bridge that had an internal antenna. The range was about 5 feet with the front panel closed. I have switched to a different WiFi bridge that allowed me to mount an SMA bulkhead to the panel so the antenna can screw onto the outside of the panel. Works much better now.

2. Power for just the RPi in between brews. I set my panel up so I can plug in an external 5V wall wort while I am not brewing so just the BCS and WiFi bridge are on. This allows me to configure the BCS for my next brew day without having to turn on the main 220V power. I find this feature very convenient.

 

[SilverZero]

Didnt even think that i could use 14 Gauge for my neutral bus...thats what Kal's doing so it makes my life a lot easier trying to jumper bus's with 10 gauge connectors just doesnt work.

Also didnt realize my ground post's on my enclosure need a bigger diameter ring terminal than what i have? Ill have to goto the store and see if i can find some 10 Gauge ones that are bigger diameter?

I don't know how easy they are to find but those ring terminals do come in different ring sizes. I'm fortunate enough to have had a huge supply of them for all my wire sizes, but they're out there somewhere. Lowe's and HD seem to just carry the one size from what I've seen.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Couple comments on things you mentioned previously.

1. WiFi vs wired Ethernet. Those little USB WiFi adapters that come with RPis generally don't have the best range. If you put it inside your panel and close the lid your wireless range will drop to almost nothing. In my BCS panel I stated out with a WiFi bridge that had an internal antenna. The range was about 5 feet with the front panel closed. I have switched to a different WiFi bridge that allowed me to mount an SMA bulkhead to the panel so the antenna can screw onto the outside of the panel. Works much better now.

2. Power for just the RPi in between brews. I set my panel up so I can plug in an external 5V wall wort while I am not brewing so just the BCS and WiFi bridge are on. This allows me to configure the BCS for my next brew day without having to turn on the main 220V power. I find this feature very convenient.

Yea i have a 120V->5V 2A power supply I got off Amazon for like $6 im mounting inside and it will be fed directly from my power cable coming in before the main power contactor(switch) so it should always be on.

Got the RPI up and running SBE and detecting all 3 temp sensors, took a lot of work but its done. I think i should be able to wrap up the wiring tomorrow on the panel.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

I would like to first start out saying that i found the most amazing thing in the world i had no idea existed, a wireless soldering iron. Oh lord throw 3 AA batteries in this stupid thing i found at Frys for $20(cant find my current one) and within 10 seconds its super hot and ready to go. Small compared to my normal wired irons and i went to town wiring my XLR jacks, i was totally expecting having to pull them from the case, solder everything and then put them back in but was able to just quickly solder all the connectors in place in about 15 minutes which says alot, you can see how cramped it is in there with all the contactors. No joke one of the best gadgets ive bought this year lol...made my life so much easier...i also fly(or used too but haven't in a few years) Electric RC planes and having this would make fixing things offsite or even at home WAY easier.

Got my panel mostly wired, got the Elsinore setup more or less..all the probes are reading, and i was able to successfully setup and turn on my switches for my pump plugs, i have no power going into them because its wired up off my 240V plug...but i can see the LED's come on and hear the relays clicking so im confident it will work. For now i have a rigged 120V cable i wired directly into the 120V-5V power supply for testing, so ill have to pull that out and wire it to my main power cable in as well...Oh and wire in the hot line for the LED's...

Overall good night, didnt finish like i hoped but got a lot done and really just need to wire in the 240V outlets from the contactors and rewire the 120V->5V as i said above and im ready..contacting the cheapest Electrician quote i got to hopefully get the outlet installed soon.

The wiring isnt too bad so far, i have them all routed through zipties that arent pulled tight yet so it will clean up a bit more when i get to that point. Also need to shorten up the cables going into the Relay board from the 120V socket, it was the last thing i did and wanted to test it before going to bed so just kept them long and shoved the thing in there to test it so thats why theres a big clusterfk of wires down there. Also hope i like the positioning of my Breadboard, all the cheap POS's lost all their stickiness on the back even though they had the film cover on them and were in a bag this entire time...so i JB welded the damn thing to the box...not going anywhere now The power comes in the bottom of the left most relay, and comes out and over to the other two relays that feed downwards towards the plug, seems to be a good flow so far since i can wire my plug hot's directly onto the first contactor to save wiring.

Also the wifi seems to work fine in the enclosure? It only has 2 bars, but i can access it via my laptop no problem and it seems to be very responsive...keeping it setup such that i can modify the panel and do wired if required. This is proof you can build an Elsinore in a 10x10x5 box I wanted to make it as compact as possible so i have room to hang it on my wall near the outlet.

 

[AkBrew907]

Picked up a wireless soldering iron a few years back on a whim cause the store was actually out of ones you plug in. Love the thing. It takes a couple seconds to get hot but if you get your work setup before hand you can blast through what you need to solder.


Panel is looking good!

 

[QuinnR]

Great thread so far! Tagging along. Gotta get my setup going soon too, might need some pointers