Lallemand's Belle Saison and Voss Kveik combination

[Sipina]

I am trying to possibly achieve a bit more complexity in my saisons ...

Anyone tried out this combo? What are your thoughts?

It seems the fermentation temperatures of both yeasts overlap nicely at around 30 degrees celsius; also the voss kveik gives strong fruity esters and it has a lower attenuation (76-82%) than belle saison while belle saison has much higher attenuation (86-94%) due to it's diastaticus nature and it will give some lemony esters and a nice phenolic profile with more aging.

 

[Miraculix]

I am trying to possibly achieve a bit more complexity in my saisons ...

Anyone tried out this combo? What are your thoughts?

It seems the fermentation temperatures of both yeasts overlap nicely at around 30 degrees celsius; also the voss kveik gives strong fruity esters and it has a lower attenuation (76-82%) than belle saison while belle saison has much higher attenuation (86-94%) due to it's diastaticus nature and it will give some lemony esters and a nice phenolic profile with more aging.

I thought about the same. I like to ferment belle around 35c and Voss does also very well at that temp. I'd say go for it and don't forget to let us know about the outcome!

Keep it in the fermenter for at least two weeks, maybe better for three weeks. Belle somehow slows down at the end. It will bring the fg down to near 1.0. you can also open ferment for the first two or three days, that will help with the speed, together with the higher temperature.

 

[Sipina]

Keep it in the fermenter for at least two weeks, maybe better for three weeks. Belle someone's allowed down at the end. It will bring the fg down to near 1.0. you can also open ferment for the first two or three days, that will help with the speed, together with the higher temperature.

That's exactly how I have been working with diastaticus yeasts (belle saison, be-134, farmhouse, M41)) and have had great results so far. Open fermented when at the peak of fermentation and left in the fermenter for 3 weeks. I always get a reading of SG(fg)1.000 - 1.002 with this approach.

Last time I fermented belle saison at around 30 degrees celsius (maybe more) and was quite happy with the result. Another benefit of the belle saison is the supposed strong biotransformation capability which can be used to a advantage of getting a bit more complexity in the finished product.

 

[Miraculix]

That's exactly how I have been working with diastaticus yeasts (belle saison, be-134, M41)) and have had great results so far. Open fermented when at the peak of fermentation and left in the fermenter for 3 weeks. I always get a reading of SG(fg)1.000 - 1.002 with this approach.

Last time I fermented belle saison at around 30 degrees celsius (maybe more) and was quite happy with the result. Another benefit of the belle saison is the supposed strong biotransformation capability which can be used to a advantage of getting a bit more complexity in the finished product.

I tried about 2g/l mash hops last time to up biotransformation, don't know if that actually did something or not, but it surely didn't hurt.

 

[Miraculix]

I want to add that for saisons, my experience is that all the liquid yeasts that I tried were far superior to dry saison yeasts in regards to saison flavour expression. My favourite is up to today imperial rustic, closely followed by wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Both greatly benefit from the same fermentation schedule that you've described above and from a generous starter obviously.

 

[dmtaylor]

Interesting combo, since Voss is super fast and Belle is super slow. As long as you give it a month to ferment, it should turn out good. But it does seem an odd combo based on fermentation rates.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting combo, since Voss is super fast and Belle is super slow. As long as you give it a month to ferment, it should turn out good. But it does seem an odd combo based on fermentation rates.

Belle is only super slow when not pampered correctly. It really wants higher temperatures at minimum 30c. Plus it really likes open fermentation. If you keep temperatures high and oxygen available, it will speed things up cosiderably. Can be done in two weeks. Still slower than kveik, but no problem, kveik leaves a lot on the table that belle will munch on afterwards or which belle will make accessible for the kveik by excreting enzymes.

 

[Sipina]

I want to add that for saisons, my experience is that all the liquid yeasts that I tried were far superior to dry saison yeasts in regards to saison flavour expression. My favourite is up to today imperial rustic, closely followed by wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Both greatly benefit from the same fermentation schedule that you've described above and from a generous starter obviously.

Thanks for recommendation.
Have you tried lallemand's Farmhouse? I think you might like it!

 

[eliastheodosis]

If anything you could offset the pitches by a day or two. Belle first for 1-2 days and then Voss. It's a variable to tweak at least. Belle might take a while to wrap up the fermentation but if you can get ferm peaks to align reasonably then it should be very interesting. I think Belle character gets cleaner over the temp range so another option is to start low with Belle for a couple days if you want a different profile and then as it ramps pitch Voss. Let it climb in temp, clean up, and creep to basically 1.002 over a couple more weeks with Belle and you're set.

I agree with @Miraculix about liquid options, though. I think that's probably the better path IMO. I think Imperial Rustic is the Blaugies strain, which is beautiful and complex and reliable. My favorite go to. I went to the Blaugies restaurant last year too and it was one of the best experiences of my life. The Dupont strain is always fun, if a bit temperamental. Bootleg Biology also offers a couple other interesting strains. Saison Parfait is a very characterful blend, just watch out for the sulfur and make sure to let it blow off, especially if you ferment under 25C. Their Glazen Toren yeast has a really pretty cakey lemon curd profile if you want something different. Plus, you're supporting Jeff and all his madness. If you want something more readily available then try Saisonstein from Omega. If you can get your hands on it then the Pakruojis Lithuanian Farmhouse yeast from The Yeast Bay is also fantastic and wonderfully complex.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for recommendation.
Have you tried lallemand's Farmhouse? I think you might like it!

I actually have a pack of it in my fridge, which I bought shortly after its release. Somehow I haven't brewed with it yet. Maybe a combination with belle would be good to up the attenuation?

 

[Sipina]

I actually have a pack of it in my fridge, which I bought shortly after its release. Somehow I haven't brewed with it yet. Maybe a combination with belle would be good to up the attenuation?

I suggest to try it on it's own first. Good attenuation can still be achieved with mashing schedule.

 

[Miraculix]

I suggest to try it on it's own first. Good attenuation can still be achieved with mashing schedule.

Yep, that was the plan. First round is a stepped up starter with about a quarter of the pack to get rid of the drying shock. Hochkurz mash plus simple sugars in form of invert no.1.

If that results in a nice beer, maybe next time a mix with belle.

 

[Sipina]

I am moving forward with this idea.

I prepared a wort very much rich with glucose using 66% Pilsner malt mixed with 33% CaramelPilsner malt and some continental hops in the mix.

First carboy contains only the mentioned wort which was picthed with Lallemand's Voss Kveik at around 40 degrees celsium.

The second carboy is the more interesting one for this experiement. It is a 1:1 mix of the mentioned wort and a SP1.040 solution of forest/chestnut honey. This one was pitched with a combo of Lallemand's Kveik Voss and Belle Saison at a temperature of about 35 degrees celsium.

The third carboy is roughly a 1:1 mix of forest/chestnut honey and wildflower honey both SP1.040. This one was pitched with only Belle Saison also at 30 degrees celsium.

All of the carboys received some yeast nutrition via Lallemand's Fermaid-O more or less accurately calcuted via TOSNA3 and Batchbuildr. The fermentation started yesterday evening shortly after inoculation with the yeasts and so far in the very early stage seems to very well.

 

[Sipina]

The second carboy which is more relevant for this experiment had developed some sulphuric H2S smell after about 12 hours into fermentation. Therefore it received another dose of Fermaid-O nutrients and the H2S smell seems to have dissipated in about 2-4 hours after addition. The aroma coming out of it now is quite phenolic and fruity. Really nice. I hope it transfers into the end product.

Already it can be observed that Kveik is a very fast acting and Belle Saison is slower. The first - only kveik carboy has basically already finished the primary bulk of fermentation while the other two are still slowly but actively fermenting away.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

I am trying to possibly achieve a bit more complexity in my saisons ...

Anyone tried out this combo? What are your thoughts?

It seems the fermentation temperatures of both yeasts overlap nicely at around 30 degrees celsius; also the voss kveik gives strong fruity esters and it has a lower attenuation (76-82%) than belle saison while belle saison has much higher attenuation (86-94%) due to it's diastaticus nature and it will give some lemony esters and a nice phenolic profile with more aging.

Did this last year for a strong saison:

12 lb 8 oz (82.5%) — Dingemans Pilsen MD — Grain — 1.7 °L

Other (2 lb 9.5 oz)​

2 lb (13.7%) — Dextrose — Sugar — 0 °L
9 oz (3.8%) — Cane (Beet) Sugar — Sugar — 0 °L

Hops (84 g)​

10 g (12 IBU) — Hallertau Blanc 10.5% — Boil — 60 min
18 g (8 IBU) — Hallertau Blanc 10.5% — Boil — 10 min
28 g (8 IBU) — Nelson Sauvin 12% — Boil — 5 min
28 g (2 IBU) — Nelson Sauvin 12% — Boil — 1 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Voss Kveik 81%
2 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Belle Saison 88%

Fermented at 25C for 21 days even though it went from 1.071 to 1.002 in 4!
It was absolutely delicious. I might need to brew this again real soon!

 

[Sipina]

Fermented at 25C for 21 days even though it went from 1.071 to 1.002 in 4!
It was absolutely delicious. I might need to brew this again real soon!

Sounds good!
Can you give any aroma/flavor/texture descriptors you had with this beer?

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Sounds good!
Can you give any aroma/flavor/texture descriptors you had with this beer?

Been a year but if my memory serves correctly it was light and bone dry ( which I love!) Very tart like a dry white wine. Pleasant peppery spice. Tasted far lighter than the 9% ABV! Quite dangerous! My non beer drinking wife even loved it.

I couldn’t tell from my notes but I “may” have delayed the Voss pitch a day or two into fermentation.

The other fun thing with this batch was I pitched a 10% Tripel onto the post ferment cake and added a pack of M31for flavor….arguably the best Tripel I’ve made.

 

[Sipina]

Time to do a report altough a delayed one. Will try to remember as much details as possible.

I will only report on the 'second' carboy which is the relevant one. For details you can see here.

This was indeed a worthwile experiment. The end product was bone dry altough having a slick, 'glycerol' like mouthfeel to it which most likely comes from belle saison yeast. I carbed it quite strong in the bottles which also contributed to the mouthfeel in a positive way. The braggot was crystal clear with an enjoyable phenolic and fruity aroma, maybe a bit more on the phenolic side - again thanks to belle saison yeast. Flavor was a marriage of all the ingredients and yeasts similar to the aroma with more fruity note, almost white wine like with grainy notes and a lovely texture. Not quite as complex as anticipated however in the end it was very enjoyable and rewarding for me.

The key thing to having a good result with this was feeding with fermaid-0 and proper conditioning time in the bottles. In the first few weeks after bottling the braggot was not much enjoyable at all and I was not happy at this stage - however after about 2 months it really started to shine. It seems that with my brewing process and approach at least two months in the bottle is the minimal time for these beers, braggots, sessions meads to really start to shine. I mostly use yeast for belgian style, often diastatics and pof+.

In closing I would say that simply using Lallemand's Farmhouse yeast instead of this combo of Voss + Belle would most likely produce superior organoleptic results. Pitch temp. would have to be lower but that's not an issue in this case as Farmhouse can be pitched at summer ambient temperatures with great results. Also other things such as conditioning time on oak chips or spices/herbals could be used to further increase the complexity.

Regards, Sipina

 

[Miraculix]

Thnaks for the update!

My experiments with farmhouse showed the same results. Farmhouse and lallemand abbaye in the mix was better than lallemand abbey alone, but I think farmhouse alone would have been even better. This was in a dubbel-ish type of beer.

Cheers!

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Need to give Farmhouse a whirl one of these days! So many beers I want to brew…so little time!

 

[Sipina]

Thnaks for the update!

My experiments with farmhouse showed the same results. Farmhouse and lallemand abbaye in the mix was better than lallemand abbey alone, but I think farmhouse alone would have been even better. This was in a dubbel-ish type of beer.

Cheers!

Indeed I did a dubbelish style beer for winter time using farmhouse fermenting at the low temp. range with very tasty results. Great to hear of your similar experience.

 

[Sipina]

If anything you could offset the pitches by a day or two. Belle first for 1-2 days and then Voss. It's a variable to tweak at least. Belle might take a while to wrap up the fermentation but if you can get ferm peaks to align reasonably then it should be very interesting. I think Belle character gets cleaner over the temp range so another option is to start low with Belle for a couple days if you want a different profile and then as it ramps pitch Voss. Let it climb in temp, clean up, and creep to basically 1.002 over a couple more weeks with Belle and you're set.

I agree with @Miraculix about liquid options, though. I think that's probably the better path IMO. I think Imperial Rustic is the Blaugies strain, which is beautiful and complex and reliable. My favorite go to. I went to the Blaugies restaurant last year too and it was one of the best experiences of my life. The Dupont strain is always fun, if a bit temperamental. Bootleg Biology also offers a couple other interesting strains. Saison Parfait is a very characterful blend, just watch out for the sulfur and make sure to let it blow off, especially if you ferment under 25C. Their Glazen Toren yeast has a really pretty cakey lemon curd profile if you want something different. Plus, you're supporting Jeff and all his madness. If you want something more readily available then try Saisonstein from Omega. If you can get your hands on it then the Pakruojis Lithuanian Farmhouse yeast from The Yeast Bay is also fantastic and wonderfully complex.

I am reading this again now. What a comprehensive reply. Thank you!

 

[Halfakneecap]

I am trying to possibly achieve a bit more complexity in my saisons ...

Anyone tried out this combo? What are your thoughts?

It seems the fermentation temperatures of both yeasts overlap nicely at around 30 degrees celsius; also the voss kveik gives strong fruity esters and it has a lower attenuation (76-82%) than belle saison while belle saison has much higher attenuation (86-94%) due to it's diastaticus nature and it will give some lemony esters and a nice phenolic profile with more aging.

If you want more complexity don't use belle saison. Try the Lallemand Farmhouse or Wy3726 or 3724

Personally i don't think those 2 yeast strains will work together.

EDIT , replied after reading the first post. Didn't realise it was an older thread.