Lagering question

[electric_beer]

When you lager do your temps have to be 50+- degrees or are temps closer to 48ish due to the temp that will be created by the yeast? I know with ale yeasts they can get rather warm from the fermentation, is lager yeast similar or are you at a low enough temp that the yeasties don't get so hot? I have a fridge which hovers around 48 degrees and I'm curious if I need to invest in a temp regulator (probably a good idea) or if I could get away with doing a lager at the warmest setting before getting more equipment. SWMBO isn't too interested in me having a chest freezer in the house.

 

[Yooper]

When you ferment a lager, usually the temperature should be between 48-55 degrees depending on yeast strain. Just like with ales, that's the fermentation temperature not the ambient. But, usually a 48 degree warm will keep the fermentation at 50-52 degrees because lagers don't ferment as vigorously.

After fermentation, and a diacetyl rest, the beer is racked and then it's lagered. Lagering occurs at cold temperatures. I like to lager at 34 degrees for one week for each 8-10 points of OG, so I'd lager for 8 weeks for an 1.064 lager.

That's usually about 10 days in primary (50 degrees), 2 days at a diacetyl rest (65 degrees or so), and 8 weeks in lagering (34 degrees).

 

[doctorRobert]

I think he was trying to get at ambient temp vs wort temp for a lager yeast, as ale yeast can increase the wort temp easily by 5 to 10 degrees.

I just dont have an answer for him, I havent done a lager.

 

[electric_beer]

When you ferment a lager, usually the temperature should be between 48-55 degrees depending on yeast strain. Just like with ales, that's the fermentation temperature not the ambient. But, usually a 48 degree warm will keep the fermentation at 50-52 degrees because lagers don't ferment as vigorously.

After fermentation, and a diacetyl rest, the beer is racked and then it's lagered. Lagering occurs at cold temperatures. I like to lager at 34 degrees for one week for each 8-10 points of OG, so I'd lager for 8 weeks for an 1.064 lager.

That's usually about 10 days in primary (50 degrees), 2 days at a diacetyl rest (65 degrees or so), and 8 weeks in lagering (34 degrees).

Great info! So as long as my fridge is around 48F then I should be good to go! Thanks for the help Yoop! This will be my first lager so I figured better find out if its even possible first.

 

[electric_beer]

Another question, no reason to create another thread.

Any ideas for a first time lager recipe? I am hoping for something that is forgiving as this is my first. Also, when you ferment in a corny, how do you off gas? Pull the purge valve every few days? Or leave the lid unsealed? I've never fermented in a keg.

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

48 sounds good to me for lager fermentation. Probably want to go with a more forgiving recipe for a first lager, you're going to need some strong malt and/or hops in case you get a little diacetyl.

 

[electric_beer]

48 sounds good to me for lager fermentation. Probably want to go with a more forgiving recipe for a first lager, you're going to need some strong malt and/or hops in case you get a little diacetyl.

Sweet! Any ideas for a recipe? Maybe a Marzen?

 

[Yooper]

Sweet! Any ideas for a recipe? Maybe a Marzen?

A Marzen would be good, or a darker lager like a Schwartzbier or dopplebock might be better for a first try.

I've never fermented in a corny, so I have no idea about that!

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

I think doppelbock might be a bit advanced for a first try, especially since lagers can finish high if you don't pitch enough yeast (which is super easy to do since lagers need twice as much yeast as an ale). Marzen sounds fantastic to me. I've never done a proper one, my Altoberfest is probably getting ready to drink in a week or so. If you are interested in the recipe:

6 lbs Vienna (adjust for your efficiency)
3 lbs light Munich

I shoot for 1.055

I mash in at acid rest temp ~110 F. Pull a big decoction (I think it was 6 quarts), enough to get you to 150. Mash for 1 hour.

I used all hallertau hops and shoot for 25 IBU, I also added .5 oz with 30 min. left and .5 at 15 min. left for flavor and aroma additions (which may not be strictly traditional, but I like hallertau).

If you're going to use a lager yeast than you will need a big starter. Mr. Malty recommends 5.83 liters with intermittant shaking or 3.79 liters with a stir plate. Pitch cold and forget about it for a month at least, then lager it as long as you can stand.

 

[markg388]

I don't think there's such a thing as a forgiving lager recipe, but the next-best thing would be this dunkel (on the heavier side, since it's getting colder ) that I did last winter that came out real nice. I had a ton of compliments on this batch, it was rich, dark and easy-drinking. It's very important that the base malts come from German maltsters, especially the munich and vienna.

4# Pilsner
3# Munich
3# Vienna
.75# Crystal 40L
4oz Carafa I
4oz Melanoiden

Mash 156 for 60 min

1oz perle (8.2%aa) - 60 min
.5oz saaz (2.3%) - 1 min

2 packs saflager yeast

O.G. - 1.056
F.G. - 1.014 <---- Those were my results after brewing.

I do know that recipe comes out tasting bomb, but i don't know anything about fermenting in corny kegs. Good luck!

 

[funkswing]

Don't be intimidated by the lager.

Just make a 1 gal starter a couple of days before brewing (if using liquid yeast; if dry just use the two packages). You should notice a small krausen build and don't be alarmed by the rotten egg smell (sulfur), its just the lager yeast. Not you screwing up.

Chill it in the fridge the night before, and take out the starter in the morn of brew day. Decant most of the liquid before pitching, which should be done as close to ferm. temp as possible (~52 F in this case). This helps a ton with diacetyl. You can always put the wort in the fridge (in fermenter) until it reaches that temp if you can't cool it enough from the brew pot, even if its overnight.

Shaking the starter every time you walk by it does help them yeasties multiply.
Two weeks in primary is usually enough for 1.055 and lower brews.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Here's a different theory: if you're just starting brewing lagers, why not pick an unforgiving one so that you can more easily identify symptoms of flaws in your process? i guess it comes down to your objective. If you're trying to hone the craft, pick a demanding beer. German or Czech Pilsner, I'd say, would be a good one.

 

[funkswing]

The brewing process is essentially the same as an ale. So, mashing and boiling is just like an ale. The only difference comes with the yeast, which means you just have to cool the wort 5-10 more degrees than you do for an ale. Its all beer, one just likes it colder. I don't think people should be intimidated by brewing a lager. Just maybe know that it takes a bit more patience than the ale. Its going to ferment slower.

Brew whatever style you want, but the lower the OG (1.052 and lower) the quicker it will be ready. A big lager will take a long time before you really get to enjoy drinking it, which is kinda a bummer when you are trying to get confidence in the lager brewing.

 

[electric_beer]

Awesome! Thanks for all the suggestions. My starter is bubbling away pretty good, looking forward to brewing the schwartzbeir on Saturday and then after this finishes I'll move on to the pilsner. I see what you're saying Pilgarlic, I might have gone that route if I hadn't already bought the ingredients. Although my house loves a good dark beer so it won't be in haste!! I'll really try to post a pict of the first pint.

 

[Bob]

Any ideas for a first time lager recipe?

I second the notion of doing something kind of unforgiving but still very flavorful. Why not try a Classic American Pilsner? My version of a 1950s Brooklyn Lager might do the trick for you.

Also, when you ferment in a corny, how do you off gas? Pull the purge valve every few days? Or leave the lid unsealed? I've never fermented in a keg.

First, note that you're going to lose some volume in trub and other losses.

Second, practically speaking it's easiest by rigging a blowoff to the "gas out" fitting. Seal the lid. Leave the "beer out" closed. Rig a sanitized tube to a fitting (without check valve!) that fits the "gas in" fitting on the keg.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[electric_beer]

I second the notion of doing something kind of unforgiving but still very flavorful. Why not try a Classic American Pilsner? My version of a 1950s Brooklyn Lager might do the trick for you.



First, note that you're going to lose some volume in trub and other losses.

Second, practically speaking it's easiest by rigging a blowoff to the "gas out" fitting. Seal the lid. Leave the "beer out" closed. Rig a sanitized tube to a fitting (without check valve!) that fits the "gas in" fitting on the keg.

Cheers,

Bob

That looks like a GREAT recipe! I am doing yours next!

As for fermenting in a keg, to put my mind at ease I bought this:
http://www.kegglebrewing.com/Fermenting-Lid-for-Corny-Keg_p_120.html

I know it wasn't a freebee fix, but I don't have any extra hose connectors so I would be buying something regardless. This is simple, just work it like a regular lid and a basic airlock. Not to mention easy to attach a blowoff tube to.

 

[electric_beer]

Schwartzbeir is bubbling away in my fridge! SUCCESS!! Also I did a single decoction and the wort tasted AMAZING.

 

[funkswing]

Nice, going for gusto with the decoction. What was your mash schedule? What yeast did you use for your Schwartzbier? I just tasted a homebrew version last week and it was great. Now I'm thinking about making one since I have the lager itch. Do you think the Oktoberfestbier yeast would work well with a Schwartzbier?

 

[electric_beer]

I did a protein rest at 133 then decoction to 154 and then I just did a mash out/sparge per usual. My recipe was:

5lb German Munich
4lbs German Pilsner
6 oz German Carafa III special
4oz Special Roast
4 oz Chocolate Malt

Perle (7.5%) .50 oz @ FWH
Saaz (5.5%) .50 @ 25min
Saaz (5.5Z%) 1 oz @ 1 min

OG 1.053
IBU 22.5

Yeast WLP802 - Czech Budejovice Lager

So far its not quite done fermenting because its at such a low temp, but its coming along really nice and I have to say, the sample I pulled to check the gravity was really tasty! Not one bit of any diacetyl thank goodness.

As far as an Oktoberfest yeast I'd say go for it. That yeast is suppose to leave a nice malty profile so it would probably work out well in this beer. Man that decoction really brought out the malts.

 

[funkswing]

What is your reasoning for a protein rest in this recipe? Just wondering. I have only used one when I had oats in the recipe. My understanding was that a protein rest nowadays destroys head retaining proteins, but then again, Charlie's lager recipes generally does one for 30 minutes.

 

[electric_beer]

Did it based on pretty much everything I read about decocting lagers said that it was first step. Although I pretty much added the protein rest water and immediately pulled the decoction while it was resting so hopefully it won't hurt the head retention too bad. I keg so I'm not terribly worried.

Maybe on the next beer I'll do it without the protein rest to compare the results.

 

[funkswing]

I would say that a 10 min protein rest wouldn't effect the head retention too bad. But I still don't know if the modern highly modified malts need it (because they are already low in proteins).

I do a 45 min protein rest to kill head retention for some beers (like a Belgium Wit).