Lagering is useless

[Caleb Miller]

"No substantive changes were observed, leading to the conclusion that, once materials such as vicinal diketones and acetaldehyde have been dealt with, there is no merit in the prolonged storage of beer.

The study admits that VDKs and acetaldehyde are dealt with by lagering from the get-go. This whole thread is because someone can't, or won't, read.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Did you forget to read this part?

The simple reality is that all of these requirements can be achieved without prolonged beer storage, as was mentioned in the introduction to this paper.

Or this part?

Two of the key volatile substances that historically were removed in lagering are the vicinal diketones (6) and acetaldehyde (7). However, the scientific understanding of the origins and control of these substances is now thoroughly appreciated. Vicinaldiketones can be dealt with effectively by careful attention to primary fermentation conditions, and even for those insistent that more needs to be done, there is a range of options to accelerate the removal of these molecules (8). Effective removal of acetaldehyde is even more straightforward.

 

[Caleb Miller]

So, if you get EVERYTHING else perfect, VDKS and Acetaldehyde are dealt with before lagering.

Neato, I wonder what percentage of people get 100% right before fermentation is complete.

 

[Brooothru]

Traditionally, the earth was the center of the universe, and the sun and planets revolved around the earth (which was flat).

Wait...WHAT??!!??

You mean it's not?

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

I'm pretty sure this is a direct quotation, "Always two there are. No more, no less. An ale and a lager. Patience, my young padawan."

 

[eric19312]

So, if you get EVERYTHING else perfect, VDKS and Acetaldehyde are dealt with before lagering.

Neato, I wonder what percentage of people get 100% right before fermentation is complete.

I don't think the statement is directed at homebrewers. Commercial brewing supported by strong quality control unit I would expect this capability would be pretty common.

 

[lagermanted]

This is why scientist do not brew world class beer, a brewers with a background in science can. Data can be interrupted many ways and miss the most important part. In the late 60's dad rented our house to a Boeing engineer and we moved. It had an irrigation system and he explained the "how to" of the watering system. Turn it on 3 times a week for so long. The engineer got out his slide rule and calculated the water time for 1 month and flooded the down hill neighbor. His data was correct. I would come to the conclusion that they did not follow the correct 80 flavors. This is a great starting pint for the next 80 flavors.

As an accountant to a businessman, I would proposed making ales. Sitting around while millions of dollars sit around in storage tanks. There is a lot of pressure financially to drop lagering times for profitability. This does make sense, till you taste the outcome.

As a brewer my take is the report is probably correct BUT follow your taste buds. With that said, my German style lagers all taste better on the 3rd month. Many of my lager friends will not open a keg till month 5. I just talked with one of my pro brewer hop clients he told me his Pilsners get better longer and the 5th month is so sexy he has to drink them. The homebrewer of the year in San Diego a few years back won with a classic German rauchbier that was over 1 year in lagering. We are friends and both Grand Master beer judges, he told me the beer kept getting better with time.

I taste it beers that I lager, the beer has all the same flavors after you get rid of the simply issues but the flavors meld together and the beer softens and looses the edges. Hop flavors morph, diminish, came back stronger and sometimes fade away. The young lagers are akin to a teenager that just grew 18", all elbows and knees. Give them a little more time and they are no longer awkward. In search of the perfect pint, you will never find a definitive qualifier on what is needed. It is just pure math where 1 + 1 makes 3, sometimes 4 and better 5. Science can not tell us the secrete sauce to make a great beer better, but we can taste it when we do. It is good to see that they are seeking how to make beer better, but as home brewers we all ready know that the yeast doesn't do much after the first month, and not a lot then when you drop the temp to near freezing.

Tonight I will celebrate brewing beyond my drinking ability with a 12 year old barley wine!

 

[Beermeister32]

As a brewer my take is the report is probably correct BUT follow your taste buds. With that said, my German style lagers all taste better on the 3rd month. Many of my lager friends will not open a keg till month 5. I just talked with one of my pro brewer hop clients he told me his Pilsners get better longer and the 5th month is so sexy he has to drink them. The homebrewer of the year in San Diego a few years back won with a classic German rauchbier that was over 1 year in lagering. We are friends and both Grand Master beer judges, he told me the beer kept getting better with time.

I would agree with this, 3 months on Pilsners. Heavier Märzen / Oktoberfest I like 6 months. I’ve had batches that I’ve drank earlier, they just improve greatly by the end of the batch, then it’s all gone!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My home brewed ales stored at anywhere from cellar to room temperature taste better (more often than not) at 3 months than when fresh.

 

[Snuffy]

I, for one, will continue to lager regardless.
Some amount of post fermentation cold conditioning is obviously beneficial to the flavor of all beers and more importantly because I enjoy taking part in the tradition.

This would possibly qualify as one of the easiest conclusions to test in a HB situation. Brew a lager. Lager some. Don't lager some. Perform taste tests on both batches at different points in time.
I think the most interesting thing to investigate is if the perceived benefits of lagering are truly related to temperature or simply the normal improvement of flavors that can be experienced from standard room temp aging.

**That's so easy somebody has done it. Think I will search for the exbeeriment...

https://brulosophy.com/2018/12/17/the-lager-effect-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/l...al-vs-quick-fermentation-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Barbarossa]

Can someone explain to me if there's a difference between conditioning at low temperature and lagering at low temperature? I got confused after reading this thread.

If you used ale yeast, will it actually count as lagering? I thought that it would be more like conditioning, which I assumed should happen at higher temperature so that the yeast don't fall asleep. Is there a benefit other than cold crashing, to put a keg in the keezer at 35f?

I just did a German ale 1007 fermented at 68f and the keg ended up in the keezer. I still can't figure out the outcome other than I can plug it in CO2 and let it crash.

 

[Beermeister32]

You can lager (age, cold condition) both ales and lagers. The language can be confusing because we use the German word "lager" (storage) to describe both the cold storage conditioning and the product typically produced this way. Keep in mind though, lager yeast strains are a relatively new discovery. Most of your medieval beers were ales which they lagered in caves packed with ice and straw so they remained cold all year long. Specific lager strains were isolated later and were better suited to performing in colder temperatures.

I've even read that on some early batches, the brewers didn't really know if they would get a lager or an ale out of a batch. The pitch was likely a mixture of all sorts of yeasts. When the fermentation was done and the weather was cold, the ale yeasts were suppressed, but the lager yeast in the pitch would take off, so cold weather produced cleaner lagers. If it was warmer, the ale yeasts dominated and they would end up producing an ale. If the weather was hot they wouldn't brew, there were laws against Summer brewing in Germany. Most all were lagered - not just for taste, but to extend the beer supply all year long... Prost!

 

[Brooothru]

You can lager (age, cold condition) both ales and lagers. The language can be confusing because we use the German word "lager" (storage) to describe both the cold storage conditioning and the product typically produced this way. Keep in mind though, lager yeast strains are a relatively new discovery. Most of your medieval beers were ales which they lagered in caves packed with ice and straw so they remained cold all year long. Specific lager strains were isolated later and were better suited to performing in colder temperatures.

I've even read that on some early batches, the brewers didn't really know if they would get a lager or an ale out of a batch. The pitch was likely a mixture of all sorts of yeasts. When the fermentation was done and the weather was cold, the ale yeasts were suppressed, but the lager yeast in the pitch would take off, so cold weather produced cleaner lagers. If it was warmer, the ale yeasts dominated and they would end up producing an ale. If the weather was hot they wouldn't brew, there were laws against Summer brewing in Germany. Most all were lagered - not just for taste, but to extend the beer supply all year long... Prost!

Not to mention that the yeast morph and mutate over time. Is s. pastorianus (lager yeast) an evolutionary off-spring of s.cereviase (ale yeast)? Did ale yeasts travel from sub-equatorial regions through the Balkin states (i.e., "Bohemia") into Germany where centuries of long, cold storage (lagering) caused the yeast to mutate into a completely different beast (bottom fermenter)? Many microbiologists believe this is exactly what happened. Some genetic science as well as more recent gene sequencing has shown that a popular 'lager' yeast, WLP-838, is in fact s. cereviase and NOT s. pastorianus. The popular "Southern German Lager" yeast is in reality "Southern German Ale" yeast. After hundreds of years it didn't become a true lager, but it did adapt to cold temperature fermentation. Who knew?

Likewise, the famous ales of Northern Germany, the Alts in Dusseldorf and the Koelsches of Koln, have evolved into hybrids that ferment at mid-range temperatures for shorter periods of time without longterm storage, yet exhibit lager-like characteristics, even though they are true top-cropping ales. Now granted the climate in Dusseldorf is cooler than Munich, much like the difference between Detroit and Houston in the U.S. In fact the term "Alt Bier" differentiates the "old" style of brewing with the more "modern" beers brewed in Bavaria and stored in underground caves during the summer months. The Reinheitsgebot (German purity laws of 1513) dictated the prohibition of brewing during summer months, thus the necessity for underground storage of 'stockpiled' beer for the summer. They were strictly observed and enforced in the South, but not so much in the North. Thus, the Old Style (Alt) in Koln and Dusseldorf, and the New Style (lagers, pils) in Munich and Bavaria.

It's a chicken/egg conundrum. Did different yeasts develop into different styles of beer or did different styles of fermentation cause an adaptation into different types of yeasts? Either way, both have become delightful and enjoyable beverages that I have had the extremely good fortune to have experienced numerous times in their native settings during my life of travels. The journey continues.

 

[VikeMan]

Not to mention that the yeast morph and mutate over time. Is s. pastorianus (lager yeast) an evolutionary off-spring of s.cereviase (ale yeast)?

S. pastoranius was the result of a rare hybridization event between S. cerevisiae and another Saccharomyces species, probably S. eubayanus.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Nottingham Ale yeast will ferment down to 50-52 degrees F. and is said (where here I must inject that I've never tried this) to make a decent "lager" beer thereby (with perhaps a hint of peach???). Many attribute this to a rumor that Nottingham is a blend of strains, but I'm fairly certain that Lalemand will tell you it is a single strain.

WLP-800 is marketed as an Urquell 'lager' strain, but genetics have revealed that it is Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

My personal thinking (opinion) is that if it ferments decently at 50-52 degrees F., who cares which strain it is.

But clearly cold fermentation and subsequent cold storage should be completely separate issues. And (again, in my opinion) only cold storage is "lagering". Cold fermentation is via this line of thinking incorrectly named. And so is Lager beer that is not cold stored. It's a terminology quagmire.

 

[eric19312]

The authors of the linked peer reviewed paper had no issue differentiating between lagered beer and cold stored beer. Lagering was in the presence of yeast and done cold but a bit above 0C. Cold storage referred to beer that had been filtered to remove all yeast and then stored at slightly below 0C.

What the terms mean historically is not really relevant for understanding the experiment being discussed.

 

[Brooothru]

The authors of the linked peer reviewed paper had no issue differentiating between lagered beer and cold stored beer. Lagering was in the presence of yeast and done cold but a bit above 0C. Cold storage referred to beer that had been filtered to remove all yeast and then stored at slightly below 0C.

What the terms mean historically is not really relevant for understanding the experiment being discussed.

Yeah, but were they German?

From what little I can recall from my college German, linguistically the context of the verb "lagern" implies "cold storage" (literally, the English infinitive "to store") and only connects peripherally to the noun "bier" except in the adjectival form of "lagered beer."

Of course those memories are more than half a century old, but I clearly remember:

"Ich muss ein Bier haben." Usually immediately following one of Frau Schmidt's exams.

 

[cmac62]

The authors of the linked peer reviewed paper had no issue differentiating between lagered beer and cold stored beer. Lagering was in the presence of yeast and done cold but a bit above 0C. Cold storage referred to beer that had been filtered to remove all yeast and then stored at slightly below 0C.

What the terms mean historically is not really relevant for understanding the experiment being discussed.

With this definition any homebrewer that puts a recently filled keg into the keezer/fridge is lagering because the chance that all yeast has been removed when transferred to the keg is zero. IMHO.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Now granted the climate in Dusseldorf is cooler than Munich, much like the difference between Detroit and Houston

Not wanting to be pedantic but the climate in Munich is actually, on average, slightly cooler than Dusseldorf 's. Especially the winters can be fairly cold in Bavaria... summers aren't exceptionally hot either.

 

[Brooothru]

Not wanting to be pedantic but the climate in Munich is actually, on average, slightly cooler than Dusseldorf 's. Especially the winters can be fairly cold in Bavaria... summers aren't exceptionally hot either.

Now that you mention it, I have been comfortably warm in Dusseldorf in the summer and quite cold in Munich in the winter. Stateside I've also experienced heat fatigue in Brunswick, Maine, on a 104F day (no air conditioning) and can't remember a time when I felt colder in my life than walking across the flight line at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas, the day after a Blue Norther had blown through. I should follow my own advice that general assumptions should be left for assumptive generals.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Now that you mention it, I have been comfortably warm in Dusseldorf in the summer and quite cold in Munich in the winter. Stateside I've also experienced heat fatigue in Brunswick, Maine, on a 104F day (no air conditioning) and can't remember a time when I felt colder in my life than walking across the flight line at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas, the day after a Blue Norther had blown through. I should follow my own advice that general assumptions should be left for assumptive generals.

LOL Sorry I couldn't help but write that comment after seeing Munich climate compared to Texas's (though I admit never been there myself, nor anywhere else in the States unfortunately)...I've been living near Munich 4 years and froze my *** often enough during winters (and more than once during late springs or even summers too).

 

[eric19312]

With this definition any homebrewer that puts a recently filled keg into the keezer/fridge is lagering because the chance that all yeast has been removed when transferred to the keg is zero. IMHO.

Exactly. Nobody on the homebrew scale is making Lager that is not lagered. How long the beer is lagered will differ from brewer to brewer but they are all lagered.

 

[DuncB]

Fire in the hold

If lagering is storage then all beer is lager unless it's raw ale?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Fire in the hold

If lagering is storage then all beer is lager unless it's raw ale?

But lagering implies extended cold storage.

 

[Brooothru]

LOL Sorry I couldn't help but write that comment after seeing Munich climate compared to Texas's (though I admit never been there myself, nor anywhere else in the States unfortunately)...I've been living near Munich 4 years and froze my *** often enough during winters (and more than once during late springs or even summers too).

You truly live in one of the more beautiful places on Earth in Southern Germany. I miss the many trips I used to take there.

 

[cmac62]

But lagering implies extended cold storage.

Again the term "extended" need to be clarified. my kegs can last months in the kegerator and usually they sit in a beer fridge for a month or so before there is a spot. So all of "my" beers get some degree of lagering before they even get into the keezer. I guess it doesn't really matter, lagering is a way to age a beer that is better for the beer than to sit at room temp for that month before a spot is open.

 

[Birrofilo]

The conclusions of the study do push clearly in the direction of usefulness of lagering for a well-conducted fermentation.

<<
The present paper has not focused on volatile sub-
stances; however, it is amply documented that the key entities
such as the esters, sulphur containing molecules, vicinal diketones
and carbonyl substances (such as acetaldehyde) should be con-
trollable by competent fermentation and upstream process prac-
tices (18). For example, there are those that say that lagering is
necessary to remove an undesirable sulphidic character, e.g. that
arising from hydrogen sulphide. However ensuring vigorous fer-
mentation causes this substance to be purged with the fermenta-
tion gases (19). In just the same way entities like diacetyl (6) and
acetaldeyde (18) can be eliminated in the fermenter and without
recourse to lengthy storage periods.
[...]
The present authors contend that, whilst there may be a need
for some brewers to address matters like diacetyl, hydrogen
sulphide, acetaldehyde and perhaps a few other volatile sub-
stances post primary fermentation, it is simply a reflection of them
not having sought to deal with them earlier, or dealt with them
successfully.
>>

Even thought the study did not focus on those volatile substances that lagering is supposed to cure, they clearly state that those are the result of a manufacturing fault, and that lagering would serve as a late remedy to an early mistake. Their case against lagering is therefore not weakened by them not having taken volatile nasties into account, because if those are dealth with effectively during production, then lagering would actually end up being "useless".

They let an open door on the evaluation of possible effects on aging on certain substances such as polyphenols, for the study of which they advocate a future organoleptic analysis.

My personal take on this is that, although very interesting and something I suspected since years, a quantitative or laboratory analysis is nothing more than "interesting", and it becomes a breakthrough in brewing science only when, and if, is it validated by a serious organoleptic analysis. Just like no equation can describe the flight of a butterfly, so no chemical analysis can describe the taste of a beer IMO. Ultimately the proof always is in the pudding.

 

[DuncB]

Well I'm keeping the English ale at Cellar temp of 12 celsius, it still seems to ferment very slowly and change during the time it is being drunk. I think the dry hopping set off some hop creep.

 

[Brooothru]

The conclusions of the study do push clearly in the direction of usefulness of lagering for a well-conducted fermentation.

<<
The present paper has not focused on volatile sub-
stances; however, it is amply documented that the key entities
such as the esters, sulphur containing molecules, vicinal diketones
and carbonyl substances (such as acetaldehyde) should be con-
trollable by competent fermentation and upstream process prac-
tices (18). For example, there are those that say that lagering is
necessary to remove an undesirable sulphidic character, e.g. that
arising from hydrogen sulphide. However ensuring vigorous fer-
mentation causes this substance to be purged with the fermenta-
tion gases (19). In just the same way entities like diacetyl (6) and
acetaldeyde (18) can be eliminated in the fermenter and without
recourse to lengthy storage periods.
[...]
The present authors contend that, whilst there may be a need
for some brewers to address matters like diacetyl, hydrogen
sulphide, acetaldehyde and perhaps a few other volatile sub-
stances post primary fermentation, it is simply a reflection of them
not having sought to deal with them earlier, or dealt with them
successfully.
>>

Even thought the study did not focus on those volatile substances that lagering is supposed to cure, they clearly state that those are the result of a manufacturing fault, and that lagering would serve as a late remedy to an early mistake. Their case against lagering is therefore not weakened by them not having taken volatile nasties into account, because if those are dealth with effectively during production, then lagering would actually end up being "useless".

They let an open door on the evaluation of possible effects on aging on certain substances such as polyphenols, for the study of which they advocate a future organoleptic analysis.

My personal take on this is that, although very interesting and something I suspected since years, a quantitative or laboratory analysis is nothing more than "interesting", and it becomes a breakthrough in brewing science only when, and if, is it validated by a serious organoleptic analysis. Just like no equation can describe the flight of a butterfly, so no chemical analysis can describe the taste of a beer IMO. Ultimately the proof always is in the pudding.

Spot on analysis and inference of what was being suggested between the lines. What is not specifically addressed in the narrative are just what the "upstream steps" in fermentation are, or could be, in eliminating VDKs and other assorted culprits. I assume the usual targets are yeast health and proper temperature control. Obviously sanitation and other normal procedures are assumed. What are some other considerations for preventing undesirable outcomes before they happen?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

You truly live in one of the more beautiful places on Earth in Southern Germany. I miss the many trips I used to take there.

I think I spelled incorrectly, I used to live there betwewn 2010-2014, at the very foot of Weihenstephaner hill . Currently living near Bern, Switzerland, which enjoys an ever so slightly warmer climate (but unfortunately waaaay less quality beer, at least from the macros...luckily there is a booming craft beer scene here as well)

 

[Birrofilo]

Obviously sanitation and other normal procedures are assumed. What are some other considerations for preventing undesirable outcomes before they happen?

Vigorous fermentation was mentioned, which I think again comes as an opposition to the idea that cold fermentation is optimal for lager beer. What I implicitly read, maybe mistakenly, is that a warmer fermentation creates a more vigorous production of CO2 which in turn helps the elimination of certain unwanted compounds.

Basically too cold a fermentation stresses the yeast, creates by-products which then require lagering. Ferment more vigorously (which means higher pitch but maybe also higher temperature) and enjoy a cleaner product.

Other practices in our homebrewing world can help to avoid certain off-flavour: less DMS produced by the grains to begin with, and a faster cooling after the boiling. That might also apply to the commercial world: problems might be created in the malting room or in the kettle which are then solved by lagering, but they might be avoided rather than solved, that's the suggestion of the paper.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A 1977 study which sounds a lot like the one being discussed here:

Conclusion

On the evidence of these trials, a long period of storage after primary fermentation should not be necessary to confer improved beer quality. It seems more likely from these and earlier trials, taken in conjunction with evidence in the literature on the effects of storage on beer quality, that the aim should be to improve the control of malts and of process conditions. In this way a beer at the end of primary fermentation should be in a state which does not require extended storage to rectify undesirable qualities which have arisen earlier in the process.

https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1975.tb03785.x

 

[Brooothru]

I think I spelled incorrectly, I used to live there betwewn 2010-2014, at the very foot of Weihenstephaner hill . Currently living near Bern, Switzerland, which enjoys an ever so slightly warmer climate (but unfortunately waaaay less quality beer, at least from the macros...luckily there is a booming craft beer scene here as well)

If there's one place I enjoyed more than Germany, it would be Switzerland. I never made it to Bern, but I frequently traveled to Zurich and less often to Geneva. I never made it to Munich during Oktoberfest (preferred Munich less crowded and more, well, .... German). I did happen to be in Zurich one year during their celebration of Oktoberfest, at the park near the lake shore, and found it to be much more tame than what my daughter described as "Fest in Munchen" (she and her husband left Munich mid-visit during Fest to go to Prague; Munich was too frenetic even for their Gen-X hipster lifestyle).

I certainly agree with your evaluation of Swiss beer. It's good, not great, and compares favorably with the U.S. domestic beers I grew up on. But none come close to the beers you find everywhere in Germany.

 

[cgoldberg3]

I certainly agree with your evaluation of Swiss beer. It's good, not great, and compares favorably with the U.S. domestic beers I grew up on. But none come close to the beers you find everywhere in Germany.

Yes but their chocolate...

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

If there's one place I enjoyed more than Germany, it would be Switzerland. I never made it to Bern, but I frequently traveled to Zurich and less often to Geneva. I never made it to Munich during Oktoberfest (preferred Munich less crowded and more, well, .... German). I did happen to be in Zurich one year during their celebration of Oktoberfest, at the park near the lake shore, and found it to be much more tame than what my daughter described as "Fest in Munchen" (she and her husband left Munich mid-visit during Fest to go to Prague; Munich was too frenetic even for their Gen-X hipster lifestyle).

I certainly agree with your evaluation of Swiss beer. It's good, not great, and compares favorably with the U.S. domestic beers I grew up on. But none come close to the beers you find everywhere in Germany.

Seems you travelled a lot!
Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of Munich Oktoberfest either... the only positive is that you get to meet and talk to (drunk and less drunk) people from all over the world, which can be fun in its own right. But I much preferred the smaller Volksfests in nearby towns, such as the one where I lived in Freising... Basically the same beer and atmosphere, but waaay less crowded, much more relaxed and also more authentic...and about half the prices!

 

[Immocles]

Nottingham Ale yeast will ferment down to 50-52 degrees F. and is said (where here I must inject that I've never tried this) to make a decent "lager" beer thereby (with perhaps a hint of peach???). Many attribute this to a rumor that Nottingham is a blend of strains, but I'm fairly certain that Lalemand will tell you it is a single strain.

Notty is my go-to for pseudo/quick lagers. Far from an expert with it, but I ferment it at 54 and never pick up any peachiness. I've heard folks mention it, but I've yet to pick it up *myself*. I've always been curious myself how much of a true ale yeast it is as well. Another anomaly to me is how poorly WLP029 ferments at low temperatures, yet being way more 'lagerish' than its kolsch counterparts.

 

[InspectorJon]

You truly live in one of the more beautiful places on Earth in Southern Germany. I miss the many trips I used to take there.

My opinion of Southern Germany agrees with @Brooothru. I think this may say something about this thread. I live in Northern California in the Sierra Nevada foothills. I pulled off the highway at a vista point one time and happened to meet a man from Southern Germany. We were looking out at a view of tree covered ridge tops stretching perhaps 50 miles to the north. None of the rugged, rocky Sierra Mountain peeks, just miles of trees as far as one could see.

I asked the man why he was here in Northern California. He said he was here to see nature. He said that this view was perhaps the most beautiful place he had ever seen. I was used to it and thought it was nice but not all that impressive. Just a lot of trees and ridges. I had been in the South German Alps as well as Austria and Northern Italy six months earlier. That was one of, if not the most beautiful place I had ever seen and this view held no comparison.

I suspect an objective scientific study might prove Southern Germany is more beautiful than the Sierra Foothills but my friend from Southern Germany would not have been convinced. It is all so influenced by our personal experience.

 

[Brooothru]

Yes but their chocolate...

Oh yes, the chocolates, not to mention the Cuban cigars, I'm told, one could purchase at the Davidoff's shop on the Banhoffstrasse and perhaps 'forget' to declare when clearing customs. Alledgedly.

 

[Brooothru]

Vigorous fermentation was mentioned, which I think again comes as an opposition to the idea that cold fermentation is optimal for lager beer. What I implicitly read, maybe mistakenly, is that a warmer fermentation creates a more vigorous production of CO2 which in turn helps the elimination of certain unwanted compounds.

Basically too cold a fermentation stresses the yeast, creates by-products which then require lagering. Ferment more vigorously (which means higher pitch but maybe also higher temperature) and enjoy a cleaner product.

Other practices in our homebrewing world can help to avoid certain off-flavour: less DMS produced by the grains to begin with, and a faster cooling after the boiling. That might also apply to the commercial world: problems might be created in the malting room or in the kettle which are then solved by lagering, but they might be avoided rather than solved, that's the suggestion of the paper.

Very good points.

 

[DuncB]

Springfest in Stuttgart is pretty damm good.