Lagering is useless

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Now that you mention it, I have been comfortably warm in Dusseldorf in the summer and quite cold in Munich in the winter. Stateside I've also experienced heat fatigue in Brunswick, Maine, on a 104F day (no air conditioning) and can't remember a time when I felt colder in my life than walking across the flight line at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas, the day after a Blue Norther had blown through. I should follow my own advice that general assumptions should be left for assumptive generals.

LOL Sorry I couldn't help but write that comment after seeing Munich climate compared to Texas's (though I admit never been there myself, nor anywhere else in the States unfortunately)...I've been living near Munich 4 years and froze my *** often enough during winters (and more than once during late springs or even summers too).

 

[eric19312]

With this definition any homebrewer that puts a recently filled keg into the keezer/fridge is lagering because the chance that all yeast has been removed when transferred to the keg is zero. IMHO.

Exactly. Nobody on the homebrew scale is making Lager that is not lagered. How long the beer is lagered will differ from brewer to brewer but they are all lagered.

 

[DuncB]

Fire in the hold

If lagering is storage then all beer is lager unless it's raw ale?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Fire in the hold

If lagering is storage then all beer is lager unless it's raw ale?

But lagering implies extended cold storage.

 

[Broothru]

LOL Sorry I couldn't help but write that comment after seeing Munich climate compared to Texas's (though I admit never been there myself, nor anywhere else in the States unfortunately)...I've been living near Munich 4 years and froze my *** often enough during winters (and more than once during late springs or even summers too).

You truly live in one of the more beautiful places on Earth in Southern Germany. I miss the many trips I used to take there.

 

[cmac62]

But lagering implies extended cold storage.

Again the term "extended" need to be clarified. my kegs can last months in the kegerator and usually they sit in a beer fridge for a month or so before there is a spot. So all of "my" beers get some degree of lagering before they even get into the keezer. I guess it doesn't really matter, lagering is a way to age a beer that is better for the beer than to sit at room temp for that month before a spot is open.

 

[Birrofilo]

The conclusions of the study do push clearly in the direction of usefulness of lagering for a well-conducted fermentation.

<<
The present paper has not focused on volatile sub-
stances; however, it is amply documented that the key entities
such as the esters, sulphur containing molecules, vicinal diketones
and carbonyl substances (such as acetaldehyde) should be con-
trollable by competent fermentation and upstream process prac-
tices (18). For example, there are those that say that lagering is
necessary to remove an undesirable sulphidic character, e.g. that
arising from hydrogen sulphide. However ensuring vigorous fer-
mentation causes this substance to be purged with the fermenta-
tion gases (19). In just the same way entities like diacetyl (6) and
acetaldeyde (18) can be eliminated in the fermenter and without
recourse to lengthy storage periods.
[...]
The present authors contend that, whilst there may be a need
for some brewers to address matters like diacetyl, hydrogen
sulphide, acetaldehyde and perhaps a few other volatile sub-
stances post primary fermentation, it is simply a reflection of them
not having sought to deal with them earlier, or dealt with them
successfully.
>>

Even thought the study did not focus on those volatile substances that lagering is supposed to cure, they clearly state that those are the result of a manufacturing fault, and that lagering would serve as a late remedy to an early mistake. Their case against lagering is therefore not weakened by them not having taken volatile nasties into account, because if those are dealth with effectively during production, then lagering would actually end up being "useless".

They let an open door on the evaluation of possible effects on aging on certain substances such as polyphenols, for the study of which they advocate a future organoleptic analysis.

My personal take on this is that, although very interesting and something I suspected since years, a quantitative or laboratory analysis is nothing more than "interesting", and it becomes a breakthrough in brewing science only when, and if, is it validated by a serious organoleptic analysis. Just like no equation can describe the flight of a butterfly, so no chemical analysis can describe the taste of a beer IMO. Ultimately the proof always is in the pudding.

 

[DuncB]

Well I'm keeping the English ale at Cellar temp of 12 celsius, it still seems to ferment very slowly and change during the time it is being drunk. I think the dry hopping set off some hop creep.

 

[Broothru]

The conclusions of the study do push clearly in the direction of usefulness of lagering for a well-conducted fermentation.

<<
The present paper has not focused on volatile sub-
stances; however, it is amply documented that the key entities
such as the esters, sulphur containing molecules, vicinal diketones
and carbonyl substances (such as acetaldehyde) should be con-
trollable by competent fermentation and upstream process prac-
tices (18). For example, there are those that say that lagering is
necessary to remove an undesirable sulphidic character, e.g. that
arising from hydrogen sulphide. However ensuring vigorous fer-
mentation causes this substance to be purged with the fermenta-
tion gases (19). In just the same way entities like diacetyl (6) and
acetaldeyde (18) can be eliminated in the fermenter and without
recourse to lengthy storage periods.
[...]
The present authors contend that, whilst there may be a need
for some brewers to address matters like diacetyl, hydrogen
sulphide, acetaldehyde and perhaps a few other volatile sub-
stances post primary fermentation, it is simply a reflection of them
not having sought to deal with them earlier, or dealt with them
successfully.
>>

Even thought the study did not focus on those volatile substances that lagering is supposed to cure, they clearly state that those are the result of a manufacturing fault, and that lagering would serve as a late remedy to an early mistake. Their case against lagering is therefore not weakened by them not having taken volatile nasties into account, because if those are dealth with effectively during production, then lagering would actually end up being "useless".

They let an open door on the evaluation of possible effects on aging on certain substances such as polyphenols, for the study of which they advocate a future organoleptic analysis.

My personal take on this is that, although very interesting and something I suspected since years, a quantitative or laboratory analysis is nothing more than "interesting", and it becomes a breakthrough in brewing science only when, and if, is it validated by a serious organoleptic analysis. Just like no equation can describe the flight of a butterfly, so no chemical analysis can describe the taste of a beer IMO. Ultimately the proof always is in the pudding.

Spot on analysis and inference of what was being suggested between the lines. What is not specifically addressed in the narrative are just what the "upstream steps" in fermentation are, or could be, in eliminating VDKs and other assorted culprits. I assume the usual targets are yeast health and proper temperature control. Obviously sanitation and other normal procedures are assumed. What are some other considerations for preventing undesirable outcomes before they happen?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

You truly live in one of the more beautiful places on Earth in Southern Germany. I miss the many trips I used to take there.

I think I spelled incorrectly, I used to live there betwewn 2010-2014, at the very foot of Weihenstephaner hill . Currently living near Bern, Switzerland, which enjoys an ever so slightly warmer climate (but unfortunately waaaay less quality beer, at least from the macros...luckily there is a booming craft beer scene here as well)

 

[Birrofilo]

Obviously sanitation and other normal procedures are assumed. What are some other considerations for preventing undesirable outcomes before they happen?

Vigorous fermentation was mentioned, which I think again comes as an opposition to the idea that cold fermentation is optimal for lager beer. What I implicitly read, maybe mistakenly, is that a warmer fermentation creates a more vigorous production of CO2 which in turn helps the elimination of certain unwanted compounds.

Basically too cold a fermentation stresses the yeast, creates by-products which then require lagering. Ferment more vigorously (which means higher pitch but maybe also higher temperature) and enjoy a cleaner product.

Other practices in our homebrewing world can help to avoid certain off-flavour: less DMS produced by the grains to begin with, and a faster cooling after the boiling. That might also apply to the commercial world: problems might be created in the malting room or in the kettle which are then solved by lagering, but they might be avoided rather than solved, that's the suggestion of the paper.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A 1977 study which sounds a lot like the one being discussed here:

Conclusion

On the evidence of these trials, a long period of storage after primary fermentation should not be necessary to confer improved beer quality. It seems more likely from these and earlier trials, taken in conjunction with evidence in the literature on the effects of storage on beer quality, that the aim should be to improve the control of malts and of process conditions. In this way a beer at the end of primary fermentation should be in a state which does not require extended storage to rectify undesirable qualities which have arisen earlier in the process.

https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1975.tb03785.x

 

[Broothru]

I think I spelled incorrectly, I used to live there betwewn 2010-2014, at the very foot of Weihenstephaner hill . Currently living near Bern, Switzerland, which enjoys an ever so slightly warmer climate (but unfortunately waaaay less quality beer, at least from the macros...luckily there is a booming craft beer scene here as well)

If there's one place I enjoyed more than Germany, it would be Switzerland. I never made it to Bern, but I frequently traveled to Zurich and less often to Geneva. I never made it to Munich during Oktoberfest (preferred Munich less crowded and more, well, .... German). I did happen to be in Zurich one year during their celebration of Oktoberfest, at the park near the lake shore, and found it to be much more tame than what my daughter described as "Fest in Munchen" (she and her husband left Munich mid-visit during Fest to go to Prague; Munich was too frenetic even for their Gen-X hipster lifestyle).

I certainly agree with your evaluation of Swiss beer. It's good, not great, and compares favorably with the U.S. domestic beers I grew up on. But none come close to the beers you find everywhere in Germany.

 

[cgoldberg3]

I certainly agree with your evaluation of Swiss beer. It's good, not great, and compares favorably with the U.S. domestic beers I grew up on. But none come close to the beers you find everywhere in Germany.

Yes but their chocolate...

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

If there's one place I enjoyed more than Germany, it would be Switzerland. I never made it to Bern, but I frequently traveled to Zurich and less often to Geneva. I never made it to Munich during Oktoberfest (preferred Munich less crowded and more, well, .... German). I did happen to be in Zurich one year during their celebration of Oktoberfest, at the park near the lake shore, and found it to be much more tame than what my daughter described as "Fest in Munchen" (she and her husband left Munich mid-visit during Fest to go to Prague; Munich was too frenetic even for their Gen-X hipster lifestyle).

I certainly agree with your evaluation of Swiss beer. It's good, not great, and compares favorably with the U.S. domestic beers I grew up on. But none come close to the beers you find everywhere in Germany.

Seems you travelled a lot!
Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of Munich Oktoberfest either... the only positive is that you get to meet and talk to (drunk and less drunk) people from all over the world, which can be fun in its own right. But I much preferred the smaller Volksfests in nearby towns, such as the one where I lived in Freising... Basically the same beer and atmosphere, but waaay less crowded, much more relaxed and also more authentic...and about half the prices!

 

[Immocles]

Nottingham Ale yeast will ferment down to 50-52 degrees F. and is said (where here I must inject that I've never tried this) to make a decent "lager" beer thereby (with perhaps a hint of peach???). Many attribute this to a rumor that Nottingham is a blend of strains, but I'm fairly certain that Lalemand will tell you it is a single strain.

Notty is my go-to for pseudo/quick lagers. Far from an expert with it, but I ferment it at 54 and never pick up any peachiness. I've heard folks mention it, but I've yet to pick it up *myself*. I've always been curious myself how much of a true ale yeast it is as well. Another anomaly to me is how poorly WLP029 ferments at low temperatures, yet being way more 'lagerish' than its kolsch counterparts.

 

[InspectorJon]

You truly live in one of the more beautiful places on Earth in Southern Germany. I miss the many trips I used to take there.

My opinion of Southern Germany agrees with @Brooothru. I think this may say something about this thread. I live in Northern California in the Sierra Nevada foothills. I pulled off the highway at a vista point one time and happened to meet a man from Southern Germany. We were looking out at a view of tree covered ridge tops stretching perhaps 50 miles to the north. None of the rugged, rocky Sierra Mountain peeks, just miles of trees as far as one could see.

I asked the man why he was here in Northern California. He said he was here to see nature. He said that this view was perhaps the most beautiful place he had ever seen. I was used to it and thought it was nice but not all that impressive. Just a lot of trees and ridges. I had been in the South German Alps as well as Austria and Northern Italy six months earlier. That was one of, if not the most beautiful place I had ever seen and this view held no comparison.

I suspect an objective scientific study might prove Southern Germany is more beautiful than the Sierra Foothills but my friend from Southern Germany would not have been convinced. It is all so influenced by our personal experience.

 

[Broothru]

Yes but their chocolate...

Oh yes, the chocolates, not to mention the Cuban cigars, I'm told, one could purchase at the Davidoff's shop on the Banhoffstrasse and perhaps 'forget' to declare when clearing customs. Alledgedly.

 

[Broothru]

Vigorous fermentation was mentioned, which I think again comes as an opposition to the idea that cold fermentation is optimal for lager beer. What I implicitly read, maybe mistakenly, is that a warmer fermentation creates a more vigorous production of CO2 which in turn helps the elimination of certain unwanted compounds.

Basically too cold a fermentation stresses the yeast, creates by-products which then require lagering. Ferment more vigorously (which means higher pitch but maybe also higher temperature) and enjoy a cleaner product.

Other practices in our homebrewing world can help to avoid certain off-flavour: less DMS produced by the grains to begin with, and a faster cooling after the boiling. That might also apply to the commercial world: problems might be created in the malting room or in the kettle which are then solved by lagering, but they might be avoided rather than solved, that's the suggestion of the paper.

Very good points.

 

[DuncB]

Springfest in Stuttgart is pretty damm good.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Oh yes, the chocolates, not to mention the Cuban cigars, I'm told, one could purchase at the Davidoff's shop on the Banhoffstrasse and perhaps 'forget' to declare when clearing customs. Alledgedly.

Chocolates, alright, but didn't know my country was famous for Cuban cigars too...

 

[Broothru]

Chocolates, alright, but didn't know my country was famous for Cuban cigars too...

Mine is famous for confiscating them (not the chocolates) at the border.

 

[soccerdad]

..... I could smell the waitress coming to my table the stench of diacetyl emanating from the beer she was carryng was so bad......

Last time I sniffed a Fraulein in a German brewpub, she kicked me in the teeth.

 

[Birrofilo]

I have a nice recollection of a German "Fest" in Munich in my teen years. It was bloody hot and it was probably August. We as a family were visiting Germany (as we normally did in those years) with the caravan. We decided to go to this "Fest" that had been organized in Munich and I think it had to do with an anniversary of the Stadium, the beautiful stadium which was built for the Football World Championship in 1974, and that I am afraid doesn't exist any more, with its beautiful "sails" covering it. It must have been between 1980 and 1985, so maybe the tenth anniversary.

I remember those quite Junonic woman bringing absurd amounts of 1-litre glasses on each arm. That would have been the subject of some verses by Homer, Virgil or Tasso. We two male children got 1 glass each. It was the first time in my life (and probably the last) I had a 1-litre glass in my hand. The beer was fresh, very light, refreshing, thirst-quenching, and delicious beyond belief. Both I and my brother were surprised on how easily it went down the tube (MUCH easier and faster than water really).

After that, we went to the "lady" (more resembling a night-club bouncer, truth be told) to give back the glasses, but she told us that we could keep them, we asked "how much" and she told us "nothing, it's all done" (the deposit was paid in advance, so we could keep the glasses, they were paid). We couldn't believe the small price for 2 litres included the glasses.

We were slightly sleepy for an hour that extremely hot afternoon thereafter: beer or hot weather? Who cares!

From that experience I got two long-lasting impressions:

a) German draught beer is absorbed by your body as if water was the imitation of a really refreshing drink;

b) In Munich, ANY excuse is good for laying long tables of beer drinkers outdoor. There were probably two more "Fests" happening that very same day in Munich. Oktoberfest is just for tourists. "Fests" are everywhere everytime. The 20th anniversary of a nice building in town? Let's make a beef festival.

One cannot help loving those guys!

The two glasses are still there in my kitchen as a recollection of that day.

 

[bwible]

I was in the Uncle Sam Travel Agency, otherwise known as the US Navy and I’ve been to quite a number of places around the world. Never been to Germany. Would love to someday.

I currently use Wyeast 1099 to make my pseudo-lagers. Its listed on Wyeasts site as recommended for Blonde Ale. I aged that cold and after a few weeks it was very lager-like. After the Blonde Ale/pseudo-lager I can re-use that to make bitter.

I made one pseudo-lager prior to that with 1968 and it was not bad either after a few weeks of cold aging.

As obvious as 1056 would seem, I have not tried that one yet. It’s funny - Cream Ale appears on Wyeast’s site in the styles under 1056, but not Blonde Ale?

 

[bwible]

If you used ale yeast, will it actually count as lagering?

The German word “lager” simply means “to store.” If you make what we-call pseudo-lager by fermenting a lager recipe with a clean ale yeast on the low end of the yeast’s temp range then store that cold, then by definintion you are lagering.

I still call mine a blonde ale or a psuedo-lager though. To me, a beer that is not made with a real lager yeast should not be called a lager. That’s by style definition.

Good pseudo-lagers can be really enjoyable, but I think just not quite the same.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Good pseudo-lagers can be really enjoyable, but I think just not quite the same.

How many of those who ribboned in the Czech Lager categories while using WLP-800 will be asked to send back their ribbons (past, present, and future)?

 

[Barbarossa]

Not my idea to stir the pot, but I'm kind of new and try to make sense of all this.

Isn't "storing" an ale at low temp more like conditioning? It will end up different but not lagered?

I thought that the lagering was to allow the yeast to slowly transform the beer at low temp, and that you need a special yeast to do that since ale yeast will list likely fall asleep at 35f.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Of the 80 potentially flavor related chemical markers monitored throughout lagering via NMR within the referenced peer reviewed dissertation text, none of them were deemed to be altered via lagering to any statistically meaningful degree.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

b) In Munich, ANY excuse is good for laying long tables of beer drinkers outdoor.

You are probably referring to what they call "Münchner Biergartenkultur". I miss that culture a lot... especially now with the first really gorgeous spring days kicking off (not that anything would be happening right now in Munich, due to Covid...).
But in a normal time, at the first signs of somewhat warmer sun rays, be it late winter or early spring, tables are out and beer is flowing. You do not even need an excuse to celebrate something for that to happen.

Oktoberfest is just for tourists.

Actually, I was surprised to discover that locals were still fond of Munich Oktoberfest (granted, not all of them...).
Most tried to go during week days, when crowds were a little less crazy... I too was expecting they would dismiss it as a tourist attraction, just as they dismissed the main Hofbräuhaus in the city centre. But apparently that was not the case. I guess it is something just too deeply rooted in their culture ;-)