Lagering is useless

[Vale71]

One interesting fact that emeges from the study though is the aspect of yeast autolysis. Autolysis is clearly detected but already at the end of fermentation. It then does not increase either in the filtered (as would be expected) or in the unfiltered beer. Keep in mind that the unfiltered beer was still removed from the bulk of the yeast by transferring from the fermenter to kegs. This show that even at a small scale (127 lite batch) autolysis is indeed a factor, with temperature being very effective at preventing further autolysis after primary. The unfiltered beer was stored at near freezing temperature whereas fermentation was conducted at temperatures as high as 15°C.

 

[Vale71]

It looks like roughly 80 flavor related markers (substances) were tracked via NMR for this study. Not just a couple.

Only non-volatiles. Volatile substances have a much greater impact on flavor and aroma perception as they can actually get to your nose without you having to inhale the beer which would be rather unpleasant.

 

[eric19312]

A couple thoughts this morning...

According to the definition used by the authors of this paper it would seem virtually all unfiltered kegged homebrew could be considered to have been lagered for some period of time. Doesn't make them all lagers but they have all been lagered.

My take on the authors interpretation of the results is that while lagering may have been historically useful for for cleaning up flaws in beer, current brewing practices are capable of eliminating those flaws during mash and fermentation. Improvements in ingredients and processes have reached point where it is possible to brew beer that simply does not have the flavor or aroma defects. Once the beer has reached the point of "cleanness" there is nothing left for the lagering process to "clean" and so it has no impact on defects that aren't there.

But I think it also says that for homebrewers and craft brewers who perhaps don't have same level of control over the ingredients or the process, lagering might still provide a useful safety net.

 

[TheMadKing]

That's not even what this study proves. VDKs and acetaldehyde were not even measured as part of the study. Their reduction was just assumed a priori. The study only measured the effects of yeast's metabolism on some clasees of non-volatile substances and showed that at lagering temperature there is no effect, as proven by the two test beers (one with yeast removed before lagering, one at the end of lagering) being identical in that respect. In a sense both beers were still lagered, just under different conditions.

It looks like roughly 80 flavor related markers (substances) were tracked via NMR for this study. Not just a couple. One might presume that they chose these 80 for good reason.

You're right I apologize, I should have read the article completely. Vale I think your categorization of the substances as non-volatile is still too broad since he is specifically looking at the impact of yeast metabolites during lagering, not all non-volatile substances are metabolically active, yet may still have a flavor impact (such as polyphenols and some other hop derived compounds). So Silver, I think it might be more accurate to say

"The full scope of the flavor effects due to lagering are unknown, however it is not a process affected by yeast metabolism, assuming you have eliminated sulfur compounds, VDK's and acetaldehyde via your primary fermentation regime"

rather than "lagering is useless" (which I recognize as being an attention grabbing title, so bravo to that).

 

[bkboiler]

I would say the most RELEVANT study would be to have a trained panel of sensory homebrewers taste pre-lagered and post-lagered beer, NOT BLIND.
All my tastings of my own beer are not blind...I know what I did.
Usually if I have to cut corners, I beat myself up about it and think I can tell the difference. It's just who I am.
Lager I will.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Posts #33 and #34 are pretty much hitting the nail on the head.

 

[eric19312]

I would say the most RELEVANT study would be to have a trained panel of sensory homebrewers taste pre-lagered and post-lagered beer, NOT BLIND.
All my tastings of my own beer are not blind...I know what I did.
Usually if I have to cut corners, I beat myself up about it and think I can tell the difference. It's just who I am.
Lager I will.

I think you are supposed to use green font here.

 

[Stand]

It seems to me like lagering might be insurance. Much like the advice the 1-2-3 rule for homebrewing. Sounds neat, but at the end of the day the beer is done when it's done in both cases. Pascal's Wager

 

[bkboiler]

I think you are supposed to use green font here.

I'm pretty sure this is a direct quotation, "Always two there are. No more, no less. An ale and a lager. Patience, my young padawan."

 

[Mutant]

I would like the same study to be done with the entire stages needed to make a great Eisbock to say lagering has no bearing.

 

[Caleb Miller]

"No substantive changes were observed, leading to the conclusion that, once materials such as vicinal diketones and acetaldehyde have been dealt with, there is no merit in the prolonged storage of beer.

The study admits that VDKs and acetaldehyde are dealt with by lagering from the get-go. This whole thread is because someone can't, or won't, read.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Did you forget to read this part?

The simple reality is that all of these requirements can be achieved without prolonged beer storage, as was mentioned in the introduction to this paper.

Or this part?

Two of the key volatile substances that historically were removed in lagering are the vicinal diketones (6) and acetaldehyde (7). However, the scientific understanding of the origins and control of these substances is now thoroughly appreciated. Vicinaldiketones can be dealt with effectively by careful attention to primary fermentation conditions, and even for those insistent that more needs to be done, there is a range of options to accelerate the removal of these molecules (8). Effective removal of acetaldehyde is even more straightforward.

 

[Caleb Miller]

So, if you get EVERYTHING else perfect, VDKS and Acetaldehyde are dealt with before lagering.

Neato, I wonder what percentage of people get 100% right before fermentation is complete.

 

[Broothru]

Traditionally, the earth was the center of the universe, and the sun and planets revolved around the earth (which was flat).

Wait...WHAT??!!??

You mean it's not?

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

I'm pretty sure this is a direct quotation, "Always two there are. No more, no less. An ale and a lager. Patience, my young padawan."

 

[eric19312]

So, if you get EVERYTHING else perfect, VDKS and Acetaldehyde are dealt with before lagering.

Neato, I wonder what percentage of people get 100% right before fermentation is complete.

I don't think the statement is directed at homebrewers. Commercial brewing supported by strong quality control unit I would expect this capability would be pretty common.

 

[lagermanted]

This is why scientist do not brew world class beer, a brewers with a background in science can. Data can be interrupted many ways and miss the most important part. In the late 60's dad rented our house to a Boeing engineer and we moved. It had an irrigation system and he explained the "how to" of the watering system. Turn it on 3 times a week for so long. The engineer got out his slide rule and calculated the water time for 1 month and flooded the down hill neighbor. His data was correct. I would come to the conclusion that they did not follow the correct 80 flavors. This is a great starting pint for the next 80 flavors.

As an accountant to a businessman, I would proposed making ales. Sitting around while millions of dollars sit around in storage tanks. There is a lot of pressure financially to drop lagering times for profitability. This does make sense, till you taste the outcome.

As a brewer my take is the report is probably correct BUT follow your taste buds. With that said, my German style lagers all taste better on the 3rd month. Many of my lager friends will not open a keg till month 5. I just talked with one of my pro brewer hop clients he told me his Pilsners get better longer and the 5th month is so sexy he has to drink them. The homebrewer of the year in San Diego a few years back won with a classic German rauchbier that was over 1 year in lagering. We are friends and both Grand Master beer judges, he told me the beer kept getting better with time.

I taste it beers that I lager, the beer has all the same flavors after you get rid of the simply issues but the flavors meld together and the beer softens and looses the edges. Hop flavors morph, diminish, came back stronger and sometimes fade away. The young lagers are akin to a teenager that just grew 18", all elbows and knees. Give them a little more time and they are no longer awkward. In search of the perfect pint, you will never find a definitive qualifier on what is needed. It is just pure math where 1 + 1 makes 3, sometimes 4 and better 5. Science can not tell us the secrete sauce to make a great beer better, but we can taste it when we do. It is good to see that they are seeking how to make beer better, but as home brewers we all ready know that the yeast doesn't do much after the first month, and not a lot then when you drop the temp to near freezing.

Tonight I will celebrate brewing beyond my drinking ability with a 12 year old barley wine!

 

[Beermeister32]

As a brewer my take is the report is probably correct BUT follow your taste buds. With that said, my German style lagers all taste better on the 3rd month. Many of my lager friends will not open a keg till month 5. I just talked with one of my pro brewer hop clients he told me his Pilsners get better longer and the 5th month is so sexy he has to drink them. The homebrewer of the year in San Diego a few years back won with a classic German rauchbier that was over 1 year in lagering. We are friends and both Grand Master beer judges, he told me the beer kept getting better with time.

I would agree with this, 3 months on Pilsners. Heavier Märzen / Oktoberfest I like 6 months. I’ve had batches that I’ve drank earlier, they just improve greatly by the end of the batch, then it’s all gone!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My home brewed ales stored at anywhere from cellar to room temperature taste better (more often than not) at 3 months than when fresh.

 

[Snuffy]

I, for one, will continue to lager regardless.
Some amount of post fermentation cold conditioning is obviously beneficial to the flavor of all beers and more importantly because I enjoy taking part in the tradition.

This would possibly qualify as one of the easiest conclusions to test in a HB situation. Brew a lager. Lager some. Don't lager some. Perform taste tests on both batches at different points in time.
I think the most interesting thing to investigate is if the perceived benefits of lagering are truly related to temperature or simply the normal improvement of flavors that can be experienced from standard room temp aging.

**That's so easy somebody has done it. Think I will search for the exbeeriment...

https://brulosophy.com/2018/12/17/the-lager-effect-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/l...al-vs-quick-fermentation-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Barbarossa]

Can someone explain to me if there's a difference between conditioning at low temperature and lagering at low temperature? I got confused after reading this thread.

If you used ale yeast, will it actually count as lagering? I thought that it would be more like conditioning, which I assumed should happen at higher temperature so that the yeast don't fall asleep. Is there a benefit other than cold crashing, to put a keg in the keezer at 35f?

I just did a German ale 1007 fermented at 68f and the keg ended up in the keezer. I still can't figure out the outcome other than I can plug it in CO2 and let it crash.

 

[Beermeister32]

You can lager (age, cold condition) both ales and lagers. The language can be confusing because we use the German word "lager" (storage) to describe both the cold storage conditioning and the product typically produced this way. Keep in mind though, lager yeast strains are a relatively new discovery. Most of your medieval beers were ales which they lagered in caves packed with ice and straw so they remained cold all year long. Specific lager strains were isolated later and were better suited to performing in colder temperatures.

I've even read that on some early batches, the brewers didn't really know if they would get a lager or an ale out of a batch. The pitch was likely a mixture of all sorts of yeasts. When the fermentation was done and the weather was cold, the ale yeasts were suppressed, but the lager yeast in the pitch would take off, so cold weather produced cleaner lagers. If it was warmer, the ale yeasts dominated and they would end up producing an ale. If the weather was hot they wouldn't brew, there were laws against Summer brewing in Germany. Most all were lagered - not just for taste, but to extend the beer supply all year long... Prost!

 

[Broothru]

You can lager (age, cold condition) both ales and lagers. The language can be confusing because we use the German word "lager" (storage) to describe both the cold storage conditioning and the product typically produced this way. Keep in mind though, lager yeast strains are a relatively new discovery. Most of your medieval beers were ales which they lagered in caves packed with ice and straw so they remained cold all year long. Specific lager strains were isolated later and were better suited to performing in colder temperatures.

I've even read that on some early batches, the brewers didn't really know if they would get a lager or an ale out of a batch. The pitch was likely a mixture of all sorts of yeasts. When the fermentation was done and the weather was cold, the ale yeasts were suppressed, but the lager yeast in the pitch would take off, so cold weather produced cleaner lagers. If it was warmer, the ale yeasts dominated and they would end up producing an ale. If the weather was hot they wouldn't brew, there were laws against Summer brewing in Germany. Most all were lagered - not just for taste, but to extend the beer supply all year long... Prost!

Not to mention that the yeast morph and mutate over time. Is s. pastorianus (lager yeast) an evolutionary off-spring of s.cereviase (ale yeast)? Did ale yeasts travel from sub-equatorial regions through the Balkin states (i.e., "Bohemia") into Germany where centuries of long, cold storage (lagering) caused the yeast to mutate into a completely different beast (bottom fermenter)? Many microbiologists believe this is exactly what happened. Some genetic science as well as more recent gene sequencing has shown that a popular 'lager' yeast, WLP-838, is in fact s. cereviase and NOT s. pastorianus. The popular "Southern German Lager" yeast is in reality "Southern German Ale" yeast. After hundreds of years it didn't become a true lager, but it did adapt to cold temperature fermentation. Who knew?

Likewise, the famous ales of Northern Germany, the Alts in Dusseldorf and the Koelsches of Koln, have evolved into hybrids that ferment at mid-range temperatures for shorter periods of time without longterm storage, yet exhibit lager-like characteristics, even though they are true top-cropping ales. Now granted the climate in Dusseldorf is cooler than Munich, much like the difference between Detroit and Houston in the U.S. In fact the term "Alt Bier" differentiates the "old" style of brewing with the more "modern" beers brewed in Bavaria and stored in underground caves during the summer months. The Reinheitsgebot (German purity laws of 1513) dictated the prohibition of brewing during summer months, thus the necessity for underground storage of 'stockpiled' beer for the summer. They were strictly observed and enforced in the South, but not so much in the North. Thus, the Old Style (Alt) in Koln and Dusseldorf, and the New Style (lagers, pils) in Munich and Bavaria.

It's a chicken/egg conundrum. Did different yeasts develop into different styles of beer or did different styles of fermentation cause an adaptation into different types of yeasts? Either way, both have become delightful and enjoyable beverages that I have had the extremely good fortune to have experienced numerous times in their native settings during my life of travels. The journey continues.

 

[VikeMan]

Not to mention that the yeast morph and mutate over time. Is s. pastorianus (lager yeast) an evolutionary off-spring of s.cereviase (ale yeast)?

S. pastoranius was the result of a rare hybridization event between S. cerevisiae and another Saccharomyces species, probably S. eubayanus.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Nottingham Ale yeast will ferment down to 50-52 degrees F. and is said (where here I must inject that I've never tried this) to make a decent "lager" beer thereby (with perhaps a hint of peach???). Many attribute this to a rumor that Nottingham is a blend of strains, but I'm fairly certain that Lalemand will tell you it is a single strain.

WLP-800 is marketed as an Urquell 'lager' strain, but genetics have revealed that it is Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

My personal thinking (opinion) is that if it ferments decently at 50-52 degrees F., who cares which strain it is.

But clearly cold fermentation and subsequent cold storage should be completely separate issues. And (again, in my opinion) only cold storage is "lagering". Cold fermentation is via this line of thinking incorrectly named. And so is Lager beer that is not cold stored. It's a terminology quagmire.

 

[eric19312]

The authors of the linked peer reviewed paper had no issue differentiating between lagered beer and cold stored beer. Lagering was in the presence of yeast and done cold but a bit above 0C. Cold storage referred to beer that had been filtered to remove all yeast and then stored at slightly below 0C.

What the terms mean historically is not really relevant for understanding the experiment being discussed.

 

[Broothru]

The authors of the linked peer reviewed paper had no issue differentiating between lagered beer and cold stored beer. Lagering was in the presence of yeast and done cold but a bit above 0C. Cold storage referred to beer that had been filtered to remove all yeast and then stored at slightly below 0C.

What the terms mean historically is not really relevant for understanding the experiment being discussed.

Yeah, but were they German?

From what little I can recall from my college German, linguistically the context of the verb "lagern" implies "cold storage" (literally, the English infinitive "to store") and only connects peripherally to the noun "bier" except in the adjectival form of "lagered beer."

Of course those memories are more than half a century old, but I clearly remember:

"Ich muss ein Bier haben." Usually immediately following one of Frau Schmidt's exams.

 

[cmac62]

The authors of the linked peer reviewed paper had no issue differentiating between lagered beer and cold stored beer. Lagering was in the presence of yeast and done cold but a bit above 0C. Cold storage referred to beer that had been filtered to remove all yeast and then stored at slightly below 0C.

What the terms mean historically is not really relevant for understanding the experiment being discussed.

With this definition any homebrewer that puts a recently filled keg into the keezer/fridge is lagering because the chance that all yeast has been removed when transferred to the keg is zero. IMHO.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Now granted the climate in Dusseldorf is cooler than Munich, much like the difference between Detroit and Houston

Not wanting to be pedantic but the climate in Munich is actually, on average, slightly cooler than Dusseldorf 's. Especially the winters can be fairly cold in Bavaria... summers aren't exceptionally hot either.

 

[Broothru]

Not wanting to be pedantic but the climate in Munich is actually, on average, slightly cooler than Dusseldorf 's. Especially the winters can be fairly cold in Bavaria... summers aren't exceptionally hot either.

Now that you mention it, I have been comfortably warm in Dusseldorf in the summer and quite cold in Munich in the winter. Stateside I've also experienced heat fatigue in Brunswick, Maine, on a 104F day (no air conditioning) and can't remember a time when I felt colder in my life than walking across the flight line at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas, the day after a Blue Norther had blown through. I should follow my own advice that general assumptions should be left for assumptive generals.