Lager yeast question

[whoaru99]

I know of no such rule of thumb. If it exists, it represents the opinion of a tiny fraction of lager brewers.

Several references to a book by some fellow named Noonan. Whether he's a true authority or not I can't say, but he does appear to have several books published. There may be others but that came up quickly.

By your comment may I presume you have some authority to speak on behalf of a large contingent of lager brewers?

 

[dmtaylor]

Several references to a book by some fellow named Noonan. Whether he's a true authority or not I can't say, but he does appear to have several books published. There may be others but that came up quickly.

By your comment may I presume you have some authority to speak on behalf of a large contingent of lager brewers?

I have no authority. I just spend a huge chunk of my life on homebrewing forums, have done so for more than 20 years. This is the summation of my observations.

All I'm saying, honestly and realistically:

Noonan is dead (RIP), and most people don't read books anymore.

I myself could write a ton of books, but I'm too lazy and disorganized & random in my thoughts. Easier to quarterback from the armchair.

What I really mean is, brewers these days in 2024 are more exploratory and experimental. Some give credit to Brulosophy and their common conclusions that tasters could not tell the difference between X & Y, yadda yadda. And to some extent that is true. Regardless, IF there are actual rules of thumb in 2024, they differ broadly across a huge spectrum, and it depends who you ask. And so then, is it actually a "rule of thumb"? Ask 100 brewers for their opinions or their own rules of thumb about lagering, or any other topic, and although you might not get 100 different answers, you will get dozens of different ideas of what matters most vs. what doesn't matter much or at all. We're not all brewing the same way. We never will. Too many free thinkers and people trying to take shortcuts and finding out that hey, people are still buying the beer and apparently enjoying it anyway, so why overcomplicate things, or why not rush through a lager that might otherwise take 8 weeks to lager. 8 weeks!? Hardly anybody is doing that kind of stuff anymore. 20 years ago, YES, we were more rigid with things like this. Today?! Naw.

I mean no disrespect. Just being open and keeping it real in summarizing my honest impressions of how many folks brew things these days, compared to how many/most might have done a decade or two ago. Things are different. The craft is changing fast and it's not easy to keep up.

Cheers.

 

[Beermeister32]

I like lagering that long. Easy to do if running multiple kegs.

 

[Spivey24]

I lager as I drink the keg. I don’t mind the lagers a little green. They clean up as the keg goes down though.

What I don’t really understand and I’ve seen this many times now, is my observance of lagering while on tap vs just sitting in a keg. So I generally do 10 gallons batches of light colored German pilsners into 2 fermenters. Ferment at 52F then raise a little towards the end. After the tilts show no change for several days, I will start cold crashing and gelatin fining. After a couple of days I will package into 2 kegs, carb lightly, and let sit for a week. Then put one on tap and the other leave at 36F in the chest freezer. After a week on tap and drinking several beers off of it, it really is cleaned up. But the keg sitting won’t be cleaned up even after 3 weeks and will take a week on tap to fully clean. And when I say clean, I mean taste wise, and not clear. The only thing I can think of is the difference of being fully carbed, or maybe the action of pouring off settling particulars.

 

[fluketamer]

I lager as I drink the keg. I don’t mind the lagers a little green. They clean up as the keg goes down though.

 

[Bassman2003]

No doubt the brewing industry is changing fast. Even many German breweries have strayed from tradition practices. But that does not mean the traditional practices lose any kind of merit. As homebrewers, we do not need to act like commercial entities who feel like they have to alter what they want to do vs what they have to do for financial health. That is actually an advantage us homebrewers have. We can follow whatever best practice that was ever created. Or we can put cupcakes in the primary etc...

My only issue is when folks who have not done the research or have the experience start saying 'things don't matter...' Well, there is a lot of documentation of what does matter - to make the best beer. Being uninformed or lazy or just uninterested is not a defense.

Homebrewing has a lot of dogmatic practices built around convenience and ignorance. In comparison to research driven and time tested practices of large brewing operations. Things are improving with more exchanges of high level information from head brewers down to just access to the famous texts. I look at what I have been exposed to in my 22 years from brewing. I started with a bucket and dream and now do things totally differently.

I have found knowledge wins over convenience most of the time! But that is just me, and up to you the brewer to decide.

 

[fluketamer]

I like lagering that long. Easy to do if running multiple kegs.

yes on this. once i got my second minifridge

I like lagering that long. Easy to do if running multiple kegs.

this. once i got another kegerator i was able to brew more , keg more and now i cant keep up with the pipeline. so inevitably lager ends up sitting in the keg up to 60 days now and it definately does make a big difference.

 

[Bassman2003]

I lager my Belgian blondes for 4 weeks. I have learned not to waste anything before as some magic definitely takes place.

 

[whoaru99]

I have no authority. I just spend a huge chunk of my life on homebrewing forums, have done so for more than 20 years. This is the summation of my observations.

Fair enough. But, regardless whether you agree or not about it, I am surprised you have not at least seen it with that much time on forums.

I saw it here years ago and times since. I've not read Noonan's books either but cited that as at least some level of credibility rather than what might be sort of a circular reference to some other guy's posts on a forum.

 

[VikeMan]

From the last lager I did, and it's been a while, I seem to recall there was some sort of rule of thumb for recommended lagering time.

Don't quote this as gospel, but something like one or two weeks per 5 points of OG comes to mind.

Several references to a book by some fellow named Noonan.

I don't recall Noonan's rule of thumb for lagering time. I do "recall" a rule of thumb of 7/8ths of a day per (OG) gravity point. I recall it because I built it into BrewCipher. But it's been so long that I don't remember what people/things in addition to my experience at the time influenced that. At any rate, it's just an estimate to be tried in the absence of prior experience with a particular recipe/process.

Bigger beers have more stuff in them that needs to drop out of suspension than smaller beers. But even for two beers of the same gravity: grain bill, mash schedule, yeast strain, tannin levels, lagering temperature, and probably some things I'm forgetting influence the time needed to effectively clear the beer.

ETA: Lagering vessel configuration...i.e. the beer will clear faster in a shallow tank than in a tall one.

 

[fluketamer]

I lager as I drink the keg. I don’t mind the lagers a little green. They clean up as the keg goes down though.

i thought we all do this. i was always surprised when others say they lager for so long. how can you stare at a keg of beer that gets better by tthe day and not take a sip. i got smaller beer glasses for tastings so the keg lasts longer. .

 

[VikeMan]

i thought we all do this. i was always surprised when others say they lager for so long. how can you stare at a keg of beer that gets better by tthe day and not take a sip. i got smaller beer glasses for tastings so the keg lasts longer. .

Floating dip tubes can be a boon to impatient lagerers.

 

[fluketamer]

Floating dip tubes can be a boon to impatient lagerers.

i have put them in and out of my carts on several different online stores over the last few months. but havent pulled the trigger . its not the price which i have seen on sale for as low as 9 $. its the few threads i have seen on them drawing air or having issues. everything is running fine in the kegerator right now ( toi-toi-toi) and someitmes i just hate to upset that thing. she can be so sensitive. evertime im about to hti purchase i get that if it aint borke dont fix it feeling.

what brand you use and have you ever had issues with yours?

another aside. gelatin- omg gelatin. so much quicker clearing.

sorry thread jacking again. as usual

 

[hottpeper13]

I brew like I BBQ,low and slow. With 24 kegs and a 3 leg lagerator with CO2 it takes 4-6 weeks before a tap is open. On the other end of the spectrum is my friend who is new I think 1 or so years and is compiling equipment as he can. He has limited kegs and pressure ferments in them with a top draw and is drinking in less then a month. He brings them to thr pool and they are delicious.

 

[whoaru99]

i thought we all do this. i was always surprised when others say they lager for so long. how can you stare at a keg of beer that gets better by tthe day and not take a sip. i got smaller beer glasses for tastings so the keg lasts longer. .

I have plenty of other things I enjoy doing or drinking to keep me distracted. For me there is a bit of the anticipation factor too, like to open a gift.

The maibock I have going isn't going anywhere until May-ish.

 

[VikeMan]

what brand you use and have you ever had issues with yours?

I use Torpedo Keg Floating Buoy Dip Tubes. Once, I had the floating ball stick against the side of the keg, causing the keg to apparently "kick" even though it was still about half full. Since then, I've been hanging a stainless steel washer on the tube (i.e. running the tube through a stainless steel washer before attaching to the short liquid side dip, and have had no new issues.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

what brand you use and have you ever had issues with yours?

I had 5 floating dip tubes I bought at various times over the last couple of years, love them. I recently pulled the trigger on another 1/2 dozen off Alibaba for $20, delivered. Had to wait 2 weeks but they are no different then the ones I bought from the homebrew retailers and ebay, except the price.

Wish I could find floating dip tubes or something for sanke kegs. Would like to move away from the ball lock connectors and on to commercial connectors, just less failure points.

 

[kylewag]

Or we can put cupcakes in the primary etc...

LMAO! I loved that. This reminds me of something I said in a homebrewing Facebook group. A guy asked if it would be too weird to use Vienna Malt in a Pale Ale. I replied, "You are asking if using an actual brewing malt would be weird when people are mashing kid's cereal? WTF!"

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I've been hanging a stainless steel washer on the tube (i.e. running the tube through a stainless steel washer before attaching to the short liquid side dip, and have had no new issues.

Thank you! This a simple solution to the ball pickups spitting co2. I'll give it a try next batch.

I brew mostly lagers and lagering times can vary a lot depending on yeast strains, the health of the fermentation, style and gravity. I'm no slacker when it comes to these beers, at the risk of bragging, I have won 4 silvers medals for lagers in the last 3 years at NHC. So I pay close attention to the beers as they age and if a lager tastes great at 2 weeks, it will only get better as it lagers. 8 weeks from brew day seems to be the sweet spot for lighter lagers and most lagers 1.060 and under.

I love Keller beer, but as it clears the beer goes from wonderful to sublime in roughly 6-8weeks.

 

[jtgoral]

This works for me:
https://beerandbrewing.com/how-to-stop-worrying-and-lager/

 

[fluketamer]

Thank you! This a simple solution to the ball pickups spitting co2. I'll give it a try next batch.

I brew mostly lagers and lagering times can vary a lot depending on yeast strains, the health of the fermentation, style and gravity. I'm no slacker when it comes to these beers, at the risk of bragging, I have won 4 silvers medals for lagers in the last 3 years at NHC. So I pay close attention to the beers as they age and if a lager tastes great at 2 weeks, it will only get better as it lagers. 8 weeks from brew day seems to be the sweet spot for lighter lagers and most lagers 1.060 and under.

I love Keller beer, but as it clears the beer goes from wonderful to sublime in roughly 6-8weeks.

i had to look up keller beer.

there are so many variations of lager it seems like i always find a new one i havent heard of.

the image in wikipedia is pretty clear for a "cloudy" beer

i like the idea of embracing suspended yeast which is very unlager like where we usually want to get all the yeast out of the beer.

i had my frist hazy lager last weeak form sand city brewing in northport. it was opaque . i was pleasantly suprised.

 

[dmtaylor]

In my view, "kellerbier" isn't so much a "style" as it is a fanciful and often accepted excuse for allowing lager to be served young & green before it's really finished. I hear people saying that the extra yeast and/or protein lends a nice body and adds a pleasant character. I don't believe any of that. I've had some good kellerbiers but my bet is that the ones that taste great are because the lager was well made and will still get only better after another couple months of aging. Heh.... I see "kellerbier" on the sides of cans or bottles sometimes..... what a load of crap. As soon as that beer sits for a few months, it's just a regular lager. If it's still a little hazy or benefits from extra yeast or protein in suspension after that point... naw, come on. And any "kellerbier" that is anywhere close to resembling an opaquely hazy juicy NEIPA, at least in appearance, is a lame excuse for a poorly made lager where they either used way too much adjunct, way too many hops, or the wrong yeast, and passing it off as a "kellerbier" helps it to sell in some way. Maybe they'd be better off selling it as a noble NEIPA at that point.

[/oldmanyellsatcloud]

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, sorry to revive an old thread but I am pretty pumped. I am at the 3 week plus time frame, the keg has been lagering in my kegerator for about 2.5 weeks at about 35 or so degrees. I took a pint after the first week in the keg and it was really strong. Overpowering smell and taste of what I thought was lemon or something like that. Not bad, but certainly not what I was going for. I left it a week and took another small glass full. Seemed a bit more mellow, not as "in your face" with the smell and taste. I am now at almost week 3 and it tastes so much better. Very light, clear and very malty with a taste of lemon or something similar. I really like this beer. This could be one of those that you can drink on a summer afternoon as it is a light crisp beer. Thanks to all who gave me input during the process. This is definitely a keeper.