Lager vs Kveik: The Test

[DuncB]

Good to know!

Weyemann has them and this brand is widely available in Germany.

Now I'm thinking about a 100% rye beer.... Beta glucan rest is a must

Could consider beta glucan rest for say half the grain mill and then add the rest in later.
You don't want to lose the beta glucan fullness in the final product by mashing it away.
Having just made an imperial stout in my all in one with high proportion of different rye and wheat it was a challenge.
Fairly sure my crush on the rye was the perfect size to block all the holes in the bottom screen on my all in one mash pipe. I used double dose of glucanase as well, so it was physical issue rather than chemical disruption.
Lesson learnt and next time I'm crushing finer and mashing a good portion in a bag overnight in half the water then pulling it squeezing and sparging it with the rest of the mash water. Then I'll mash rest of grains as normal.
Can't seem to source any crystal rye here at the moment but found found Gladfield black forest rye malt which could be interesting in some beers.

 

[Protos]

If we're talking about a mash with a very high (>50%) Rye proportion, then even a very long Beta-Glucan rest wouldn't strip the beer of its fullness. I've tried pretty lengthy (up to 50 minutes) Beta-Glucan rests on my 75%-100% Rye beers, and even after performing those rests, plus Protein rests, the final beer still retained massive fullness and excessive slickiness. Performing B-Glucan and Protein rests in 100% Rye beer might bring some benefits for the ease of sparging (which isn't a major concern in BIAB brewing anyway) but had pretty insignificant effect on the final beer, surprisingly less prominent than in the beers with moderate (10%-25%) Rye content.

The only reliable way I found to make my Rye beers less viscous was adding sugar to the kettle. Employing low-temp mashing steps might help a bit but not nearly as much as I was expecting.

 

[DuncB]

@Protos

Thank you useful advice, maybe I'll just manage the particle size better and mash the rye in a bag next time.
I'm still fairly sure it was the rye that blocked up the holes in my mash pipe last brew, 15% wheat malts, 8 % oats and 4% rye malts. Not had problems in the past with that much wheat and oats and I found the malt pipe mesh plate blocked when I emptied it. Basically battled/ waited for hours with a stuck mash and stuck sparge but got there in the end.

 

[Protos]

I have no experience other than BIAB so can't offer any useful suggestions on why your mash pipe got blocked, but in my experience 4% Rye has a negligible impact on viscosity of the wort. At such a tiny proportion, Rye would boost a bit the mouthfeel of the finished beer, but would be practically unnoticeable during the sparging process. I can only speculate the culprit might have been just an unlucky crush size rather than your grain choise. Rather a physical than chemical issue - just what you've suggested above.

 

[amr]

Not sure if this is the right thread but did not know where else to put it. Brewed David Heath's Oktoberfest Marzen with dry Lutra. Let it ferment overnight (on Sunday) at 20c. I had a bit of trouble with temp control - was fluctuating between 19 and 21. In more than 12 hours - zero activity. Then managed to stabilize the temp at 21 and let it be for another 14 hours and still no activity.

Then decided to increase the temp to 26 and voila! Activity. Naturally, I was fairly happy but fast forward to now (approximately 16 hours after I first saw activity) and there is no more activity now. Holding temp at between 25 and 26.

I am not sure what I should do. I am unable to raise the temp more (my setup is a fridge which only cools and cannot heat, unfortunately - I live in India and the ambient here is usually 30+).

Here is what I was thinking:
1. Wait. Patience, as they say, is a virtue
2. Put more yeast (I put 5g dry lutra for a 10L batch) - make a starter perhaps?
3. Add some pressure (I just got the spundit 2.0 and I can try using it - the first time, though).


Any and all help would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[Miraculix]

Not sure if this is the right thread but did not know where else to put it. Brewed David Heath's Oktoberfest Marzen with dry Lutra. Let it ferment overnight (on Sunday) at 20c. I had a bit of trouble with temp control - was fluctuating between 19 and 21. In more than 12 hours - zero activity. Then managed to stabilize the temp at 21 and let it be for another 14 hours and still no activity.

Then decided to increase the temp to 26 and voila! Activity. Naturally, I was fairly happy but fast forward to now (approximately 16 hours after I first saw activity) and there is no more activity now. Holding temp at between 25 and 26.

I am not sure what I should do. I am unable to raise the temp more (my setup is a fridge which only cools and cannot heat, unfortunately - I live in India and the ambient here is usually 30+).

Here is what I was thinking:
1. Wait. Patience, as they say, is a virtue
2. Put more yeast (I put 5g dry lutra for a 10L batch) - make a starter perhaps?
3. Add some pressure (I just got the spundit 2.0 and I can try using it - the first time, though).


Any and all help would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

Wait and leave at room temp, whatever that is in your place.

 

[amr]

Wait and leave at room temp, whatever that is in your place.

Noted but if there is some fluctuation (1-2 degree), will it matter in terms of off flavours etc?

 

[Miraculix]

Noted but if there is some fluctuation (1-2 degree), will it matter in terms of off flavours etc?

No.

 

[amr]

No.

Alright super. Thank you. Will just wait then

 

[Zambezi Special]

It could have finished already, so gravity measurement would be nice.
Remember to correct the reading if you use a refractometer.

 

[Protos]

It could have finished already, so gravity measurement would be nice.

Absolutely.
The first thing to do when any doubts arise regarding the fermentation: C. Y. G. S. (Check Your Gravity, Stupid Sir)
It well might have been fermented already. Kveiks are notoriously fast fermenters.

 

[McMullan]

@amr, if you can manage all-grain brewing, repurposing an old fridge and connecting a cheap temperature controller should be a doddle. Then you can use lager yeast to make better lagers.

 

[amr]

It could have finished already, so gravity measurement would be nice.
Remember to correct the reading if you use a refractometer.

This, I do not believe, is likely since I see no Krausen at all and also no co2 has come out (I've connected the gas out post to a bottle with a carbonation cap). But I will check though. Thank you.

 

[amr]

@amr, if you can manage all-grain brewing, repurposing an old fridge and connecting a cheap temperature controller should be a doddle. Then you can use lager yeast to make better lagers.

I actually do use a fridge but the problem is that I don't have a heating element. Just cooling. And it works perfectly fine for normal lager and even ales given the fermentation temp is less than my usual ambient. This was a kveik and hence I'm having th unusual problem of having to go above room temperature. And also, lutra simply showed no activity at 20 which was what was suggested.

 

[Miraculix]

There was probably no real connection to the temperature. Most likely the yeast was somehow damaged on the way to you and the cell count was really low. Otherwise kveik really gets going in no time, even with severe under pitching.

But now that it's bubbling, just wait it out.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I tend to agree with the "it is likely done" suggestions. I have brewed several batches with Voss and a couple with Lutra. When severely underpitching Voss, I sometimes saw a lag of 12 to 24 hours, but once it got going it finished in another 24 hours. I have fermented Lutra in the 24C range, and it worked fast. I have also fermented Voss in the 18C range, and it still finished fermentation by day 4.

A 5g pitch of Lutra in a 10L batch seems like a pretty standard pitch rate. That makes me agree that maybe your yeast was not in the best condition to start. I have always had fast starts with dry Voss and Lutra and I tend to pitch at around that same rate (10g in a 20L batch).

I would check the gravity to verify the status, then give it a bit more time to wrap up and settle out.

 

[amr]

I tend to agree with the "it is likely done" suggestions. I have brewed several batches with Voss and a couple with Lutra. When severely underpitching Voss, I sometimes saw a lag of 12 to 24 hours, but once it got going it finished in another 24 hours. I have fermented Lutra in the 24C range, and it worked fast. I have also fermented Voss in the 18C range, and it still finished fermentation by day 4.

A 5g pitch of Lutra in a 10L batch seems like a pretty standard pitch rate. That makes me agree that maybe your yeast was not in the best condition to start. I have always had fast starts with dry Voss and Lutra and I tend to pitch at around that same rate (10g in a 20L batch).

I would check the gravity to verify the status, then give it a bit more time to wrap up and settle out.

I actually brewed a pale ale with Voss in my prev batch and that took off like a rocketship and got done in 3 days. This one had absolutely no activity at all as in zero krausen and the beer was super clear. So, I am leaning toward the fact that it was prob. damaged at some level. But thank you for that. I will check the gravity anyway.

 

[amr]

There was probably no real connection to the temperature. Most likely the yeast was somehow damaged on the way to you and the cell count was really low. Otherwise kveik really gets going in no time, even with severe under pitching.

But now that it's bubbling, just wait it out.

Fair enough. I think you are right in that the cell count was prob low. It was an older packet that was vacuum sealed but not open for a while. And it was not stored in the freezer but in a dark cupboard at room temp (approx 30c on average). So, I guess you are spot on there.

 

[Panderson1]

There was probably no real connection to the temperature. Most likely the yeast was somehow damaged on the way to you and the cell count was really low. Otherwise kveik really gets going in no time, even with severe under pitching.

But now that it's bubbling, just wait it out.

Within 2 hours in my cases

 

[aceluby]

Within 2 hours in my cases

I repitched some lutra at ~95F one time and it came on so fast that it was coming out the top before I got the blowoff tube put on. Under 30 seconds.

 

[DuncB]

@amr
Next time put some plastic bottles full of hot water into the fridge they will add heat. Don't have the cooling enabled and you will find it should warm up nicely.

 

[amr]

@amr
Next time put some plastic bottles full of hot water into the fridge they will add heat. Don't have the cooling enabled and you will find it should warm up nicely.

Ah! Interesting. I was considering doing that but then was thinking if once the heat goes away, will the temp not drop again?

 

[DuncB]

Once the ferment gets going in the closed box of the fridge it preserves heat well. You can always swap the bottles out when they cool.

I often ferment kveik brews with a sleeping bag over the fermenter, the airlock poking out and then " hot bottles " between fermenter and sleeping bag. When the ferment gets going there is a decent amount of heat produced and I seem to note that once the ferment temp starts to drop it's pretty much done. Info gained using the ispindel in the fermenter watching temp and gravity.

 

[amr]

Once the ferment gets going in the closed box of the fridge it preserves heat well. You can always swap the bottles out when they cool.

I often ferment kveik brews with a sleeping bag over the fermenter, the airlock poking out and then " hot bottles " between fermenter and sleeping bag. When the ferment gets going there is a decent amount of heat produced and I seem to note that once the ferment temp starts to drop it's pretty much done. Info gained using the ispindel in the fermenter watching temp and gravity.

Nice. Will keep this in mind. Thank you!

 

[Miraculix]

When I brew with kveik, I chill the wort to 37c, pitch the yeast, wrap the fermenter in a sleeping bag, and wait till done leaving it standing at room temperature. IMO, there's no extra heating necessary. The yeast heats itself up and when this stops, completion is near so no need for a stable temperature anymore.

 

[amr]

Hullo! Quick update. Looks like it's done (gravity is constant) but when I took a sample last evening to do a gravity reading, I tasted and it seems to have a tart flavour and smell. It's actually not bad in that it's not undrinkable or any such but I do know that the marzen is supposed to be nowhere near tart. I was reading up and what I came across was that maybe that's just the Yeast not having cleaned up as yet and this is common when there have been stuck fermentations or stressed Yeast.

I've added some pressure and let it sit again. Hoping all I need to do is to be patient and wait?

To recap, this is the lutra that I used which probably had some bad health because of which it never took off at 20c but slowly started when I increased the temperature and at 27-28, it finished in 3 days.

 

[VikeMan]

Looks like it's done (gravity is constant) but when I took a sample last evening to do a gravity reading, I tasted and it seems to have a tart flavour and smell. It's actually not bad in that it's not undrinkable or any such but I do know that the marzen is supposed to be nowhere near tart.

"Tart" is not an uncommon descriptor for Kveik strains. As much as some folks want them to be universal, magical yeast, they are not.

 

[amr]

"Tart" is not an uncommon descriptor for Kveik strains. As much as some folks want them to be universal, magical yeast, they are not.

Interesting. I have only used it once before - Voss in my previous pale ale and it turned out perfectly fine. Does the flavour have to do with the temp profile or the strain itself?

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting. I have only used it once before - Voss in my previous pale ale and it turned out perfectly fine. Does the flavour have to do with the temp profile or the strain itself?

It is a bit of a hit and miss. It could be that your severe underpitch triggered the tartness. Lutra seems to be one of the less tart strains, but it is still a kveik and still produceses the kveik tartness, if you ask me. Several factors seem to contribute to the intensity of the tartness, but it is still not fully understood. Temperature could play a role, as well as nutrient availability and pitch rate.

 

[amr]

It is a bit of a hit and miss. It could be that your severe underpitch triggered the tartness. Lutra seems to be one of the less tart strains, but it is still a kveik and still produceses the kveik tartness, if you ask me. Several factors seem to contribute to the intensity of the tartness, but it is still not fully understood. Temperature could play a role, as well as nutrient availability and pitch rate.

Got it. Thank you. Is it something that goes away in time? As in, I've just kept it at around 27c and 10psi. Expect to leave it for another 4-5 days. Is it likely that that's gone?