Lager vs Kveik: The Test
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Noted. Will report back in a bit. One last question - does the pressure have any impact at all? As in, should I release the pressure or leave it as is
Fair enough. We'll see what happens then. Cheers and thank you.
In my, fairly limited experience with Lutra, yes it will clear up significantly with some age. A buddy did a split batch with Lutra vs a lager strain (Wyeast 2308) where the Lutra was fermented hot and fast and the lager was more traditional. By the time the lager had some age, when tasted side by side the Lutra was so clean to be bland. I had some tartness in some bottled Lutra batches at about 3 weeks in the bottle, but this disappeared at the 5-6 week mark.
I am not 100% sure what niche Lutra fills. I am not convinced it is a great "lager" strain, but might fit well for those that can only ferment at warm room temps. I am slightly more interested in Lutra as a fairy clean yeast to quickly ferment ales when my fermentation chamber is tied up and I don't want the orange character of Voss.
The Apartment Brewer released a video on YouTube a couple weeks ago wherein he makes a split batch of Marzen wort and ferments half with Diamond Lager yeast and half with Lutra. If I recall, Lutra finished a little tart because the yeast lowered the pH lower than the lager yeast did. I'm curious if that might be case with your Marzen as well.
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This is what usually happens.
I have heard this from many sources, and I think I believe it. I did a 3 gallon batch split with US-05, Lutra and Voss. The finished beer pH was very similar, but oddly the US-05 batch had the lowest pH. My measured values at the time of bottling were:
- US-05: 4.14
- Voss: 4.17
- Lutra: 4.21
I am a bit curious about some of the wildly different results with a yeast like Lutra. I wonder how much of the differences is by the taster's sensitivity to certain flavors, or if there is something different say with the recipe, the water, or the brewer's process that drives differences. I often hear similar comments on lots of yeast, like US-05 being a crappy yeast that throws odd peachy flavors...or off flavors with Nottingham, S-04, 34/70, etc.
I have tasted the peachy flavor with 05, but only on one or two IPAs, never in dark beers.
This is the first time I am using it and from what I saw, at lower temps it does ferment very clean. I sort of took David Heath's word for it as well (the man does know his stuff!) and so decided to try it. Perhaps my batch of yeast was not great and another experiment might well be worthwhile. Perhaps there should be a dedicated Lutra thread for people to share experiences!
OP
OP
Toxxyc
New and loving it
OK. I'm back. Long story cut short - I almost quit brewing a few months back, but I'm back. To the topic at hand, lager vs kveik.
I killed both kegs. Quickly. Some of the quickest kicked kegs ever. Both beers after a few months in the keg, turned out absolutely incredible. Worlds apart, but both fantastic. As a quick summed up version of the two, here we go:
Diamond Lager:
This beer was clear, crisp, hoppy, fresh and distinctively Pilsner-like up to the last sip. It changed drastically from fresh (1 month after kegging) all the way up to around 2 months after kegging, and then the "development" of the beer stopped. The beer's flavour was on point, sweet, with the hop flavour and aroma I wanted in that beer. It also made a fantastic shandy that my wife enjoyed thoroughly. Overall, it did what the Diamond Lager yeast was expected to do, and I'm very happy with how it turned out.
Kveik Lutra:
This beer was clear, and distinctively ale-like. I don't know how to describe it, but it just wasn't crisp, light, fresh. The hop character was severely subdued and it felt like it evaporated off the beer during the vigorous fermentation from the Lutra, which correlates with other reports I've heard saying the same. The beer also seemingly improved as time went on, up to the last glass, becoming more and more smooth and easier drinking. It didn't "stop improving" with time, so to speak. However, there was an almost umami-like note in the beer, from early on, and it didn't get worse with time. The flavour wasn't overpowering and it wasn't terrible at all, but I tasted it in there. As I mentioned before, it reminded me of Marmite, or Vegemite, if you're familiar with it. It's a yeast extract so while I suspect it could be autolysis, I highly doubt it and it doesn't make sense to me in the short timespan it spent in the keg. So I don't know.
I have to make it clear again - both beers were great. I cleaned the kegs this past weekend, and what was interesting was how solid the sludge in the bottom of the Lager keg was. It was solid enough that I had to spray it off with the hand shower in the tub, and eventually had to scrub it a bit. The Kveik yeast's sludge just rinsed off easily.
As a final point - if you want to make a hoppy Pilsner, get Diamond Lager. Kveik destroys the delicate hop aromas and flavours that's associated with it, and it's not a fit for this style of beer. It's not clean enough, it's not crisp enough and it's not a substitute for a decent lager yeast, in my opinion, and that's my last notion on the topic.
The other side of this test, as you may remember from before, was seeing if the beer conditions better or worse warm or cold. As such I bottled two of these beers, and sat both in a cool closet for 2 weeks to carbonate naturally. After that, one beer was moved to the fridge and stored at 2°C for the past 3 months, while the other sat in the closet, conditioning at office room temperature, mostly between 20°C and 22°C. It sat there for 3 months and was moved to the fridge the other day, ready for the test. I hope to do a side-by-side comparison of the two beers very soon and to post a video about it on YouTube, so keep an eye on this thread!
I killed both kegs. Quickly. Some of the quickest kicked kegs ever. Both beers after a few months in the keg, turned out absolutely incredible. Worlds apart, but both fantastic. As a quick summed up version of the two, here we go:
Diamond Lager:
This beer was clear, crisp, hoppy, fresh and distinctively Pilsner-like up to the last sip. It changed drastically from fresh (1 month after kegging) all the way up to around 2 months after kegging, and then the "development" of the beer stopped. The beer's flavour was on point, sweet, with the hop flavour and aroma I wanted in that beer. It also made a fantastic shandy that my wife enjoyed thoroughly. Overall, it did what the Diamond Lager yeast was expected to do, and I'm very happy with how it turned out.
Kveik Lutra:
This beer was clear, and distinctively ale-like. I don't know how to describe it, but it just wasn't crisp, light, fresh. The hop character was severely subdued and it felt like it evaporated off the beer during the vigorous fermentation from the Lutra, which correlates with other reports I've heard saying the same. The beer also seemingly improved as time went on, up to the last glass, becoming more and more smooth and easier drinking. It didn't "stop improving" with time, so to speak. However, there was an almost umami-like note in the beer, from early on, and it didn't get worse with time. The flavour wasn't overpowering and it wasn't terrible at all, but I tasted it in there. As I mentioned before, it reminded me of Marmite, or Vegemite, if you're familiar with it. It's a yeast extract so while I suspect it could be autolysis, I highly doubt it and it doesn't make sense to me in the short timespan it spent in the keg. So I don't know.
I have to make it clear again - both beers were great. I cleaned the kegs this past weekend, and what was interesting was how solid the sludge in the bottom of the Lager keg was. It was solid enough that I had to spray it off with the hand shower in the tub, and eventually had to scrub it a bit. The Kveik yeast's sludge just rinsed off easily.
As a final point - if you want to make a hoppy Pilsner, get Diamond Lager. Kveik destroys the delicate hop aromas and flavours that's associated with it, and it's not a fit for this style of beer. It's not clean enough, it's not crisp enough and it's not a substitute for a decent lager yeast, in my opinion, and that's my last notion on the topic.
The other side of this test, as you may remember from before, was seeing if the beer conditions better or worse warm or cold. As such I bottled two of these beers, and sat both in a cool closet for 2 weeks to carbonate naturally. After that, one beer was moved to the fridge and stored at 2°C for the past 3 months, while the other sat in the closet, conditioning at office room temperature, mostly between 20°C and 22°C. It sat there for 3 months and was moved to the fridge the other day, ready for the test. I hope to do a side-by-side comparison of the two beers very soon and to post a video about it on YouTube, so keep an eye on this thread!
Thanks for sharing your evaluation notes. They tend to follow my thoughts on yeast...different yeast strains produce different beers, but most yeast strains can be used to make very enjoyable beers. A good brewer can made a very good beer with Lutra, even if it is not exactly the same beer that could be made with a traditional lager yeast and method. I am looking forward to your comparison. It does seem like Lutra needs a bit of time conditioning...which might defeat some of the benefit of using a "fast" yeast like Lutra.
McMullan
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A good brewer selects an appropriate yeast strain to ferment the wort he or she has gone to trouble to make. There's really no reason at all to struggle trying to get inferior yeast to 'sing'. Unless you're a fashion victim hoodwinked by blogs and aggressive marketing campaigns pushing romantic beliefs engineered to sell. Choose an appropriate yeast strain to begin with. That's what good brewers do. If the intention is to brew a 'Norwegian farmhouse' spud moonshine ale, select a 'crikey' strain of some kind and pretend you're a troll viking. Otherwise select a more appropriate strain.
Edit: Sorry, lost my train of thought. As a 'wet yeast' brewer generally, I am more than happy to recommend Diamond Lager yeast.
Edit: Sorry, lost my train of thought. As a 'wet yeast' brewer generally, I am more than happy to recommend Diamond Lager yeast.
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Interesting! Looking forward to the results.
Update on the beer.
Has been at 28c at 10PSI for the past 3 days. The tartness is still there but it seems to be sort of mellowing out, as in, it seems to be more rounded in its tartness. Or maybe I am imagining things. I will let it be for another 4-5 days and report out again.
Has been at 28c at 10PSI for the past 3 days. The tartness is still there but it seems to be sort of mellowing out, as in, it seems to be more rounded in its tartness. Or maybe I am imagining things. I will let it be for another 4-5 days and report out again.
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When you say "..combined the Sahti grist / Kveik process", does that mean a standard mash / boil / pitch with Kveik yeast?
Thank you.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Well, I mean I use grist composition from Finnish Sahti (Pilsen+Munich+Dark Rye Malt) and mashing/boiling schedule from traditional Norvegian Farmhouse ales (very hot and long mash, long boil, pitching Kveik yeast).
The principal differences is that Sahti mashing scheme is an extremely long gradual temp rise starting from cold water, it isn't boiled and the yeast used is more similar to baking yeast rather than to Kveik. Otherwise, both styles produce a pretty similar brew - hearty, thick and strong, very minimally hopped if at all, juniper-infused, best drunk very fresh.
I like the combination much more than each of the styles taken alone.
The principal differences is that Sahti mashing scheme is an extremely long gradual temp rise starting from cold water, it isn't boiled and the yeast used is more similar to baking yeast rather than to Kveik. Otherwise, both styles produce a pretty similar brew - hearty, thick and strong, very minimally hopped if at all, juniper-infused, best drunk very fresh.
I like the combination much more than each of the styles taken alone.
Brewed the Rongoteus yesterday and it's bubbling strong. Horrible efficiency of 62%, therefore a bit weaker than the anticipated 1.07 og, I got 1.062 instead. Bitternes also tasted a bit stronger than 23 ibus to me, more like 30. lesson learned, full volume without boil off is only efficient with biab. My bag just burst.... Need to buy a new one.
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Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
My congrats! You'll have an excellent addition to your cellar to savour!
Just yesterday I drank a bottle of my 4 months-aged Rongoteus. A heavenly brew.
Just yesterday I drank a bottle of my 4 months-aged Rongoteus. A heavenly brew.
Sparging was dream-like. The 30 minute beta glucan rest really did something. Overall the whole brewday went a bit sideways... coudn't really hit the temperature steps with the infusions, beta glucan was 5 degrees too high, 65 step was 3 degrees too high, then temperature fell more the initially thought, so I had to bring it up from 61 again via infusion.... this meant with the remaining water volume I could only get it to 70, but no mash out. However, lautering, as I said, it was beautiful. It ran and ran and ran till it stopped because of no wort left. Volume wise, perfect calculation, I had a full kettle at the end, but with less OG than desired. I am sure, that if my kettel woudn't be 18l big, but 30 or 35, I would be able to sparge properly and then could boil down the wort to get a better efficiancy and higher og with 18 litres at the end of the boil.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I almost never use the 65C step, however often it's recommended in modern recipes (it's actually pretty rare in historical recipes, as far as what I have seen). I find that it results in slightly less efficiency, as at 65C both enzymes have to work near the edge of their respective optimal ranges. I believe the 65 step may be justified when just a single-step mashing is strictly required by a historical recipe (most often, by an English one). When I see it in a modern schedule, I usually replace it with a standard Hochkurz of different lengths, depending of how much fermentability I want.
In my version of Rongoteus, I employed steps of 30' at 45C, then 45' rising from 60 to 65C and another 45' rise from 70 to 74C (I chose gradual rise over single-temp steps because rising is very traditional for brewing Sahti and I think it better converts the Rye). Got 80% extraction and was happy with that.
Glucan rest - yes, it works wonders up to 25% of Rye in the grist! Beyond that, things start getting sticky irregardless.
I bottled it on friday. The beer has an intense Kveik twang and strong rye presence plus roast from the dark rye. It is interesting atm. I did not like it that much when bottling, but this is the type of beer that improves a lot with aging. FG is about 1.013, so I ended up with about 6.5% abv. This is lower than anticipated, but not so low that I would call it a failure. To the contrary, it is actually a big success because I want to do another stronger beer soon, which I now have to make a concept for, to increase my efficiency. I will do a batch sparge, first full volume sparge, then boiling down the liquid while doing a second "mash" with the grist. I will then extract the liquid a second time and add this to my first runnings. Plus I'll be doing biab, my new bag is in the mail. This should bump up the efficiency by 15 to 25%, which would leave me between 70 and 85% I guess.
I am looking forward to having the first one of this kveik brew in a few months!
I am looking forward to having the first one of this kveik brew in a few months!
OK, Could not wait any longer, cracked the first bottle.
SURPRISINGLY GOOD
Intersting thing is, I cannot detect any twang at all any more. Also no specific Voss characteristik. Just sweet and strong beer with nice head and good flavour. The rye is not punching you in the face and is all about the malt. It is a really nice beer.
Thanks. I think my father will love this.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Congrats! Glad to hear!
My main takeaway from that series of several unexpectedly good Dark Rye Kveiks was that the Dark Rye muted somehow that intrusive Kveiky twang which I didn't particularly like. It's not just dark malts that overshadow it (my "Kveiky Porters" sans Rye still had the twang), it must be something that Rye adds or rather covers synergetically with the dark malts. Great beers, the Kveik twang is tamed completely, I think the beers would have tasted the same if fermented with a clean Koelsch yeast.
My main takeaway from that series of several unexpectedly good Dark Rye Kveiks was that the Dark Rye muted somehow that intrusive Kveiky twang which I didn't particularly like. It's not just dark malts that overshadow it (my "Kveiky Porters" sans Rye still had the twang), it must be something that Rye adds or rather covers synergetically with the dark malts. Great beers, the Kveik twang is tamed completely, I think the beers would have tasted the same if fermented with a clean Koelsch yeast.
I can confirm that, kveik twang tamed. That is rather interesting. Does it also happen without darker rye malt? Meaning, with only normal rye?
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Yes, with light Rye it still lingers. Not as prominently as with a pure Barley grist, still it does.
Along with my other Rye Kveiks I brewed last summer an amber one with no Dark Rye: Pilsner 65%, Light Rye 15%, Munich & Melano 5% each, Honey 10%, OG 1.060, 7% Alc., 20 IBU. Nice beer, the Kveiky thing is still there but by far not as annoying as it used to be in my earlier Rye-less Amber Kveiks.
I won't rebrew this beer though, while Rongoteus II is already in the brewing list for the next summer. Will add a bit of Fermented Rye to it this time.
Along with my other Rye Kveiks I brewed last summer an amber one with no Dark Rye: Pilsner 65%, Light Rye 15%, Munich & Melano 5% each, Honey 10%, OG 1.060, 7% Alc., 20 IBU. Nice beer, the Kveiky thing is still there but by far not as annoying as it used to be in my earlier Rye-less Amber Kveiks.
I won't rebrew this beer though, while Rongoteus II is already in the brewing list for the next summer. Will add a bit of Fermented Rye to it this time.
Maybe RyePA with kveik could be a thing then. Maybe Lutra would be a good choice.
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Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
My amber Rye Kveik was fermented with Hornindal. In an amber beer, it tastes better than Voss because it's not as characterful.
In warm weather I make a Kveik version of my rye pale using Bootleg Oslo. Grist is about 10% rye with some variations in other specialty malts. The recipe originated with C hops, but last time I used Azacca too. Oslo has a slightly fruity flavor that goes well in an APA.
