kveik substitutes for traditional styles?

[twd000]

I'm interested in evaluating some kveik yeast strains to see which might be viable substitutes for their traditional yeast strains. I'm not interested in any New England hazy IPAs (blasphemy!), or raw ales, or juniper beers. Just your run-of-the-mill BJCP styles

clean, low-ester American Ale - (Omega HotHead?)
ester-forward British Ale - (?)
clean, malty German lager - (Bootleg Oslo? or is this wishful thinking?)
Belgian saison - (?)
any others to try?


I ferment split batches, so I'd like to evaluate the kveik strain vs. the old standby to see if any are worthy of displacing the incumbent yeast strain

 

[beersk]

Yeah, definitely do a Kolsch style with any of the kveiks. I guess they'd be called blonde ales, either way, pretty much the same thing. Those yeasts work out nicely in that style. I did several over the summer and they were my favorites and will be staples from now on. Plus, not having to chill down in the summer below 90F is awesome.

A witbier would probably be good with Voss. Or any kind of wheat beer would be good with any of the kveiks.

Also, not sure if you're a black IPA guy, but I brewed a black IPA with Hornindal and I love it. That yeast, and probably all of the kveiks, are perfect for black IPA. Like a chocolate covered orange.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I've done several porters with Voss, and it seems to work quite well. The orange doesn't come through too much.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

clean, low-ester American Ale - (Omega HotHead?)
ester-forward British Ale - (?)
clean, malty German lager - (Bootleg Oslo? or is this wishful thinking?)
Belgian saison - (?)
any others to try?

Clean - Stranda=Hothead (or most of them, if you keep them on the cool side)
British - Hornindal (or most of them, a bit warmer)
NEIPA-ish - Årset, Ebbegarden, Hornindal or most of them, towards the top of temp range
Lager - Bootleg Oslo (WHC Ubbe looks like it's the same) - see this thread
"Belgian" - it seems that a lack of phenolics are a defining characteristic of the Norwegian kveiks, but most of the Lithuanian ones are mildly POF+ like Simonaitis (TYB) and Jovaru (Omega - gentle pepperiness, high attenuation)

And then Voss is the jack-of-all-trades that is widely available, and will be available in dry form from Lallemand within the next few weeks.

You can control a lot of their character depending on what kind of temperature you ferment at, some of them can get a bit weird if you take them as low as "normal" fermentation temperatures. Those high temperatures mean they ferment fast, so you want to make sure your blowoff system is ready for it. And they're adapted to pretty high-gravity worts which means they like lots of nutrients, which can be a problem in <1.060 worts if you don't give them extra. See Lars Garshol's site for more "how to".

The definitive list is at : http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/farmhouse/kveik.html

Escarpment Labs in Canada work closely with Lars so by buying from them you're supporting the science, they have strains from close to the source (and eg their Hornindal is a multistrain) and they also release monthly "specials" (most recently Skare).

 

[TurnipGreen]

I tried a Berliner Weiss with hornidal. It turned out pretty unique with the pineapple notes. It fermented in the sun on my deck, so fermenting in the nineties. It was my first crack at a Berliner Weiss and a second running beer. I like to experiment with small batch second runnings. I bet someone with more knowledge for the style could make it a really really cool.

I also did a standard pale ale. That turned out well enough i’m doing it again this weekend. I really like the added body hornindal gave the pale ale. Fermented that at standard ale temps. This go around i’ll keep it in the eighties.

 

[TurnipGreen]

As for twd000’s list. Pale ales are definitely something to try. Same for British ales. I’d love to here how a pils or any malt forward lager turns out!

The Belgians and saisons i think of being really tied to the yeast. I’m having hard time imagining what that would taste like or how to still make it taste like a Belgian. But it sounds like fun to try it out and if I saw it on a beer list I would definitely want to try it!

 

[twd000]

thanks for all the tips. Think I'm going to pick up a pitch of Voss and try it on a British ESB vs. Nottingham next.

follow-up question for those more familiar with kveik under different temperatures. I know they tolerate 90-100F pitch temperatures, but how do they respond to un-controlled fermentation at lower temperatures? I would love to just set the fermentor in my basement and let it ride with no temp control. Basement temps can be low 50's to high 60's depending on the season and which doors are open or closed.

Will kveik fully attenuate at these lower temps, and just take longer? Will I get a vastly different flavor profile? Leftover diacetyl or acetaldehyde?

 

[beersk]

thanks for all the tips. Think I'm going to pick up a pitch of Voss and try it on a British ESB vs. Nottingham next.

follow-up question for those more familiar with kveik under different temperatures. I know they tolerate 90-100F pitch temperatures, but how do they respond to un-controlled fermentation at lower temperatures? I would love to just set the fermentor in my basement and let it ride with no temp control. Basement temps can be low 50's to high 60's depending on the season and which doors are open or closed.

Will kveik fully attenuate at these lower temps, and just take longer? Will I get a vastly different flavor profile? Leftover diacetyl or acetaldehyde?

Kveik really isn't the type of yeast to use for those lower temperatures. You might as well use something more like Wyeast 1007 (one of my favorites for this time of year). Or something that likes to be fermented cooler. That's just my opinion though...

 

[Miraculix]

Kveik really isn't the type of yeast to use for those lower temperatures. You might as well use something more like Wyeast 1007 (one of my favorites for this time of year). Or something that likes to be fermented cooler. That's just my opinion though...

It's quite easy, just don't cool the wort too much. Bring it down to about 35c, pitch and let it go. The yeast will heat itself for the main part of the fermentation and it will be done in less then two days. You can wrap the fermenter in a sleeping bag to support this, but you don't have to.

 

[twd000]

It's quite easy, just don't cool the wort too much. Bring it down to about 35c, pitch and let it go. The yeast will heat itself for the main part of the fermentation and it will be done in less then two days. You can wrap the fermenter in a sleeping bag to support this, but you don't have to.

I like that approach - very simple. My wort chills to 35C in about 5 mins with my groundwater temperatures and cold garage. In fact I'll probably end up transferring a lot of trub instead of waiting for it to settle like I usually do when cooling to 60 F.

so if I expect fermentation to be done in 48 hours, can I attach my spunding valve set to 30 psi after 24 hours? How do these yeasts respond to top-pressure?

 

[Miraculix]

I like that approach - very simple. My wort chills to 35C in about 5 mins with my groundwater temperatures and cold garage. In fact I'll probably end up transferring a lot of trub instead of waiting for it to settle like I usually do when cooling to 60 F.

so if I expect fermentation to be done in 48 hours, can I attach my spunding valve set to 30 psi after 24 hours? How do these yeasts respond to top-pressure?

I don't know, I never kegged or spunded. But trub contains nutrients and this yeast really needs a lot of nutrients. Other threads showed that the majority of people who experienced troubles where using really clear wort with zero trub so I guess with kveik, trub in the fermenter is your friend.

 

[beersk]

It's quite easy, just don't cool the wort too much. Bring it down to about 35c, pitch and let it go. The yeast will heat itself for the main part of the fermentation and it will be done in less then two days. You can wrap the fermenter in a sleeping bag to support this, but you don't have to.

I mean, yeah, this is the way I've done it. But if it's going to be in the 50's ambient, that might get a little cool. But I guess if you maybe wrap the ferment in blankets and pitch in the 90's, it'll probably be done fermenting by the time it has a chance to really cool off too much. I never had any under attenuation problems with the kveiks I used. Great yeast, going to be a summer go-to.

 

[Miraculix]

I mean, yeah, this is the way I've done it. But if it's going to be in the 50's ambient, that might get a little cool. But I guess if you maybe wrap the ferment in blankets and pitch in the 90's, it'll probably be done fermenting by the time it has a chance to really cool off too much. I never had any under attenuation problems with the kveiks I used. Great yeast, going to be a summer go-to.

You have to keep in mind that the fermentation itself produces lots of heat and that kveik can be done in 24h. There's not much chance for much cooling within these circumstances and time frames... And as you said, if ambient gets really cold, just wrap the fermenter in a blanket or a sleeping bag.

 

[beersk]

You have to keep in mind that the fermentation itself produces lots of heat and that kveik can be done in 24h. There's not much chance for much cooling within these circumstances and time frames... And as you said, if ambient gets really cold, just wrap the fermenter in a blanket or a sleeping bag.

Indeed. Bottom line - these yeast are awesome; game changers, IMO.

 

[Miraculix]

Indeed. Bottom line - these yeast are awesome; game changers, IMO.

Yes, I agree, but they have to be treated the right way. But for home brewers, treating them the right way means actually having an easier and quicker overall process, compared to the more "traditional" brewing strains.

 

[TurnipGreen]

I’ve used hornindal at uncontrolled basement temps and I performed just a bit quicker that any other ale yeast.

It did not develop any of the cool unique flavors at that temp. It was obviously a different yeast, but you could pass it off as a standard ale.

It did have a thicker mouthfeel and it drank like a malt forward pale ale, but still had the hops shine through. It’s worth trying a low temps, but don’t expect the crazy yeast flavors.

 

[shoreman]

Did you ever explore other styles?

 

[twd000]

Did you ever explore other styles?

had some really good results with an Anchor Steam / Cal Common using Lutra
cloned a Boulevard Tank 7 Saison with Jovaru and it's crisp, refreshing and citrusy. Very high attenuation on that one
Next up will probably be a Kolsch with Lutra

Currently fermenting in my garage is a Dale's Pale Ale clone with Stranda (~= HotHead?)
Cooled the wort to 85 and pitched a little 500 mL vitality starter. I'm fermenting in the boil kettle, sitting on all the trub
Keggle element set to hold 85F and the krausen was foaming like crazy when I checked it this morning.
Plan to top-crop yeast tonight after work, then rack the partially-finished beer off the trub and into kegs, to dry hop and spund using the residual gravity points
Breaking all the rules on this one - we'll see how she goes!

 

[shoreman]

Thanks, so I take it you’ve become a fan of kveik?

 

[twd000]

Thanks, so I take it you’ve become a fan of kveik?

so far, so good

I still do use 34/70 for traditional lagers, and planning on Munich Classic for a Hefeweizen, but kveik covers a lot of other bases

Kveik embodies my vision of homebrewing - rather than scaling down the high-tech process control of commercial breweries with digital temperature control, and full microbiology lab.

The reality is that the way I homebrew means a yeast that can thrive at a range of temperatures, and can be dried and frozen for years between brews works for me. If I was brewing back-to-back batches every few days like the pros, repitching yeast slurry would make more sense than it does. My kveik yeast bank is a few ziploc bags of dried flakes in the freezer instead of a dozen jars of degrading slurry

 

[shoreman]

That makes sense, I have a few new ones to try - Arset and Opshaug.

I totally agree with your Vision, I just haven’t found a kveik that I want to stick with yet - they are amazing for IPAs and beers like that, but I’d like to just have a clean, easy kveik to use for 90% of my styles.

Have you found an easy way to dry kveik?

 

[Miraculix]

I do not like kveik any more, because of it's tart kveik twang that it imparts. Lutra has the lowest amount of the twang but still got it. Other downside of Lutra is that it does not clear well... actually often it does not clear at all. I am keeping my hands off kveik for now. I guess for me a good saison yeast makes more sense in terms of set and forget temperature wise. Otherwise, the bath tub full of cold water for the first 2-3 days also does the trick. After majority of fermentation is done, you can safely bring it up to room temp, which is usually after 1.5-2 days with a healthy fermentation.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Other downside of Lutra is that it does not clear well... actually often it does not clear at all.

Well......this one did. It's my American Wheat Beer, my recipe calls for nearly 60% wheat malt. Fermented with Lutra. Pic was taken yesterday. Granted, it's been in the keg for 3 months, but it's almost crystal clear.

 

[Miraculix]

Well......this one did. It's my American Wheat Beer, my recipe calls for nearly 60% wheat malt. Fermented with Lutra. Pic was taken yesterday. Granted, it's been in the keg for 3 months, but it's almost crystal clear.

View attachment 761231

I have a mead that's almost the same time in the fermenter since fermentation stopped and it is still cloudy..... You're lucky!

I never managed to figure out the factor that makes lutra clear... It is not Na, I tried upping that.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I have a mead that's almost the same time in the fermenter since fermentation stopped and it is still cloudy..... You're lucky!

I never managed to figure out the factor that makes lutra clear... It is not Na, I tried upping that.

In my case, being that it’s a wheat beer, clarity is not necessarily a desired characteristic. I wasn’t even trying for a clear beer!! I did, mistakenly out of habit, throw a Whirlfoc tablet in on brew day. But that’s the only difference from the previous time I brewed this, and that one stayed cloudy until the keg was empty.

 

[Miraculix]

In my case, being that it’s a wheat beer, clarity is not necessarily a desired characteristic. I wasn’t even trying for a clear beer!! I did, mistakenly out of habit, throw a Whirlfoc tablet in on brew day. But that’s the only difference from the previous time I brewed this, and that one stayed cloudy until the keg was empty.

I did it the other way around, I'm afraid

I never used Irish moss, wanted to use it last time I brewed, prepared it, left it next to the kettle, boiled as usual, completely forgot about it as I do not have a habit of using it and at the end had to throw it away.