Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[myerstyson]

Got my ingredients in the mail. I'll be brewing on Sunday!

 

[Barley_Bob]

I'm making my starter today... Maybe I'm being a tad optimistic about my ability to brew in the near future, but I've been waiting so long to brew this already that it is killing me! I helped a friend with a batch on Monday (we did it MLK style - strong and black), and I've got the bug bad.

 

[unionrdr]

I gotta pay a bill in the next couple days, so I'll be getting the spring water then to make a starter & brew it up. Been wanting to get this going.

 

[myerstyson]

OK, as this'll be only my fourth batch since returning to homebrewing (20 year hiatus), and my first non-kit batch, I have to ask this question, so I don't screw this up.

I'm following the Zymurgy partial mash recipe, but due to my current duty station, I am using DME. I used a useful page (on home computer, can't remember URL) to convert the LME amounts to DME. So I'm 99% sure I've got those amounts correct.

But do I have to change the amount of honey and molasses? The Zymurgy article calls for 1.3oz of honey and 0.6oz of molasses.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You're right to run a conversion to go from LME to DME (DME has more sugar per pound). You don't need to make any change to the amount of molasses or honey (unless you adjust the entire recipe to make the beer bigger or smaller).

 

[myerstyson]

Done. I got 1.042 FG. I converted the Zymurgy article to DME, so not sure how I got different, but there you are. It tasted okay, when I drank the gravity sample.

It was fun. I learned a lot. For example, I presume I should have let the 0 minute hops sit in the wort for a bit before I started to cool. I only say this because I left the bag with the hops in the kettle while the wort chiller was working. Then, when I got the wort down to 70*, the bag dropped to the bottom. I had to take my (sanitized) spoon and find it, disturbing the trub/protein/whatever on the bottom till I finally found that damn bag.

I think in the future, I'll let the wort sit for 10-15 min (what do you think?) with the hop bag in, before I start the chiller, then remove the hop bag before I start the chiller. Does that sound like a good plan?

Otherwise went pretty well. I deviated from the Zymurgy recipe. I had put the FWH in right after I removed the mashing grains (1.5lbs of 6-row and 0.75lbs of flaked oats). It took about 15 minutes to get up to a boil, so I counted that as the 90-75th min of the wort boil, so when the boil started, I added the Magnum hops and started the clock at 75:00.

Otherwise, I followed the Zymurgy recipe.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I never do a "0 minute" addition. If I'm going to add something post boil, I'll just do a whirlpool. I really do that for two reasons - First, to maximize the flavor I'm getting out of those hops, and second, so that I can calculate the ibu contribution. I don't quite get why anyone would toss in a 0 minute addition and then chill. Maybe someone can fill me in.

When I do a whirlpool, I let the temp drift down to ~180, add my hops, and then give it periodic stirs over 30 minutes. I don't use a hop bag. When all is said and done, I just add everything to the fermenter. It definitely doesn't hurt anything, and it's a lot easier.

So, to summarize, I would do a whirlpool, then add the chiller and run it, and then I would just dump it all in the fermenter.

The 75minute boil shouldn't be a big deal... you should be careful working with this much pilsner malt, as it throws off a lot of DMS. 90 minute boils are common in pilsner based brews for this reason. But 75 is better than 60, and I think you'll probably be fine. I would just do the full 90 next time.

Anyway, glad to hear everything went well! Keep us posted! A friend of mine might come over this week and help me brew this (lift the kettles and buckets). Hopefully, we'll all be drinking Kottbusser in the near future.

 

[myerstyson]

Thanks @Barley_Bob.

The Kottbusser is bubbling away here at ~24 hours since pitching. I'm getting a bubble every 2-3 seconds. w00t!

 

[unionrdr]

I hate having to wait til tomorrow to get my son to take me out bill paying so I can get the spring water & ice. So it'll likely be tomorrow before I get the starter going. This is finally going to happen very soon. Tough since he works 2 jobs & my car is down. Recipe & ingredients are at the ready for my pb/pm biab version of two different recipes I worked up in BS2. Dang, I can't wait to get this going finally. Then maybe we can do an early spring bottle swap or something? I still think it'd be good input on style experiments to nail it as much as possible.

 

[myerstyson]

A bubble every second this morning, at about 36 hours since pitching!

 

[Weezy]

Interesting looking beer fellas! I do a colonial porter which is actually quite similar (pils, wheat, oats, honey, blackstrap) but with other grains as well. I use about 3% each for the honey and molasses and get noticeable flavor out of both. I also toast the flaked oats for a richer character. But this looks sort of like a pale version and it looks quite nice! looking forward to reading more tasting notes from you guys.

 

[unionrdr]

Gonna try & get the spring water today while bill paying. 19F & snow comin'. Oh goody. Got box of grains next to me for the pb/pm recipe. Rest in fridge & freezer. I'm hoping the unsulfured molasses is the right choice here. Gotta get starter going first.

 

[myerstyson]

Interesting looking beer fellas! I do a colonial porter which is actually quite similar (pils, wheat, oats, honey, blackstrap) but with other grains as well. I use about 3% each for the honey and molasses and get noticeable flavor out of both. I also toast the flaked oats for a richer character. But this looks sort of like a pale version and it looks quite nice! looking forward to reading more tasting notes from you guys.

@Weezy, please post your recipe. I'd love to brew your colonial porter. Sounds wonderful.

 

[Weezy]

Thanks for the interest but it's not ready to share yet and I didnt want to hijack this thread. I just noticed that this beer was <2% honey and molasses while I'm at 3%, but in my beer they are competing with darker malts and crystal.. anyway, I want to tweak the porter to get it where I want it. I want to try US pale ale malt instead of the pils and wheat next time. And I had too much crystal in it. I'll be sure to post it when I'm happy. This thread has prompted me to want to brew it again tbh.

 

[myerstyson]

Thanks for the interest but it's not ready to share yet and I didnt want to hijack this thread. I just noticed that this beer was <2% honey and molasses while I'm at 3%, but in my beer they are competing with darker malts and crystal.. anyway, I want to tweak the porter to get it where I want it. I want to try US pale ale malt instead of the pils and wheat next time. And I had too much crystal in it. I'll be sure to post it when I'm happy. This thread has prompted me to want to brew it again tbh.

Understand Weezy. I'll keep my eyes open for your recipe in the future!

 

[bhchrist]

19F & snow comin'. Oh goody.

Probably what we just had yesterday in Wisconsin. Passing it on. I was home sick yesterday and made a good dent in Michael Tonsmeire's (The Mad Fermentationist) book, American Sour Beers. I am really tempted the next time I brew this to do a bit larger batch and split half out for some souring. Any excuse to brew more of this.

 

[unionrdr]

After the last day of wrestling matches with (I forget the schools), my heavyweight son Matt , the coach, & a few teammates got a bad headache & sick feeling since Sunday. He's still getting over it today, with a match tonight. Dammit. He's the only heavyweight on his team at 6'2", 237lbs. Big, stocky kid that takes after his Hungarian grandpa. That guy was so big, his wedding band could fit my big toe with room to spare!

 

[unionrdr]

Started looking through more pages of google search on kottbusser & found another interesting description I think y'all will like; http://growlermag.com/chasing-the-beer-scene-southeastern-minnesota/

 

[Barley_Bob]

Those are actually pretty good tasting notes. We'll have to keep them in mind.

Sorry to year about your son and his wrestling team. Hope they get well soon!

 

[bhchrist]

Neat link. I have been to Pepin on the Wisconsin side of Lake Pepin and am certain I have driven through Reads Landing multiple times. Good to know this is here the next time I head in that direction. Thanks.

 

[unionrdr]

You're welcome. Here's another decent read I found a couple pages in; http://potablecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2008/05/kottbusser-ale-at-bbc-shelbyvilleroad.html Just trying to get the best "average" feel for it that I can. I have enough grains, molasses & honey to alter things a bit if necessary.

 

[bhchrist]

New Albanian was the bell of the ball (IMO) a few years ago at the Great Taste of the Midwest in Madison. Really solid beers and they brew a Kentucky Common. A highly recommended stop if you are in the Louisville area.

 

[myerstyson]

God, you guys are making me so thirsty. And I've only had my Kotbusser fermenting for three days.

 

[unionrdr]

Hahahehehoho to the brewery, where life is beautiful all the time...
I gotta make the starter today & put it upstairs in the master bedroom for a day or two. Then finally brew day! Gotta finish scrubbing bottles for me & delable some for the chili pepper IIPA I'll be brewing for my son. Gonna save him his own stash of bottles.

 

[myerstyson]

Gents,
The Zymurgy article for the AG version says to crash to 40* and cold condition for 3 weeks (option) then bottle.

I can't put another carboy in our extra fridge or SWMBO will kill me. (I've already got a doppelbock in there.) I do have a room that stays around 50*. What do you think? Rack to secondary and put in that room for 3 weeks? Or just go ahead and bottle?

 

[myerstyson]

To add, I just did a gravity and got 1.010.

Now for the taste....strange.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Gents,
The Zymurgy article for the AG version says to crash to 40* and cold condition for 3 weeks (option) then bottle.

I can't put another carboy in our extra fridge or SWMBO will kill me. (I've already got a doppelbock in there.) I do have a room that stays around 50*. What do you think? Rack to secondary and put in that room for 3 weeks? Or just go ahead and bottle?

It's your call... I think 50F would be fine. You could also bottle, carb, and then stuff the bottles somewhere cold to condition. I never really cold crash anymore because it's kind of a pain, so I guess I would bottle and then condition. Both should be fine.

The taste will probably change a lot between now and then. I wouldn't worry.

 

[unionrdr]

I use the same yeast (WL029) for my hybrid lagers as with this one. I let the bottles carb in the MB during cold weather for the few weeks needed. Then back to the rather chilly man cave for storage. 2 weeks fridge time for a bit of lagering & they're pretty good. Nice lager-like balance with some crispness on the back. Going to try the same with this one.

 

[jonbourg]

How do you guys think this would turn out for BIAB?

 

[unionrdr]

I'll find out. I do pb/pm biab. Just gotta get my aching joints going on the starter today.

 

[Barley_Bob]

How do you guys think this would turn out for BIAB?

I BIAB. You should be totally fine! Welcome to Kottbusser!

 

[bhchrist]

Gents,
The Zymurgy article for the AG version says to crash to 40* and cold condition for 3 weeks (option) then bottle.

I can't put another carboy in our extra fridge or SWMBO will kill me. (I've already got a doppelbock in there.) I do have a room that stays around 50*. What do you think? Rack to secondary and put in that room for 3 weeks? Or just go ahead and bottle?

I don't think I would even worry about racking to a secondary. If you are patient, you can always hold it in the 50 degree room and then swap it with your doppelbock when you bottle that for a week or two. Sorry I can't comment on the sample taste after primary, as I did not check mine until after it was 6+ weeks old and had been held at 34 for a couple of weeks. I would be interested to hear feedback from you guys on how much the flavor changes if you are sampling more frequently.

 

[Barley_Bob]

@unionrdr if you're using RO water, what adjustments are you making for this style?

 

[xzgfhgh]

Thanks for posting that. Very helpful!

 

[unionrdr]

I have spring water at the ready to brew it with. Joints aching like hell lately. Gotta make the starter for that half frozen yeast first. With some spring water of course. The lil yeasties seem to like it.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, got the starter made & waiting for it to cool down. Just doing 800mL of water with .17lb of the LME (3.15lb jug) for the recipe. BS2 got my OG higher than usual with all of it as I put it together. So the mash will account for what I used & get it down a hair closer to usual gravity. *Looking at the flask now, it's more like 850mL with the .17lb of plain LME.

 

[raysmithtx]

if you're using RO water, what adjustments are you making for this style?

Even though the question was not directed to me, I'll take a stab at this.

I brewed my batch this weekend and used Brunwater spreadsheet to calculate my water additions. They are based on 100% RO water and using the Mild Ale profile.

Profile
50 calcium - after additions 52.3
20 sodium - after additions 8
40 sulfate - after additions 48.2
65 chloride - after additions 67.8
0 magnesium - after additions 2.6

I use BIAB so the following additions are for 8.23 gallons of mash water (total water for BIAB) and a 10 pound grist bill.

2.1g gypsum
.8g epsom salt
4.1g calcium chloride
4.9ml lactic acid

I checked the mash pH at 15 minutes and it was 5.3 using the above.

 

[unionrdr]

I decided to stay with the spring water the yeasties seem to like. Gives good flavor complexities for the last few years. Still waiting for the starter wort to cool down to 89F or so.

 

[Barley_Bob]

My tap should be fine for this, but I was curious to know what every one was doing. I'm planning to start playing with my water more.

 

[myerstyson]

Gravity today: 1.006. I think I'll bottle on Saturday. Taste is interesting. Not sure how to compare it.

On another note (I won't do this this time): I wonder what this would taste like if I primed with honey instead of corn sugar.