Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[uncleleon]

New style ! German blonde ale / hybrid

 

[unionrdr]

^ What does it smell/taste like? I'm still a bit confused by the various color descriptions. Not to mention, raw sugar was used, then molasses began to be listed as well. Since some texts say the beer had a reddish hue to it, I upped the molasses by .1oz to .6oz. Then added 4ozs carared for a hair more color to 5.2 SRM.

 

[uncleleon]

My particular beer tastes too me like an American cream ale meets a kolsch with too much wheat.

I did all honey no molasses and all hallertau. So it's bit off from the other recipes

 

[Barley_Bob]

OK, I'm working up the recipe in BS2 from a combination of Beersmith's & Brewtoad's recipes. Beersmith lists the style as a Kolsch. But using that style definition I can't get an OG of 1.050 with the amounts of ingredients listed. I switched to the "specialty beer" classification Brewtoad uses & the numbers fall right into line. I have to agree with this, as it isn't a "Kolsch" merely because of the yeast used in both recipes (WL029). So I guess I'll be using the Kolsch yeast, as both recipes list it. Here's a page from Barkley Perkins on Kotbusser; http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/07/kotbusser-bier-recipe.html Are we to assume the "raw sugar" to be something like demerara-raw cane sugar? So far, the recipe looks like this under the Specialty Beer style classification. Partial Mash, BIAB medium bodied, Ale, single stage;
Bohemian pilsner malt- 3lbs
Pilsner LME- 3lbs
German wheat malt- 3lbs
Flaked oats- 12ozs
Acidulated malt- 4ozs
Rice hulls- 8ozs
Honey- 1.3ozs
Molasses- 1/2oz
Magnum hops- .65oz, 60 minutes
Hallertauer hops- .6oz, 3 minutes
Czech Saaz hops- 1oz, 3 minutes
Whirlfloc- 1/2 tablet, 15 minutes
Yeast, WL029 German Kolsch, 1 vial
RANGE ESTIMATED
OG 1.030-1.110 1.060
FG 1.015
IBU 5.0-70.0 20.4
Color 5-50 SRM 4.6
ABV 2.5-12% 6.0%
Carbonation level 2.3 VCo2
What do y'all think so far? I think it needs a bit more reddish color. Hard to keep IBU's in the listed 14.3 range without going all the way to the bottom of the IBU graph? Besides, I don't think 20.4 IBU's is too much.
* Here's a map of Germany that shows the city of Cottbus being near the Western border of Poland near the NW border of the Czech Republic; http://itouchmap.com/?r=b&e=y&p=51.291667,13.523889:0:0:Cottbuser%20Bahnhof,%20Germany

I think it looks good. The honey and molasses are low compared to the sample recipes I've seen, but there's nothing else that jumps off the page to me. I like the idea of a slightly reddish hue, and I don't think it would be a stretch to use a little crystal for that. I also like your hops selection. Looks really solid.

I realize I should just post my working draft. I'm planning to sub out wheat for some rye (not 1:1) and on going a little higher on IBUs. Those are the highlights. I'll add the whole thing tomorrow. I think dkennedy is planning to brew his closer to the recipe, which would be a good reference for us.

Here's mine.

Kottbusser!

 

[unionrdr]

Adding the .1oz molasses to make .6oz & the 4oz carared will give it a bit more of a ruddy amber/orange hue. I worked it up in BS2 from the Beersmith recipe & Brewtoad's as a sort of average I then tweaked. From what I've been reading so far, this is as close as I can get for the moment, as there is no "original" recipe from centuries ago.

 

[Barley_Bob]

...there is no "original" recipe from centuries ago.

Exactly. Like I said, I think it looks good, and I follow your thought process. The truth is almost certainly that there were a multitude of varieties of kottbusser, which should give us leeway to experiment. There's not much of a template to follow.

As promised, here's the version I'm planning. Have we heard any reference of rye? No. But I'm interpreting "harvest ale" to mean they mostly just used the grain coming in on wagons. If you were a German farmer, and you grew rye instead of wheat, you'd use rye. If you had extra honey, you'd toss it in. And then you'd compare notes with your neighbor who grew wheat.

Yeast, WL029 German Kolsch, starter used
RANGE ESTIMATED
OG 1.01.060
FG 1.015
IBU 30.64
Color SRM 5.54
BIAB, 75% anticipated efficiency, 90minute mash at 150
Boil: 90min
Final Volume: 5.5gal

Grain:
8lb German Pilsner
2lb Rye Malt
1lb Rolled Oats
2oz Aromatic Malt (in lieu of a decoction mash)

4oz Honey (to secondary)
2oz Light Molasses (to secondary)

Hops:
0.6oz Magnum FWH
1.0oz Spalt 15min
1.0oz Saaz 5min
1.0oz Hallertaur Dry Hop 5days

 

[unionrdr]

Looks like yours will have a bit more reddish color. This seems to be the gist of what my research shows. I'm thinking that more flavor can be had from the honey & molasses in secondary versus primary (ie boil). I'm glad you follow my words, as I've put increasing amounts of time into this one. After getting the Dampfbier so close to German originals, I'm starting to get a feel for for them. Just a start though. I can't wait till we all get some brewed to compare notes.
As far as being a harvest ale, I suppose regional or local variations on interpretations were possible & quite likely. They would of course want their version to stand out in the crowd without being out of style. It is rather odd that no original recipe exists though? If d kennedy's recipe is closer to the original, it could provide a good baseline as you say. Then compare samples of each to see which is the more preferable, or something along those lines?

 

[Barley_Bob]

They would of course want their version to stand out in the crowd without being out of style. It is rather odd that no original recipe exists though? If d kennedy's recipe is closer to the original, it could provide a good baseline as you say. Then compare samples of each to see which is the more preferable, or something along those lines?

I hear ya. I just can't imagine it was universally those 3 malts (pilsener, wheat, and oats). Similarly, if I make any other style of beer, I can use a huge variety of grains without being out of style. Even in its time period, there would have been variety within the style, and, had it not become illegal, the style would have evolved over time. In my head, at least, that's what I'm trying to replicate. I don't know if we'll find one that's preferable, but, hopefully, we'll get a good idea of what is possible within the guidelines and within one standard deviation of it. If we turn out 3 great beers, then I'll call it a resounding success. If one is wildly different, we'll have learned something else. Make any sense outside of my head?

 

[dkennedy]

My plan is to brew Mosher's recipe, with Canadian 2 row in place of the Pilsner malt (still burning through a sack). Plan to add the honey and molasses on transfer to the keg for lagering.

 

[dkennedy]

That said- I could see a reddish ale working very well, and a different malt bill could be interesting (Vienna?).

 

[unionrdr]

OK, reply, take two. Internet went out earlier, back & off again. Now back on again. Sheez. I think as long as we're sticking to the basic recipe with only minor variations, they'll be to style as much as is currently possible. When I get paid again, I'll order the ingredients. That'll give me two fermenters full, what with the ESB kit I have laying in wait. Then when all is said & done, maybe we can trade beers between each other for comparisons? I'd like to be able to do this before making inclusions to book 2 of my home brewing books. All credits will be given of course. I'll add a dissertation on local/regional variances in regard to the variances in recipes. So as to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions? How's that sound to y'all?

 

[Barley_Bob]

OK, reply, take two. Internet went out earlier, back & off again. Now back on again. Sheez. I think as long as we're sticking to the basic recipe with only minor variations, they'll be to style as much as is currently possible. When I get paid again, I'll order the ingredients. That'll give me two fermenters full, what with the ESB kit I have laying in wait. Then when all is said & done, maybe we can trade beers between each other for comparisons? I'd like to be able to do this before making inclusions to book 2 of my home brewing books. All credits will be given of course. I'll add a dissertation on local/regional variances in regard to the variances in recipes. So as to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions? How's that sound to y'all?

Sounds great to me. Pleasure to work with you.

 

[unionrdr]

I thought that would be the best way to go about it. Besides getting together on preserving/bring back a great old style. Better than just tossing a bunch of stuff together & calling it new. I love trying old styles anyway. But this will give some bit of immortality to contributors that's always kinda cool in it's own way.

 

[unionrdr]

Ordered the ingredients this morning. Added another twenty bucks for 2lbs of PBW, darn near out of that. Wonder how fast Midwest is now that the warehouse thing is squared away?

 

[Barley_Bob]

I dunno, man. I'm still waiting on my pilsner through LD Carlson. The holidays are, apparently, murder on freight. Maybe it'll turn up next week.

 

[myerstyson]

Wonder how fast Midwest is now that the warehouse thing is squared away?

Warehouse thing???

 

[unionrdr]

During last year, they redid their warehouse to combine with Northern Brewer. They're still separate businesses, but share the warehouse.

 

[The10mmKid]

Would a 50degF German lager yeast be out of style for this beer?

'da Kid

 

[fimpster]

Sub'd. Looking forward to following how this goes.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, it is an ale after all. But using WL029 Kolsch yeast, which gives lager-like characteristics, you probably could use a lager yeast. I'm not sure what the original intent of the beer was, having no records of the original from the 16th century surviving to today. Maybe it was intended to be a reddish-amber Kolsch style? Having wheat malt & pilsner malt though, it could also be a corruption of Dampfbier, which uses no wheat, but comes out a similar color & uses hefe yeast. I have the ingredients ordered from Midwest. So it'll be a week or so before it gets brewed up.

 

[Schemy]

I'm going to brew this, more to the Zymurgy recipe, but use some Red X as the base malt.

Should be cool, right?

 

[unionrdr]

Can you post your recipe for comparison? I couldn't find the Zymurgy recipe? @ barley bob- I dig your thoughts on variations & later developments had it survived as a style. I'm back on the fence about whether to add the honey & molasses at flame out or secondary again? The two amounts are so small that maybe secondary would leave a bit more flavor & a touch of sweetness when using the WL029 yeast? That yeast seems to be all about balance & crispness on the back. But a little residual flavor & sweetness seems to be to style as well? I'm getting real close to making the starter to brew this ale. * was reading this article that mentions the beer; http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20140116/LIFE/401160320?template=printart It says, " German beers typically don't have any ingredients other than water, malt, yeast & hops, but the kottbusser is brewed with honey & molasses. Despite the ingredients, the beer is not sweet. The reason for the honey & molasses is, in Germany, they used the first fermentables available to them, Laffler said. we use them to create the sensation of sweetness without it actually being sweet. We try to keep the aromatics. It's very, very dry. The trick is to trick people into thinking it's sweet". So it seems a flame out addition of the honey & molasses might be better? This is getting a bit conflicting...

 

[myerstyson]

I'm doing the Zymurgy recipe to the letter the weekend of 23 Jan. Going to change the avatar to one of the possible labels I'll use for it.

 

[Barley_Bob]

@ barley bob- I dig your thoughts on variations & later developments had it survived as a style. I'm back on the fence about whether to add the honey & molasses at flame out or secondary again? The two amounts are so small that maybe secondary would leave a bit more flavor & a touch of sweetness when using the WL029 yeast? That yeast seems to be all about balance & crispness on the back. But a little residual flavor & sweetness seems to be to style as well? I'm getting real close to making the starter to brew this ale. * was reading this article that mentions the beer; http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20140116/LIFE/401160320?template=printart It says, " German beers typically don't have any ingredients other than water, malt, yeast & hops, but the kottbusser is brewed with honey & molasses. Despite the ingredients, the beer is not sweet. The reason for the honey & molasses is, in Germany, they used the first fermentables available to them, Laffler said. we use them to create the sensation of sweetness without it actually being sweet. We try to keep the aromatics. It's very, very dry. The trick is to trick people into thinking it's sweet". So it seems a flame out addition of the honey & molasses might be better? This is getting a bit conflicting...

Good to hear I'm not crazy... It is all very muddled, which is why I like our shotgun approach. I don't know if we're hitting the mark, but we're bound to come close, and we'll all drink great beer (that I can guarantee).

I'm sticking to adding honey and molasses post primary. I have everything to brew this now, and I'll get it under way within the next couple of weeks.

 

[unionrdr]

I still need to get spring water & some more kerosene so it doesn't get too cold in the brewery during these double-digit, sub-zero temps. I've been thinking maybe since the WL029 yeast gives such good balance & that crispness on the back, that secondary with that small amount of honey & molasses would work? I got the un-sulfured kind of molasses.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I still need to get spring water & some more kerosene so it doesn't get too cold in the brewery during these double-digit, sub-zero temps. I've been thinking maybe since the WL029 yeast gives such good balance & that crispness on the back, that secondary with that small amount of honey & molasses would work? I got the un-sulfured kind of molasses.

Sounds good! Stay warm out there!!

I have a glass door leading to my back porch. I just set up my propane and kettle right there. I stay nice and toasty!

 

[unionrdr]

Patio doors were built into our house too, but no deck or patio. gusting winds in the arctic tundra outside. Itching to get brewin'! That way, both fermenters would be full.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Welp, I put my back out. That's one day wasted and one trip to the doctor. I can't even think about moving a bucket at this point (I need to dry hop too!). I'll brew this when I'm up and running again.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, the cold damp air is messing with my bad L2 dusk & hips again. Driving is terrible around here right now. Too many Alberta Clippers back to back. Still gonna try to get it brewed this weekend though. Just gotta do a small starter first.

 

[myerstyson]

Uh-oh, the only honey I can get here is raw. Do you guys think that'll be a problem? The Zymurgy recipe has me adding at it flame-out.

 

[unionrdr]

Flame out should be OK. With the wort being boiling hot & pasteurization happening in seconds @ 160F, it should do fine. Raw wildflower honey rocks!

 

[myerstyson]

@unionrdr, thanks so much. The honey in this country is incredible. I can't wait to brew this recipe.

I'm going to make mead from the honey as well.

 

[unionrdr]

I used to be able to get raw wildflower honey from folks I worked with at Ford that had colonies. But that disease came through the Africanized colonies a few years back & wiped them out. Even the store doesn't have it anymore. Lucky you. I gotta figure out how to pay electric bill & get the spring water to brew with too...

 

[bhchrist]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but here's the page of links Google came up with; https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kottbusser%20ale%20recipe%3F
May just have to make room for this one in the near future. Maybe in my 2nd home brewing book?
* Also found it on Beersmith; http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/600848/kottbusser It's an AG recipe, but could easily be converted to partial mash by subbing half or so of the pilsner malt.

So, that is my file. I didn't even know I shared it! It is the Zymurgy recipe. It is outstanding. It ended up finishing at 1.009 I think (don't have access to my brew day file, currently).

I use RO water and built it soft. The honey and molasses went in the last 10 minutes of the boil. Given how the beer tastes, I will be hard pressed to change a single thing. That doesn't mean I won't, but it is solid as is.

Checking my Brewbit log on fermentation:

Held between 58-60 degrees for the first 4 days
Slow ramp from 60 to 70 degrees over 5 days
Held at 70 for 3 days
Slow ramp down from 70 to 34 degrees over 14 days
Held at 34 for 18 days; keg and carb.

The yeast dropped out and it is quite clear. Maybe one of the clearest beers I have made. Very light in color. A pretty pint of beer.

Even though it finished dry, there is a sweet malt characteristic. The oats help with the body and mouthfeel. I had concerns for the IBUs and hop additions, as they seemed low, but I went with it. The FWH may have been my addition. I don't know the impact, but I will do the same thing again next brew and try for consistency.

Let me know if anyone has questions. I look forward to reading the results of others.

 

[bhchrist]

Flame out should be OK. With the wort being boiling hot & pasteurization happening in seconds @ 160F, it should do fine. Raw wildflower honey rocks!

That is what I used.

 

[unionrdr]

The WL029 yeast's sweet spot is 65-69F. How'd it perform at colder temps? It's designed not to need colder temps like other kolsch yeasts. That's what makes it unique.

 

[bhchrist]

It worked wonderfully. I read a lot about it prior to using it and decided to go cooler initially and ramp up. I used a good sized starter. If I remember correctly, W029 also drops much better than Wyeast's strain.

 

[unionrdr]

WL029 was the steadiest fermenter I ever saw. Drops out clear, except for my hybrid lager that I think had some starch haze. But it creates a great balance of flavors with a bit of crispness on the back. Good yeast. It also makes for a beer that stores quite well in my experiences with it. So I just couldn't resist trying it for this kottbusser. It should make for a very tasty, sessionable beer in older traditions.

 

[bhchrist]

Good to know. I read good things about it and am very happy with my first experience. Have you used 2565 (or Kolsch II 2575)?

I brewed an off-style, higher ABV dark, malty red a little while ago and was using the 1968 ESB. As this was a last minute 3 gallon stove brew, I didn't make a starter and just pitched two packs of yeast. Turns out one of the two was the Wyeast Kolsch that someone at the LHBS must have put with the 1968. Did not like what it brought to the table. Then again, it wasn't invited to the table. If I blend 20% of my RIS with the Red, it works.

 

[unionrdr]

I haven't used the other kolsch yeasts, as they need lower temps than WL029 does. I got an ESB about done with rehydrated S-04 that comes out balanced real well with a crisp finish. Itchin' to get to brewin' the kottbusser already. Just can't drive fubared car yet.