Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[Schemy]

I'm going to brew this, more to the Zymurgy recipe, but use some Red X as the base malt.

Should be cool, right?

 

[unionrdr]

Can you post your recipe for comparison? I couldn't find the Zymurgy recipe? @ barley bob- I dig your thoughts on variations & later developments had it survived as a style. I'm back on the fence about whether to add the honey & molasses at flame out or secondary again? The two amounts are so small that maybe secondary would leave a bit more flavor & a touch of sweetness when using the WL029 yeast? That yeast seems to be all about balance & crispness on the back. But a little residual flavor & sweetness seems to be to style as well? I'm getting real close to making the starter to brew this ale. * was reading this article that mentions the beer; http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20140116/LIFE/401160320?template=printart It says, " German beers typically don't have any ingredients other than water, malt, yeast & hops, but the kottbusser is brewed with honey & molasses. Despite the ingredients, the beer is not sweet. The reason for the honey & molasses is, in Germany, they used the first fermentables available to them, Laffler said. we use them to create the sensation of sweetness without it actually being sweet. We try to keep the aromatics. It's very, very dry. The trick is to trick people into thinking it's sweet". So it seems a flame out addition of the honey & molasses might be better? This is getting a bit conflicting...

 

[myerstyson]

I'm doing the Zymurgy recipe to the letter the weekend of 23 Jan. Going to change the avatar to one of the possible labels I'll use for it.

 

[Barley_Bob]

@ barley bob- I dig your thoughts on variations & later developments had it survived as a style. I'm back on the fence about whether to add the honey & molasses at flame out or secondary again? The two amounts are so small that maybe secondary would leave a bit more flavor & a touch of sweetness when using the WL029 yeast? That yeast seems to be all about balance & crispness on the back. But a little residual flavor & sweetness seems to be to style as well? I'm getting real close to making the starter to brew this ale. * was reading this article that mentions the beer; http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20140116/LIFE/401160320?template=printart It says, " German beers typically don't have any ingredients other than water, malt, yeast & hops, but the kottbusser is brewed with honey & molasses. Despite the ingredients, the beer is not sweet. The reason for the honey & molasses is, in Germany, they used the first fermentables available to them, Laffler said. we use them to create the sensation of sweetness without it actually being sweet. We try to keep the aromatics. It's very, very dry. The trick is to trick people into thinking it's sweet". So it seems a flame out addition of the honey & molasses might be better? This is getting a bit conflicting...

Good to hear I'm not crazy... It is all very muddled, which is why I like our shotgun approach. I don't know if we're hitting the mark, but we're bound to come close, and we'll all drink great beer (that I can guarantee).

I'm sticking to adding honey and molasses post primary. I have everything to brew this now, and I'll get it under way within the next couple of weeks.

 

[unionrdr]

I still need to get spring water & some more kerosene so it doesn't get too cold in the brewery during these double-digit, sub-zero temps. I've been thinking maybe since the WL029 yeast gives such good balance & that crispness on the back, that secondary with that small amount of honey & molasses would work? I got the un-sulfured kind of molasses.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I still need to get spring water & some more kerosene so it doesn't get too cold in the brewery during these double-digit, sub-zero temps. I've been thinking maybe since the WL029 yeast gives such good balance & that crispness on the back, that secondary with that small amount of honey & molasses would work? I got the un-sulfured kind of molasses.

Sounds good! Stay warm out there!!

I have a glass door leading to my back porch. I just set up my propane and kettle right there. I stay nice and toasty!

 

[unionrdr]

Patio doors were built into our house too, but no deck or patio. gusting winds in the arctic tundra outside. Itching to get brewin'! That way, both fermenters would be full.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Welp, I put my back out. That's one day wasted and one trip to the doctor. I can't even think about moving a bucket at this point (I need to dry hop too!). I'll brew this when I'm up and running again.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, the cold damp air is messing with my bad L2 dusk & hips again. Driving is terrible around here right now. Too many Alberta Clippers back to back. Still gonna try to get it brewed this weekend though. Just gotta do a small starter first.

 

[myerstyson]

Uh-oh, the only honey I can get here is raw. Do you guys think that'll be a problem? The Zymurgy recipe has me adding at it flame-out.

 

[unionrdr]

Flame out should be OK. With the wort being boiling hot & pasteurization happening in seconds @ 160F, it should do fine. Raw wildflower honey rocks!

 

[myerstyson]

@unionrdr, thanks so much. The honey in this country is incredible. I can't wait to brew this recipe.

I'm going to make mead from the honey as well.

 

[unionrdr]

I used to be able to get raw wildflower honey from folks I worked with at Ford that had colonies. But that disease came through the Africanized colonies a few years back & wiped them out. Even the store doesn't have it anymore. Lucky you. I gotta figure out how to pay electric bill & get the spring water to brew with too...

 

[bhchrist]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but here's the page of links Google came up with; https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kottbusser%20ale%20recipe%3F
May just have to make room for this one in the near future. Maybe in my 2nd home brewing book?
* Also found it on Beersmith; http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/600848/kottbusser It's an AG recipe, but could easily be converted to partial mash by subbing half or so of the pilsner malt.

So, that is my file. I didn't even know I shared it! It is the Zymurgy recipe. It is outstanding. It ended up finishing at 1.009 I think (don't have access to my brew day file, currently).

I use RO water and built it soft. The honey and molasses went in the last 10 minutes of the boil. Given how the beer tastes, I will be hard pressed to change a single thing. That doesn't mean I won't, but it is solid as is.

Checking my Brewbit log on fermentation:

Held between 58-60 degrees for the first 4 days
Slow ramp from 60 to 70 degrees over 5 days
Held at 70 for 3 days
Slow ramp down from 70 to 34 degrees over 14 days
Held at 34 for 18 days; keg and carb.

The yeast dropped out and it is quite clear. Maybe one of the clearest beers I have made. Very light in color. A pretty pint of beer.

Even though it finished dry, there is a sweet malt characteristic. The oats help with the body and mouthfeel. I had concerns for the IBUs and hop additions, as they seemed low, but I went with it. The FWH may have been my addition. I don't know the impact, but I will do the same thing again next brew and try for consistency.

Let me know if anyone has questions. I look forward to reading the results of others.

 

[bhchrist]

Flame out should be OK. With the wort being boiling hot & pasteurization happening in seconds @ 160F, it should do fine. Raw wildflower honey rocks!

That is what I used.

 

[unionrdr]

The WL029 yeast's sweet spot is 65-69F. How'd it perform at colder temps? It's designed not to need colder temps like other kolsch yeasts. That's what makes it unique.

 

[bhchrist]

It worked wonderfully. I read a lot about it prior to using it and decided to go cooler initially and ramp up. I used a good sized starter. If I remember correctly, W029 also drops much better than Wyeast's strain.

 

[unionrdr]

WL029 was the steadiest fermenter I ever saw. Drops out clear, except for my hybrid lager that I think had some starch haze. But it creates a great balance of flavors with a bit of crispness on the back. Good yeast. It also makes for a beer that stores quite well in my experiences with it. So I just couldn't resist trying it for this kottbusser. It should make for a very tasty, sessionable beer in older traditions.

 

[bhchrist]

Good to know. I read good things about it and am very happy with my first experience. Have you used 2565 (or Kolsch II 2575)?

I brewed an off-style, higher ABV dark, malty red a little while ago and was using the 1968 ESB. As this was a last minute 3 gallon stove brew, I didn't make a starter and just pitched two packs of yeast. Turns out one of the two was the Wyeast Kolsch that someone at the LHBS must have put with the 1968. Did not like what it brought to the table. Then again, it wasn't invited to the table. If I blend 20% of my RIS with the Red, it works.

 

[unionrdr]

I haven't used the other kolsch yeasts, as they need lower temps than WL029 does. I got an ESB about done with rehydrated S-04 that comes out balanced real well with a crisp finish. Itchin' to get to brewin' the kottbusser already. Just can't drive fubared car yet.

 

[myerstyson]

Got my ingredients in the mail. I'll be brewing on Sunday!

 

[Barley_Bob]

I'm making my starter today... Maybe I'm being a tad optimistic about my ability to brew in the near future, but I've been waiting so long to brew this already that it is killing me! I helped a friend with a batch on Monday (we did it MLK style - strong and black), and I've got the bug bad.

 

[unionrdr]

I gotta pay a bill in the next couple days, so I'll be getting the spring water then to make a starter & brew it up. Been wanting to get this going.

 

[myerstyson]

OK, as this'll be only my fourth batch since returning to homebrewing (20 year hiatus), and my first non-kit batch, I have to ask this question, so I don't screw this up.

I'm following the Zymurgy partial mash recipe, but due to my current duty station, I am using DME. I used a useful page (on home computer, can't remember URL) to convert the LME amounts to DME. So I'm 99% sure I've got those amounts correct.

But do I have to change the amount of honey and molasses? The Zymurgy article calls for 1.3oz of honey and 0.6oz of molasses.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You're right to run a conversion to go from LME to DME (DME has more sugar per pound). You don't need to make any change to the amount of molasses or honey (unless you adjust the entire recipe to make the beer bigger or smaller).

 

[myerstyson]

Done. I got 1.042 FG. I converted the Zymurgy article to DME, so not sure how I got different, but there you are. It tasted okay, when I drank the gravity sample.

It was fun. I learned a lot. For example, I presume I should have let the 0 minute hops sit in the wort for a bit before I started to cool. I only say this because I left the bag with the hops in the kettle while the wort chiller was working. Then, when I got the wort down to 70*, the bag dropped to the bottom. I had to take my (sanitized) spoon and find it, disturbing the trub/protein/whatever on the bottom till I finally found that damn bag.

I think in the future, I'll let the wort sit for 10-15 min (what do you think?) with the hop bag in, before I start the chiller, then remove the hop bag before I start the chiller. Does that sound like a good plan?

Otherwise went pretty well. I deviated from the Zymurgy recipe. I had put the FWH in right after I removed the mashing grains (1.5lbs of 6-row and 0.75lbs of flaked oats). It took about 15 minutes to get up to a boil, so I counted that as the 90-75th min of the wort boil, so when the boil started, I added the Magnum hops and started the clock at 75:00.

Otherwise, I followed the Zymurgy recipe.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I never do a "0 minute" addition. If I'm going to add something post boil, I'll just do a whirlpool. I really do that for two reasons - First, to maximize the flavor I'm getting out of those hops, and second, so that I can calculate the ibu contribution. I don't quite get why anyone would toss in a 0 minute addition and then chill. Maybe someone can fill me in.

When I do a whirlpool, I let the temp drift down to ~180, add my hops, and then give it periodic stirs over 30 minutes. I don't use a hop bag. When all is said and done, I just add everything to the fermenter. It definitely doesn't hurt anything, and it's a lot easier.

So, to summarize, I would do a whirlpool, then add the chiller and run it, and then I would just dump it all in the fermenter.

The 75minute boil shouldn't be a big deal... you should be careful working with this much pilsner malt, as it throws off a lot of DMS. 90 minute boils are common in pilsner based brews for this reason. But 75 is better than 60, and I think you'll probably be fine. I would just do the full 90 next time.

Anyway, glad to hear everything went well! Keep us posted! A friend of mine might come over this week and help me brew this (lift the kettles and buckets). Hopefully, we'll all be drinking Kottbusser in the near future.

 

[myerstyson]

Thanks @Barley_Bob.

The Kottbusser is bubbling away here at ~24 hours since pitching. I'm getting a bubble every 2-3 seconds. w00t!

 

[unionrdr]

I hate having to wait til tomorrow to get my son to take me out bill paying so I can get the spring water & ice. So it'll likely be tomorrow before I get the starter going. This is finally going to happen very soon. Tough since he works 2 jobs & my car is down. Recipe & ingredients are at the ready for my pb/pm biab version of two different recipes I worked up in BS2. Dang, I can't wait to get this going finally. Then maybe we can do an early spring bottle swap or something? I still think it'd be good input on style experiments to nail it as much as possible.

 

[myerstyson]

A bubble every second this morning, at about 36 hours since pitching!