Keg Line Length?

[jgourd]

What physics? You're using an empirical formula, not one based in physics. If you were using physics, (really fluid dynamics), you'd need a LOT more information, (wall smoothness, is the line coiled or not, how tight is the coil, where and how many restrictions, turbulence inducing points, etc are there?).

I said this in another post, it seems Todd and I disagree. Some say 5' of line works, some say 10' of line works. All I know is that if 5' of line ISN'T working, you should try 10' of line. There's no "right way" to do this, just figure out how to pour your beer, whatever it takes.

Wait. I know most people use the published formulas and tables all over the place. I have used them too. But you assume that I haven't researched the specifics of the issue. Of course there are a lot more variables at play, but for the sake of serving beer, many of them can be ignored or estimated. And yes, I've looked at more specifics such as friction coefficient of the vinyl hose (which actually varies from brand to brand), coils, tees, elbows, etc, fluid density (we assume 1 which is imprecise) and viscosity, and so on. I don't think anyone is trying to start an argument, but what's wrong with a little edumacation on the subject. Someone might actually learn something. Oh drat!

 

[RichBenn]

I noticed the last comment about companies using longer lines. 10' of beer line is much more than is needed in the vast majority of sytems. As the owner of a draft beer company I believe it is important to determine the correct restriction length and then use that length on a system. For a standard, typical direct draw system 5' of beer line is more that you need. Putting 10' on will slow down the pour and offers no advantage unless you are serving an extremely highly carbonated beer. If you are getting foam at 12PSI with beer carbonated to serve between 10 and 14PSI your issue is with something other than hose length. It is due to temperature or the beer was carbonated to a rate higher than 12PSI equivalent (due to mistake) If you are serving your beer at 18PSI, you would need longer hose, but it would still not be 10', it would be 6' or 7'. I recently had a customer email me after reading suggestions on Homebrew talk saying his beer line should be 10' long asking why were were being "Cheap" and not installing longer beer lines. My first reaction was to start using longer beer lines, but I know that 10' is way to long and 95% of our customers have great results using 5' beer lines. I think changing the length would have negative results for many customers, including longer pour time, too much beer line to deal with in small spaces and increased cost for something that will give no benefit. We are always happy to put on whatever beer length you desire. Just call us and we will make the change for you. I just don't believe "more is better" is the correct philosophy. I believe it is better to get the correct length and use that.

No offense, but I HAVE one of your systems; 5 feet is TOO short, even at 11 PSI at 42-44 degrees. Now I don't have a tower, and the tap is only slightly higher than the top of the keg, and I am at higher altitude. I ran two different spreadsheets and all said about 3.5-4 feet was the correct length. Not true! 5 feet is too short. More resistance is needed.

I had not believed all those that say that starting with 10 feet and then going down in size is the way to go. I was smug, being an engineer, and didn't order extra line. Well, I was wrong. I do know enough that the formulas work, so one or more of the assumptions are wrong. The line undoubtedly has lower resistance than the formulas, the regulators are probably not all that accurate, and who knows if my temperature regulation is that good. Doesn't matter, really. ALOT of people here are having problems with too short of line. They get by by adding restrictors or longer line.

Nothing at all wrong with doing what works.

 

[rawlus]

great post bobby. thanks for getting my back.

 

[AlchemyBrewing]

So what is my problem then. I am running an upright keezer at about 38-40f. I am at about 9-10' of line and am using about 10psi. I dropped it from 12 because I was getting so much foam. I don't know if my beer is carbonated perfectly to style but it is carbonated to my tastes. I still am getting 1/2 to 3/4 pint of foam. If I poor a couple like that then I am good for the next few.

Very frustrating that is for sure.

 

[WilliamstonBrew]

So what is my problem then. I am running an upright keezer at about 38-40f. I am at about 9-10' of line and am using about 10psi. I dropped it from 12 because I was getting so much foam. I don't know if my beer is carbonated perfectly to style but it is carbonated to my tastes. I still am getting 1/2 to 3/4 pint of foam. If I poor a couple like that then I am good for the next few.

Very frustrating that is for sure.

I had similar frustrations when I started kegging. I used 6' lines first, then upped to 7' and finally said screw it and put 10' lines on. No problems now.

My advice is to just go longer lines... just go 12' of 3/16 and see what happens. I currently have 10' of 3/16 lines on 39 degree kegs at 13 PSI and the only time I get any appreciable foam is with a first pour (I don't cool my lines). Even then I can mitigate it by doing a quick blast from the faucet, let it sit a few seconds, then resume pouring.

Longer lines = less frustration. I coil the lines and twist-tie them together in a couple of spots and set them on top of the kegs. It's tidy.

 

[shortyjacobs]

So what is my problem then. I am running an upright keezer at about 38-40f. I am at about 9-10' of line and am using about 10psi. I dropped it from 12 because I was getting so much foam. I don't know if my beer is carbonated perfectly to style but it is carbonated to my tastes. I still am getting 1/2 to 3/4 pint of foam. If I poor a couple like that then I am good for the next few.

Very frustrating that is for sure.

How do you carb your beer? Do you have a tower or through wall taps or picnic taps? Does your second beer pour as foamy as the first? (if you pour one after the other?)

 

[RichBenn]

So what is my problem then. I am running an upright keezer at about 38-40f. I am at about 9-10' of line and am using about 10psi. I dropped it from 12 because I was getting so much foam. I don't know if my beer is carbonated perfectly to style but it is carbonated to my tastes. I still am getting 1/2 to 3/4 pint of foam. If I poor a couple like that then I am good for the next few.

Very frustrating that is for sure.

There is a secondary effect going on besides the line length. IF you are getting good pours after the first or second pour (in succession), this is an indicator that your line and/or faucet is not as cold as the keg. Once you pour 1 or two, it's then cold and pours good. Let it sit, and it's no longer cold, pouring foam the first pour.

Lot's of people put in fans or glycol coolers on the line and/or the faucet to ensure it's cold.

 

[AlchemyBrewing]

There is a secondary effect going on besides the line length. IF you are getting good pours after the first or second pour (in succession), this is an indicator that your line and/or faucet is not as cold as the keg. Once you pour 1 or two, it's then cold and pours good. Let it sit, and it's no longer cold, pouring foam the first pour.

Lot's of people put in fans or glycol coolers on the line and/or the faucet to ensure it's cold.

That is what baffles me. It is a vertical keezer. Lines and shanks all in the freezer coming out the door. No tower or anything else like that. I know it is holding temp pretty well since the probe is in the center and it is not cycling too often. I just don't see how it could be the temp, but nothing else makes sense to me either.

 

[shortyjacobs]

That is what baffles me. It is a vertical keezer. Lines and shanks all in the freezer coming out the door. No tower or anything else like that. I know it is holding temp pretty well since the probe is in the center and it is not cycling too often. I just don't see how it could be the temp, but nothing else makes sense to me either.

Ok then, answer the other questions:
How do you carb your beer? Does your second beer pour as foamy as the first? (if you pour one after the other?)

 

[AlchemyBrewing]

I force carb. After the first beer the following pours get much better.

 

[shortyjacobs]

I force carb. After the first beer the following pours get much better.

Any chance you are overcarbing?

 

[AlchemyBrewing]

I suppose but I don't think so. I am following the the steps for force carbing pretty closely with a long time for conditioning.

 

[Hopheader]

Hey folks, just chiming in here. I kegged my first (that's right--Number One) beer and it was a hefeweizen. Took me awhile when I realized that the 'stock' line I had was 4' long that that's why I was pouring a lot of foam although the beer wasn't really carbonated. Then I was passed some interesting reading for my SECOND keg.

http://draughtquality.org/f/DBQM_Full.pdf

It is very in depth but as I've learned as a new-to-kegging person--read before you pour. I also started second time around with a roll of 10'. I didn't have the patience to start with the full 10' and cut back until I got where I needed to be (for THAT beer's CO2 vols, THAT temperature, etc) so I did calculations. And did them again.

Distance from center of keg to tap. Check.
Temperature of the beer. Check.
Diameter of the serving hosing. Check.
Desired CO2 volumes. Check.

Oh hey look at that. LOVING my pour at full-open with picture-perfect head and carbonation is just right. (for THIS beer style)

(for the record, I ended up at just over 5' of hosing 3/16")