First time Keg user

[Architect-Dave]

So, I finished fermenting a German ale. I cleaned and sanitized by corny keg and transferred the beer to it. I have it in the kegerator and connected to the CO2 at 10.5 psi (per the Brewfather calculations). It will be carbonated in approximately 10 day. Was I (or should I) supposed to remove the co2 line and let the beer cold crash before actually carbonating the beer? Or, does it matter because it will take about a week to carbonate?

 

[day_trippr]

I don't think it matters if you had the gas line connected immediately after racking, the beer's gonna do what it's gonna do either way.

Also, it'll likely take more than 10 days. Ime, it takes 2 weeks plus a couple of days to reach equilibrium at ~2.4 volumes for five gallons of a typical pale ale or ipa using chart pressure alone...

Cheers!

 

[Architect-Dave]

I don't think it matters if you had the gas line connected immediately after racking, the beer's gonna do what it's gonna do either way.

Also, it'll likely take more than 10 days. Ime, it takes 2 weeks plus a couple of days to reach equilibrium at ~2.4 volumes for five gallons of a typical pale ale or ipa using chart pressure alone...

Cheers!

Thanks…I am a newbie at this…

 

[Deadalus]

I think I get why you are asking. If you wanted X vols of CO2, you still need to pick a temperature, which I am guessing you picked serving temperature and the result you got was 10.5 psi. But you are thinking about how the beer is warm to start with? You could carb to that same X vols of CO2 while keeping the keg at the higher temp then cut the CO2 off and cool the keg. This would require a higher psi initially. After cooling, you could turn the CO2 back on to 10.5 psi. Or you could leave on but turn down to 10.5 when you begin chilling. I think carbing warm this way uses more CO2 but I'm not certain.

But you can just set to 10.5 psi, CO2 on, and cool it as it will chill much faster than carbing. In other words, the beer won't reach eqilibrium before it cools. Some fast carb techniques maybe could beat chilling but those would be special cases.

 

[Architect-Dave]

I think I get why you are asking. If you wanted X vols of CO2, you still need to pick a temperature, which I am guessing you picked serving temperature and the result you got was 10.5 psi. But you are thinking about how the beer is warm to start with? You could carb to that same X vols of CO2 while keeping the keg at the higher temp then cut the CO2 off and cool the keg. This would require a higher psi initially. After cooling, you could turn the CO2 back on to 10.5 psi. Or you could leave on but turn down to 10.5 when you begin chilling. I think carbing warm this way uses more CO2 but I'm not certain.

But you can just set to 10.5 psi, CO2 on, and cool it as it will chill much faster than carbing. In other words, the beer won't reach eqilibrium before it cools. Some fast carb techniques maybe could beat chilling but those would be special cases.

This is helpful information. But, my question was not about that. I have read bout cold crashing your beer. So, I was not sure if you had to cold crash to clear the beer prior to charging it with CO2. Or, if charging it with CO2 can occur during the cold crashing. Basically, do they have to be separate things.

 

[Broken Crow]

Was I (or should I) supposed to remove the co2 line and let the beer cold crash

No.

f charging it with CO2 can occur during the cold crashing.

Yes.
When I first started kegging, I transfered to the keg at room temp and moved the keg to a 32° room, plugged in the CO2 and left it. If you pressurize it warm and disconnect, the pressure will drop as it cools, possibly to the point of creating a vacuum and sucking in air around the lid o-ring....keep the CO2 connected as it cools.
On a side note; How'd things go with setting up your new kegerator? Sounds like you've got it up an running.

 

[Deadalus]

This is helpful information. But, my question was not about that. I have read bout cold crashing your beer. So, I was not sure if you had to cold crash to clear the beer prior to charging it with CO2. Or, if charging it with CO2 can occur during the cold crashing. Basically, do they have to be separate things.

My bad Dave, I've seen people ask a similar question and that was the basis for asking. As far as cold crashing I don't know of any significant reason carbonation will affect clearing the beer. In my own experience when lagering (and not necessarily lagers), it usually takes at least 4 weeks (under carbonation to get it carbed) to see good clearing results without some sort of active process, like fining or filtering. Time is important and then other variables can affect how long it takes. If you're not using a floating dip tube, your last draw on the keg is usually the clearest! That's because the sediment is continuously removed by the dip tube at the bottom.

 

[Architect-Dave]

My bad Dave, I've seen people ask a similar question and that was the basis for asking. As far as cold crashing I don't know of any significant reason carbonation will affect clearing the beer. In my own experience when lagering (and not necessarily lagers), it usually takes at least 4 weeks (under carbonation to get it carbed) to see good clearing results without some sort of active process, like fining or filtering. Time is important and then other variables can affect how long it takes. If you're not using a floating dip tube, your last draw on the keg is usually the clearest! That's because the sediment is continuously removed by the dip tube at the bottom.

No worries…this is extremely helpful information!

 

[Architect-Dave]

No.

Yes.
When I first started kegging, I transfered to the keg at room temp and moved the keg to a 32° room, plugged in the CO2 and left it. If you pressurize it warm and disconnect, the pressure will drop as it cools, possibly to the point of creating a vacuum and sucking in air around the lid o-ring....keep the CO2 connected as it cools.
On a side note; How'd things go with setting up your new kegerator? Sounds like you've got it up a hanks. running.

Thanks. I will let it ride! As for the setup, it is pretty sweet. Three Nuka-tap faucets, 3 Corny kegs, dual regulator and an expired CO2 tank, which the local paint ball place just swapped out for a current one. All in for about $275.00 so i am not complaining. I did get new hoses, o-rings and ball lock connectors. I am noticing a lot of frost building up on the chill plate within the fridge, but I am getting a thermostat so I can get the temperature just right. We will see how it goes. I am going to expect my first few kegged batches to have some glitches until I figure things out.

 

[pvpeacock]

If I have room in my keezer, the newly filled keg goes right in on CO2 with no cold crashing. I figure anything left in the beer will sink to the bottom while the keg sits in the keezer. In addition, all of my kegs have floating dip tubes, so I'm drawing the clearest beer from the top anyway. If the keezer if full, I add 1/2 cup of sugar to the keg, transfer the beer to the keg, purge the headspace with CO2 and let it sit and naturally carbonate at room temp for the next 2 weeks.

 

[Architect-Dave]

If I have room in my keezer, the newly filled keg goes right in on CO2 with no cold crashing. I figure anything left in the beer will sink to the bottom while the keg sits in the keezer. In addition, all of my kegs have floating dip tubes, so I'm drawing the clearest beer from the top anyway. If the keezer if full, I add 1/2 cup of sugar to the keg, transfer the beer to the keg, purge the headspace with CO2 and let it sit and naturally carbonate at room temp for the next 2 weeks.

Nice! I have a floating dip tube in the keg as well. Looking forward to sanitizing my lines and faucet and drawing that first glass…

 

[Prince William]

Some good information. I am just starting to keg also. I want to get the information right. So I cold crashed the beer before transferring to the keg cold. I set the CO2 at 12 psi and charged the keg and purged while the CO2 was hooked up. Then removed the CO2 and placed the keg in the fridge for a few weeks to carbonate. Should I have left the CO2 hooked up to the keg or did I do right by removing it? Thanks for your advice.

 

[pvpeacock]

The keg has to remain hooked up to the CO2 at 12 psi in the kegerator or keezer for about 2 weeks to get fully carbonated. This is called by many the "set and forget" method of carbonating. You can also speed up the process by shaking the keg in what is called the "burst" carbonation method. Search the threads for discussions of both. However, in both methods, the keg has to be attached to the CO2.

 

[pvpeacock]

Note also: If you set the CO2 at 12 psi, the keg has to be cold to get the proper carbonation level. If you are trying to carbonate it at room temperature, the psi has to be set much higher. Google or search for threads for the "carbonation chart" which will show you the proper psi depending on the beer/keg temperature and carbonation levels desired.

 

[Prince William]

Note also: If you set the CO2 at 12 psi, the keg has to be cold to get the proper carbonation level. If you are trying to carbonate it at room temperature, the psi has to be set much higher. Google or search for threads for the "carbonation chart" which will show you the proper psi depending on the beer/keg temperature and carbonation levels desired.

Ok the kegs were cold. I’ll hook up the CO2 back up. Thanks for the information.

 

[doug293cz]

I think carbing warm this way uses more CO2 but I'm not certain.

Not really. 1 volume of carbonation is equal to 1.977 g/L of CO2 in the beer, independent of temperature (neglecting the slight volume change of the beer with temperature.) However, if you have a lot of headspace in the keg, then force carbonating warm can use somewhat more CO2, as there will be more CO2 in the headspace due to the higher pressure, but a "full" keg only has about 1 L of headspace, and the extra CO2 in the headspace at higher temps will only be 1 - 2 g. Any excess CO2 in the headspace due to higher pressure at higher temperature will come into equilibrium with the chilled beer eventually. All of this can be calculated if you know all of the initial conditions, and are nerdy enough to care (author raises his hand here .)

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Some good information. I am just starting to keg also. I want to get the information right. So I cold crashed the beer before transferring to the keg cold. I set the CO2 at 12 psi and charged the keg and purged while the CO2 was hooked up. Then removed the CO2 and placed the keg in the fridge for a few weeks to carbonate. Should I have left the CO2 hooked up to the keg or did I do right by removing it? Thanks for your advice.

To explain why the CO2 has to remain hooked up to carbonate:

As stated above, 1 volume of carbonation is equal to 1.977 g/L of CO2 in solution. Total keg volume is about 20 L, and 5 gal is about 19 L, leaving ~1 L of headspace. Beer after fermentation at ale temps will have about 0.85 volumes of carbonation. 12 psi @ 32°F results in 2.88 volumes of carbonation at equilibrium, so to reach equilibrium carb you need to add an additional 2.03 volumes of CO2 to the beer. This requires 2.03 * 19 L * 1.977 g/L = 76 g of additional CO2. 1 L of headspace at 12 psi and 32°F contains 1 L * 1,977 g/L * (12 psi + 14.7 psi) / 14.7 psi = 3.6 g of CO2. So, there is nowhere near enough CO2 in the headspace to carbonate the beer if you don't supply continuous replenishment of the CO2 that gets absorbed into beer while carbonating.

Brew on

 

[Deadalus]

Addressing Architect-Dave's underlying question a little further, a brewer's process & equipment play a role here. My keezer is set at 44F. If I have space in my ferm chamber/mini fridge, I can drop the temp lower than the keezer. I could thus leave a carboy to cold crash or a keg in there to lager. That would clear a little faster than in the keezer. Now that I have unitanks and a glycol chiller, I can cold crash/lager in the unitank. I don't like to work the glycol chiller too hard though, so I don't keep a brew in there too long past when it's "done" fermenting. However it's nice to give the batch some cold time to get yeast to flocculate, hops to settle, and dump those and any trub if I haven't already done so. Anything lagering in a keg and maybe in the unitank, I will carbonate. You can't carbonate in a fermenter that can't handle pressure though. In that scenario, someone might cold crash/lager in say a carboy first to get clearer beer into the keg. So they might write or explain it that way. Next brewer might say they transferred to a keg after primary fermentation finished, connected the CO2, and stuck it the fridge to cold crash/lager. New kegger is just trying to not blow up the garage and get their lines tight while wondering why Brewers A & B finish packaging in somewhat opposite fashion.

 

[Deadalus]

To explain why the CO2 has to remain hooked up to carbonate:

As stated above, 1 volume of carbonation is equal to 1.977 g/L of CO2 in solution. Total keg volume is about 20 L, and 5 gal is about 19 L, leaving ~1 L of headspace. Beer after fermentation at ale temps will have about 0.85 volumes of carbonation. 12 psi @ 32°F results in 2.88 volumes of carbonation at equilibrium, so to reach equilibrium carb you need to add an additional 2.03 volumes of CO2 to the beer. This requires 2.03 * 19 L * 1.977 g/L = 76 g of additional CO2. 1 L of headspace at 12 psi and 32°F contains 1 L * 1,977 g/L * (12 psi + 14.7 psi) / 14.7 psi = 3.6 g of CO2. So, there is nowhere near enough CO2 in the headspace to carbonate the beer if you don't supply continuous replenishment of the CO2 that gets absorbed into beer while carbonating.

Brew on

This I get but volumes itself is not something I ever remember being mentioned in Chemistry. If you burst carb and include shaking the keg, with experience it is evident that even at higher temperatures you would need to keep the gas on if you know that the process needs to reach equilibrium. Particularly with little head space. Charging the keg with 30 psi the regulator will stop the flow but shake it up and more gas starts flowing. I think some people leave it on for a set time but I turn it off and come back one or more times in the first day or so and hit it again at 30, and after I will drop down to the lower psi since the keg is chilled.

 

[Deadalus]

Not really. 1 volume of carbonation is equal to 1.977 g/L of CO2 in the beer, independent of temperature (neglecting the slight volume change of the beer with temperature.) However, if you have a lot of headspace in the keg, then force carbonating warm can use somewhat more CO2, as there will be more CO2 in the headspace due to the higher pressure, but a "full" keg only has about 1 L of headspace, and the extra CO2 in the headspace at higher temps will only be 1 - 2 g. Any excess CO2 in the headspace due to higher pressure at higher temperature will come into equilibrium with the chilled beer eventually. All of this can be calculated if you know all of the initial conditions, and are nerdy enough to care (author raises his hand here .)

Brew on

Strictly not practically, for a keg with a set volume, by mass you end putting more CO2 in if the keg is at a greater temperature vs when it is at lower temperature when aiming for a specific vols of CO2? I'm nerdy enough to care that there is a theoretical difference, but I would need a bit of a refresher to actually calculate it properly!

 

[doug293cz]

Strictly not practically, for a keg with a set volume, by mass you end putting more CO2 in if the keg is at a greater temperature vs when it is at lower temperature when aiming for a specific vols of CO2? I'm nerdy enough to care that there is a theoretical difference, but I would need a bit of a refresher to actually calculate it properly!

Strickly speaking yes, you would use slightly more CO2 when carbonating at a higher temperature, but as I stated above, we are only talking about 1 - 2 g of CO2 out of a total added CO2 of 60 - 80 g. And, it will make no detectable difference from a sensory standpoint, nor would you likely be able to measure any difference with the accuracy of the typical homebrew equipment. This is a tree falling in a forest - it happens, but you don't know it and it doesn't affect you.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

This I get but volumes itself is not something I ever remember being mentioned in Chemistry. If you burst carb and include shaking the keg, with experience it is evident that even at higher temperatures you would need to keep the gas on if you know that the process needs to reach equilibrium. Particularly with little head space. Charging the keg with 30 psi the regulator will stop the flow but shake it up and more gas starts flowing. I think some people leave it on for a set time but I turn it off and come back one or more times in the first day or so and hit it again at 30, and after I will drop down to the lower psi since the keg is chilled.

I have only heard about "volumes of carbonation" in the context of beverages, and carbonated beverages never came up in any of my chemistry classes either.

Brew on

 

[SFC Rudy]

This is what I recommend to brewers that are beginning to keg or are having problems.

Do the math.

1. Piece of advice, ignore everyone’s “rules of thumb”. Unless they have the exact same system that you have what they do will not work right for you.

2. Pick a carbonation method:

https://byo.com/article/3-ways-to-carbonate-your-keg-techniques/

https://byo.com/article/carbonating-options-kegging/ You may need to degas your beer and start over.

3. Use a keg line length calculator. https://www.kegerators.com/beer-line-calculator/

But before you change your beer line length fine tune your system.

4. Use this calculator to fine tune your system. https://content.kegworks.com/blog/determine-right-pressure-for-your-draft-beer-system/


Do the math and avoid problems.

 

[Snuffy]

I had a lot of trial and error with carbing corny kegs when I first started. I carb ales at room temp and my kegs condition at least 2 weeks or more before I chill and tap them. I watched a Brew and Grow video that explained a method that works well. I fill the keg and then pressurize and purge 2 or 3 times to clear the headspace. Then I load it to 35psi and leave it. 2 days later I purge and load at 35 PSI again and then leave it for 2 weeks minimum. When it's time to tap, I purge it again, load to 10 or 15 PSI and then kegerate. The first few glasses have to settle a bit until the foam gets right. I don't leave a tank hooked up in the kegerator. When it starts to slow, I recharge to 15 PSI. At normal beer or 2 a day usage that's about every 10 days to a couple of weeks. I only have a single keg unit. It's a sloppier method but it's what works for me and gives consistent results. I hate rolling kegs around and trying to follow a pressure chart to carb to style. I don't mind a little foam. Just hand me the hammer.

 

[Deadalus]

Strickly speaking yes, you would use slightly more CO2 when carbonating at a higher temperature, but as I stated above, we are only talking about 1 - 2 g of CO2 out of a total added CO2 of 60 - 80 g. And, it will make no detectable difference from a sensory standpoint, nor would you likely be able to measure any difference with the accuracy of the typical homebrew equipment. This is a tree falling in a forest - it happens, but you don't know it and it doesn't affect you.

Brew on

It was more for my own understanding of solubility. Increasing temperature can increase the solubility of a substance in water. I don't know if that's always true if the substance is soluble in water (or other), like a principle or law of some kind. Dredging up old learning, the solubility curve is pretty flat then over these temperatures-for a fixed pressure. Also makes sense too since carbonic acid is a weak acid. Over the range of pressures available with the equipment used, changing the pressure for a fixed temperature clearly makes a discernible difference, increasing pressure increases solubility of CO2. These relationships show in carbonation charts (left to right, up and down) but again using volumes throws me off

Thanks!

 

[Deadalus]

This is what I recommend to brewers that are beginning to keg or are having problems.

Do the math.

1. Piece of advice, ignore everyone’s “rules of thumb”. Unless they have the exact same system that you have what they do will not work right for you.

2. Pick a carbonation method:

https://byo.com/article/3-ways-to-carbonate-your-keg-techniques/

https://byo.com/article/carbonating-options-kegging/ You may need to degas your beer and start over.

3. Use a keg line length calculator. https://www.kegerators.com/beer-line-calculator/

But before you change your beer line length fine tune your system.

4. Use this calculator to fine tune your system. https://content.kegworks.com/blog/determine-right-pressure-for-your-draft-beer-system/


Do the math and avoid problems.

Haha I like where the article in the first link says, "The volume is a fairly obtuse unit"!

"Most beers in the United States contain roughly 2.5 volumes of carbon dioxide, or about 5 grams per liter. This means that if all the carbon dioxide in one liter of beer were expanded at 0° C and at one atmosphere of pressure, its volume would be 2.5 liters."

 

[doug293cz]

It was more for my own understanding of solubility. Increasing temperature can increase the solubility of a substance in water. I don't know if that's always true if the substance is soluble in water (or other), like a principle or law of some kind. Dredging up old learning, the solubility curve is pretty flat then over these temperatures-for a fixed pressure. Also makes sense too since carbonic acid is a weak acid. Over the range of pressures available with the equipment used, changing the pressure for a fixed temperature clearly makes a discernible difference, increasing pressure increases solubility of CO2. These relationships show in carbonation charts (left to right, up and down) but again using volumes throws me off

Thanks!

For many (most) solids dissolving in water, the solubility (maximum concentration available in equilibrium) increases with temperature. But things are just the opposite with gases dissolving in water (based solutions) - the solubility decreases with increasing temperature. This is why you need higher pressures to achieve a specific target carbonation level at higher temps vs. at lower temps. For example to obtain 2.5 volumes at 70°F requires a CO2 gauge pressure of 30.4 psi (45.1 psi CO2 partial pressure), but at 35°F you only need 9.8 psi gauge (24.5 psi partial pressure) to achieve the same 2.5 volumes.

Volumes is an odd ball unit of measure, only used in the context of carbonated beverages (AFAIK), but it is simply just another scale for dissolved CO2 concentration. 1 volume of carbonation is equal to 1.977 g/L of dissolved CO2, so 2.5 volumes is equal to 1.977 g/L * 2.5 = 4.94 g/L of dissolved CO2. So, beer at 35°F carbed to 2.5 volumes contains 4.94 g/L of CO2, and beer at 70°F carbed to 2.5 volumes also contains 4.94 g/L of dissolved CO2.

Any differential of total CO2 required to carbonate a given volume of beer to a specific carbonation level, is due only to the difference in the amount of CO2 in the headspace above the beer, which varies depending on the temperature at which carbonation occurs. Since higher pressures are required at higher temperatures, there will be more CO2 in the headspace at higher temperatures. This is the calculation I did in a post further up this thread.

Brew on

 

[Broken Crow]

I am noticing a lot of frost building up on the chill plate within the fridge,

Though that usually speaks to high humidity coupled with long compresser runs, one thing that helps is having adequate air recirculation within the kegerator. Can you post some pics of it? ..not just the icing, but the whole thing...there's no such thing as too many pictures....have the pours been foamy?... if you don't have recirculation you can solve 2 issues at once (I advocate solutions that don't involve avian homicide ): https://www.morebeer.com/products/draft-tower-fan-kit.html

 

[Deadalus]

For many (most) solids dissolving in water, the solubility (maximum concentration available in equilibrium) increases with temperature. But things are just the opposite with gases dissolving in water (based solutions) - the solubility decreases with increasing temperature. This is why you need higher pressures to achieve a specific target carbonation level at higher temps vs. at lower temps. For example to obtain 2.5 volumes at 70°F requires a CO2 gauge pressure of 30.4 psi (45.1 psi CO2 partial pressure), but at 35°F you only need 9.8 psi gauge (24.5 psi partial pressure) to achieve the same 2.5 volumes.

Volumes is an odd ball unit of measure, only used in the context of carbonated beverages (AFAIK), but it is simply just another scale for dissolved CO2 concentration. 1 volume of carbonation is equal to 1.977 g/L of dissolved CO2, so 2.5 volumes is equal to 1.977 g/L * 2.5 = 4.94 g/L of dissolved CO2. So, beer at 35°F carbed to 2.5 volumes contains 4.94 g/L of CO2, and beer at 70°F carbed to 2.5 volumes also contains 4.94 g/L of dissolved CO2.

Any differential of total CO2 required to carbonate a given volume of beer to a specific carbonation level, is due only to the difference in the amount of CO2 in the headspace above the beer, which varies depending on the temperature at which carbonation occurs. Since higher pressures are required at higher temperatures, there will be more CO2 in the headspace at higher temperatures. This is the calculation I did in a post further up this thread.

Brew on

It took me a while to figure out where I misinterpreted your answer about using more CO2. I was having to go through each each post and paragraph in the thread painfully slow! (All me not your explanation.) I was not thinking about the headspace and how that is filling up with gas too. I was only thinking about CO2 like dissolving a solid. I was thinking that for a specific CO2 volume, and let me us c here, that because a greater psi was needed at the higher temperature, that more (mass) CO2 was going into solution. But that is incorrect because c volumes of CO2 is the same mass of CO2 at both temperatures (with the caveat about the slight volume change with temperature). [And this is just me reiterating what you state in the last paragraph now that I understand it a little better.]

A bit dense of me regarding the solubility. I knew that carbonating to c volumes at the higher temperature would require a greater psi, call it P+, with the lower temperature needing a psi of just P. What I should have considered is what would happen if I set the psi to P+ at the lower temperature. It would be overcarbonated, which means it would have more CO2 therefore more CO2 is dissolved at colder tempteratures for the same pressure P+.

I also didn't have the carbonation chart open as I was on my phone. Having the actual numbers in front of me might have made me realize I had it completely backwards as far as temperature and solubility! Interesting that gases behave that way.