Kal panel vs Brew Buddy II vs Brewcommander

[GParkins]

Although I'll admit that there are some automated systems that I covet.

That's @Die_Beerery's rig. His whole process has been built around BruControl, and is an amazing example of how that software can expand to accommodate the most over-the-top implementation imaginable. The thing is, right in line with Kal's argument, BruControl allows that manual control. The only difference is that the control is on-screen instead of pushing obscure little buttons on a limited PID controller. I can set my rig so that the element acts like it's being controlled by PID, duty cycle, one-shot, or even hysterisis. I've been using BruControl for coming up to three years, and the really amazing flexibility and real power of that app has done more to improve the repeatability and consistency of my recipes than I thought was possible. I'm at the point where I can change one single variable in any recipe, and I can taste that change by the third pint I pull off of a fresh batch.

My rig is several levels of complexity below @Die_Beerery's. I have temperature control, element control, pump control, and 7 motorized valves. He has built an amazing fully automated LODO rig that beggars belief. That said, the exact same app is at the heart of both his and my rigs. My advice is to build a basic, simple rig around a BruControl core, and then expand the capabilities over time.

If you build a Kal clone, all you've done is to build a fancy remote control. You still have to push all of the buttons.

 

[augiedoggy]

@mysobry responded to my email and said that the Smartpid M5 Pro will be available for order soon, so I might wait to see if I can retrofit that to my Kal panel before I write an Arduino sketch from scratch.

Is that the one he was releasing like 2 years ago here?

 

[augiedoggy]

I see someone at the Electric Brewery website asked about possible updates. Seems replies are not too favorable.

Since hes such a home theater buff, someone should ask him there if hes still using the same home theater projector and sound system from 2008 too since its works just fine still as well to watch a movie.. it might put things into perspective a bit for him... or maybe not.

 

[duncan.brown]

Is that the one he was releasing like 2 years ago here?

Yeah, I see a thread from 2018 here. I'm guessing it never made it to market? Back to the Arduino sketch to monitor my Kal panel...

Don't get me wrong, I think that the BruControl rigs are very cool, but that level of digital monitoring and control of analog systems would make my hobby a bit too much like work, which is why I like the old-school design of my Kal panel.

 

[GParkins]

level of digital monitoring and control of analog systems would make my hobby a bit too much like work, which is why I like the old-school design of my Kal panel.

It's actually a lot less work. So much of my brew day has been freed up for other things. When it's time, I get a nice, mild chime and I know I need to go pay attention.

I also can't tell completely from your posts, but using BruControl doesn't mean developing Arduino sketches. BC is a front end that talks directly to custom firmware resident on the Arduino. The only thing I had to do was to write the scripts that automate the processes. There is a ton of documentation on the BC website. Might be worth a peek to see what it's about.

 

[duncan.brown]

It's actually a lot less work. So much of my brew day has been freed up for other things. When it's time, I get a nice, mild chime and I know I need to go pay attention.

I meant setting up something like BruControl is the type of thing that I deal with at work, rather than more effort

I also can't tell completely from your posts, but using BruControl doesn't mean developing Arduino sketches. BC is a front end that talks directly to custom firmware resident on the Arduino. The only thing I had to do was to write the scripts that automate the processes. There is a ton of documentation on the BC website. Might be worth a peek to see what it's about.

I'm happy with the rudimentary control of my Kal panel, I'm just looking for better logging. My plan is to get swap out the Auber SYL PID for the next model up that has Modbus and write a sketch to read the data from the PID and log it. I could add another probe to my mash tun and have a parallel BruContol system for that, but I'd like to record what the panel is doing.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's actually a lot less work. So much of my brew day has been freed up for other things. When it's time, I get a nice, mild chime and I know I need to go pay attention.

I also can't tell completely from your posts, but using BruControl doesn't mean developing Arduino sketches. BC is a front end that talks directly to custom firmware resident on the Arduino. The only thing I had to do was to write the scripts that automate the processes. There is a ton of documentation on the BC website. Might be worth a peek to see what it's about.

Ditto only As I pointed out earlier I'm not even using sketches.. mine works like kals panel only its using a 24" touch screen with added features and I can control multiple control panels including the fermenter control panel on our basement all from the touchscreen... unlike the home theater pc and other software toys I've made my self in the past, brucontrol is a pretty stable reliable piece of software, as is the arduino hardware. I use this in my brewpub and need something reliable there as it's used every week and 3bbls of beer is expensive to screwup.

 

[augiedoggy]

After building an analog panel much like kals as well as 2 brucontrol panels I think the brucontrol panels are easier to build and configure.. sure the temp probes require a little bit of calibrating with values you have to enter but it's a one time thing and the whole process to set up my whole panel took under an hour.. most of it is very simple vs cutting holes and squares and they sure are easier to add to and reconfigure as a brewers wants and needs change.

 

[GParkins]

is the type of thing that I deal with at work, rather than more effort

Gack. I have enough of those bus driver's holidays myself.

 

[crooow]

I got two (separate) 30amp GFCI circuits installed, and now I've got another dumb question. I noticed that the brew commander requires a L6-30 plug, but my my current receptacles are L14-30. I see there are some options out there for adaptor cords, and I'm wondering whether they'll work with the GFCI.

 

[duncan.brown]

I see there are some options out there for adaptor cords, and I'm wondering whether they'll work with the GFCI.

I’d advise you to consult a qualified electrician and the manual for your specific breaker for a definitive answer, but generally two-pole GFCI breakers require a line side neutral (this is inside the panel and is needed for the breaker electronics to work). However, on the load side you can connect loads with, or without, neutrals to the GFCI breaker.

Converting from L14-30 to L6-30 before the brew commander drops the neutral on the load side, so it should be fine. The GFCI will be looking for a current imbalance between the two hot wires and L6-30 carries a ground, so your equipment will be grounded.

 

[Bobby_M]

Yes, you can get the 14-30 to L6-30 adapters. 14-30 is a 240v/120v standard that has that fourth wire for a neutral. The L6-30 will not be connected to the neutral as the controller does no use it. It gets a neutral from the separate 120 volt input. GFCI breakers do not care if a neutral is in use or not.

 

[doug293cz]

I got two (separate) 30amp GFCI circuits installed, and now I've got another dumb question. I noticed that the brew commander requires a L6-30 plug, but my my current receptacles are L14-30. I see there are some options out there for adaptor cords, and I'm wondering whether they'll work with the GFCI.

Yes, they will work with GFCI, as long as the adapter ground connects to the 4-wire ground (rather than connecting the ground to neutral.)

Brew on

 

[Ihop2many]

I got two (separate) 30amp GFCI circuits installed, and now I've got another dumb question. I noticed that the brew commander requires a L6-30 plug, but my my current receptacles are L14-30. I see there are some options out there for adaptor cords, and I'm wondering whether they'll work with the GFCI.

L6-30, as you may know does not contain a neutral wire and is designed for 240-250V equipment. Two 30A circuits going through a 2-pole GFCI would work to power the brew commander panel you mentioned. Using an adaptor to power an L6-30 from 2 independent outlets would not meet code: one breaker could trip and not the other leaving the equipment energized and in an unsafe condition for servicing.

Are the 2 new circuits contained within one panel or separate?
Please verify the voltage between the 'hot' legs of the new GFCI breakers and see if it measures 240V, if not you have 2-120V 30A circuits which will not power the panel according to the info you provided. (I have not investigated the brew commander power requirements).

If both breakers are in one panel and you measure 240V across the phase conductors you could swap out the single circuit breakers for a 2-pole GFCI breaker (example shown below).

Good luck.

 

[crooow]

L6-30, as you may know does not contain a neutral wire and is designed for 240-250V equipment. Two 30A circuits going through a 2-pole GFCI would work to power the brew commander panel you mentioned. Using an adaptor to power an L6-30 from 2 independent outlets would not meet code: one breaker could trip and not the other leaving the equipment energized and in an unsafe condition for servicing.

Are the 2 new circuits contained within one panel or separate?
Please verify the voltage between the 'hot' legs of the new GFCI breakers and see if it measures 240V, if not you have 2-120V 30A circuits which will not power the panel according to the info you provided. (I have not investigated the brew commander power requirements).

If both breakers are in one panel and you measure 240V across the phase conductors you could swap out the single circuit breakers for a 2-pole GFCI breaker (example shown below).

Good luck.
View attachment 691305

I’m not sure I follow. I have two independent 240v circuits feeding an outlet each. They’re each on a separate GFCI breaker. Each outlet is going to power a brew commander.

 

[duncan.brown]

Here are my breakers for comparison. The top breaker is a 240V GFCI circuit for my eHERMS panel. It goes to a 14-30R outlet. A 14-30R plug to L14-30 cable connects L1,L2,N,G to the eHERMS panel.

The bottom breaker is 120V for GFCI-protected outlets near my brewing station, the extractor fan, and hood lights.

If you have two circuits that each have a breaker like the top one (which I how I interpreted your post) then you're fine as that GFCI sits across both hot wires and is watching the two hot load wires that give you 240V on the L14-30. It will trip on any current imbalance and both hots will tip (you can see the switches are connected at the breaker). You'll connect L1,L2,G to the BrewCommander, but not N.

I think @Ihop2many was saying to check that you don't have two like the bottom one giving you 240V. These watch hot and neutral and wouldn't trip the whole 240V circuit. If you do have two 120V GFCI breakers on a 240V circuit, get a new electrician!

 

[crooow]

Here are my breakers for comparison. The top breaker is a 240V GFCI circuit for my eHERMS panel. It goes to a 14-30R outlet. A 14-30R plug to L14-30 cable connects L1,L2,N,G to the eHERMS panel.

The bottom breaker is 120V for GFCI-protected outlets near my brewing station, the extractor fan, and hood lights.

If you have two circuits that each have a breaker like the top one (which I how I interpreted your post) then you're fine as that GFCI sits across both hot wires and is watching the two hot load wires that give you 240V on the L14-30. It will trip on any current imbalance and both hots will tip (you can see the switches are connected at the breaker). You'll connect L1,L2,G to the BrewCommander, but not N.

I think @Ihop2many was saying to check that you don't have two like the bottom one giving you 240V. These watch hot and neutral and wouldn't trip the whole 240V circuit. If you do have two 120V GFCI breakers on a 240V circuit, get a new electrician!

View attachment 691316

Got it! Thanks.

 

[Ihop2many]

I’m not sure I follow. I have two independent 240v circuits feeding an outlet each. They’re each on a separate GFCI breaker. Each outlet is going to power a brew commander.

I was not aware that each new GFCI was a 2-pole breaker, didn't notice that in your previous posts. You can follow the wiring as duncan.brown proposes.

Brew On!

 

[BBBF]

I love my 30A Kal panel as it's built like a tank and I like having to control the brew day manually. One thing I wish it had was more logging, though. I was thinking about swapping out one of the PIDs for the SmartPID M5 Pro, but these don't seem to be available in the store. Has anyone tried upgrading their panel by replacing the Auber SYL PIDs with something that has connectivity? Auber has a PID that connects to a computer, but it requires Windows.

Yes/No. I built two panels, using Cal3300's instead of Auber PID's. They can connect to a computer for data logging features, ramp up profiles, custom alarms, etc. I put DE-9 ports in both panels to take advantage of this feature. I had trouble getting the CALgrafix software to work and wanted call my panel done and start brewing with it. I haven't felt like I needed to revisit the software. I thought it might be cool to have profiles of different mash steps, but my RIMS system would never be able to adjust fast enough.

 

[duncan.brown]

My plan is to get swap out the Auber SYL PID for the next model up that has Modbus and write a sketch to read the data from the PID and log it. I could add another probe to my mash tun and have a parallel BruContol system for that, but I'd like to record what the panel is doing.

To close the loop on this, I ended up going for a slightly different plan. I decided not to bother replacing the PID in my Kal panel and went with replacing the analogue thermometer on my mash tun with a 15cm thermowell with a one-wire temperature probe inside it. This has the advantage that it will measure the temperature right in the middle of the mash bed, as opposed to the Kal-style placement of the mash PID's temperature probe on the recirculation port.

I almost went with BruControl, but I realized that it's Windows based and we're a UNIX house.

To display the temperature, I went old-school and put some seven-segment LED displays in a breadboard. I wrote an embarrassingly bad piece of python code to read out the one-wire temperatures and display them on the LEDs. The LED display is multiplexed using the pigpio daemon which gives a nice stable display since the GPIO pins are set in hardware. The LED anodes are connected to the GPIO pins with a 100 ohm current-limiting resistor to set the digit's segments and the multiplexing is performed with a 2N3406 on each LED digit's common cathode as a low-side switch. The base of each 2N3406 is connected via a 1k resistor to a GPIO pin and the Python code multiplexes using these pins. As an aside, my first software-based attempt at multiplexing based on this tutorial had an annoying flicker since I was driving the GPIO pins in non-realtime, user-space Python. Using pigpio fixes this.

I have one temperature display for the mash temp, and I hooked up another couple of seven-segment displays to show the highest and lowest temperatures measured by the one-wire probes in my keezer.

I have other piece of code that reads out and logs the mash temperatures as a simple csv file while I'm performing the mash. It would be awesome if BeerSmith could import these like it can import fermentation temperatures. I might put a feature request in for that on the BeerSmith forum.

Here are the temperature displays. Mash in orange, keezer high and low in red and green. The Pi B+ with an Alamode is at top right and the connection for my flow meters at bottom right.

Is this simpler than BruControl? No.

Does it look cool?