I'm toying with the idea of converting my 10 year old propane system to electric, so I'm reading about controllers. I'm looking at building a 50amp eHERMS system to make 10 gallon batches. I'm not really a DIY person, so I'm looking at off the shelf controllers. One thing I can't get my head around is why there is such a huge difference in cost between controllers. At one end of the spectrum you got two Brewcommanders at $750. On the other end, you got Kal's panel at $2695. In the middle, you have the Brew Buddy II. Obviously, these controllers take different approaches and have different components, but I'm having difficulty figuring out the pros and cons of each and what's actually worth paying for. Thoughts?
Kal panel vs Brew Buddy II vs Brewcommander
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I built Kal's panel from his complete kit of parts. His items are "off the shelf" items. While he stands100% behind his products, if in the future, a part goes out, it is easily and less costly to replace. Also, Kal offers sales from time-to-time. Huge price savings.
The Blichmann Brewcommander uses proprietary parts. Something goes wrong? Have to contact Blichmann. What happens if Brewcommander is at the end of life and no longer supported?
Brew Buddy appears, at least to me, as a Kal copy.
The Blichmann Brewcommander uses proprietary parts. Something goes wrong? Have to contact Blichmann. What happens if Brewcommander is at the end of life and no longer supported?
Brew Buddy appears, at least to me, as a Kal copy.
Good point about proprietary parts. The Brew Buddy does look like a Kal copy. I guess I'm just curious why there's such a huge difference in price between the two.
augiedoggy
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Kal was the first to market... Thus he could charge pretty much whatever he wanted. He was the only game in town and he blazed the trail. In the very beginning he offered up his plans and part list for free and people mentioned they would like to pay or donate to him for his effort He did all this work and developed this so why not profit from it so then he offered multiple links for the components as well as a premium for his prebuilt panels which he has to pay for labor to be built plus an additional fee to profit. there was nothing wrong with that, and most of his customers have the extra $$ to spare vs the inconvience of sourcing thier own components. Plus they see it as a donation to Kal for the development and time he spend to provide the plans.
When you buy components through him to build yourself you paying an additional middleman (kal which he is very open about) so also additional markups. For Example a 40a Mager/mgr ssr that he buys unbranded and sells for $20-$25 shipped which is the same ssr auberins and the electricbrewing.com sells 40 amp SSR, 12V DC input, 240V AC output is the same product that normally have a direct /street price of around $10 shipped MGR-1 SSR 10A/25A/40A/60A DA DD AA DC-AC AC-AC Single Phase Solid State Relay | eBay or Mager SSR 40A AC-AC Solid state relay Quality Goods MGR-1 A4840 | eBay even specialty items like the PID that kal sells for $52 plus shipping SYL-2352 PID temperature controller has a 20% markup over auberins price of $42 + shipping 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller (For SSR) [SYL-2352] - $41.98 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry when you take all these markups and add them up the cost increase is quite a bit.
Now that the market for these products has more products and competition the prices have been coming down. The kal panel is a bit outdated by design and Kal has not done much to update the design as im sure he has other things going on in his life that are more important. The maker of those pids in the kal panel for example (auberins) has developed newer temp controllers which are vastly superior and the features like step mashing, timers and alarms as well as step automation built right in them whereas when the kal panel was designed none of this existed and separate timers were used. the complexity of the panels have a lot to do with cost as well as manufacturing labor costs. the brewcommander is by far the least expensive panel to produce since its all software driven with a microchip controller and these things are very inexpensive. since its an actual manufactured product and not something built with purchased with off the shelf industrial control panel components it is likely built on some form of factory assyline which we all know brings costs down. there is the proprietary aspect of it but likely these types of controllers end up being replaced by something else as a brewers needs or wants change. Jus as many kal clones have been sold over the years and replaced by BIAB systems and vs versa. I built my own conrol panels and even im on my 3rd panel and decided to go with a software driven brucontrol system now that I could easily modify and add to or reconfigure to my needs going forward vs building new panels all together. The "kal clone" in my avatar pic was my first and you can see from the link in my signature it evolved over time but was still a $300 budget build. Currently the 120a 3bbl brucontrol control panel I use at the brewery which is built to code with all UL listed components, cost me about half of the cost of the 50a prebuilt kal panel so yeah you will pay quite a bit more for a prebuilt panel as the labor is fairly intensive to assemble them (normally at least twice the component costs).
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You already said it, differnent approaches, differnent costs.
The commanders cut costs by not using any power relays or contractors to kill power or to do element enable/selection. They also dont have internal circuit breakers to portion out say a 50amp supply into two 30 amp branch circuits and 120v circuits. You really need to break those down in a subpanel if you plan to run a single 50 or 60 amp run to the brew area.
The BrewBuddy has all the stuff I mentioned above, as does the Kal panel.
The buddy cuts costs, and adds efficiency and function by using purpose build control modules that have timers and alarm logic build in where the Kal panel has separate components for timers. It also uses a duel passive temp display to monitor say the MLT output and maybe a counterflow chiller output.
My opinion, if the Brew Buddy is in your budget, its a better price, in a smaller package, with more functionality than the electric brewery,
If you cant go over 1k, the two commanders will do the job but I would put a subpanel close so you can manually kill power between brew days.
The commanders cut costs by not using any power relays or contractors to kill power or to do element enable/selection. They also dont have internal circuit breakers to portion out say a 50amp supply into two 30 amp branch circuits and 120v circuits. You really need to break those down in a subpanel if you plan to run a single 50 or 60 amp run to the brew area.
The BrewBuddy has all the stuff I mentioned above, as does the Kal panel.
The buddy cuts costs, and adds efficiency and function by using purpose build control modules that have timers and alarm logic build in where the Kal panel has separate components for timers. It also uses a duel passive temp display to monitor say the MLT output and maybe a counterflow chiller output.
My opinion, if the Brew Buddy is in your budget, its a better price, in a smaller package, with more functionality than the electric brewery,
If you cant go over 1k, the two commanders will do the job but I would put a subpanel close so you can manually kill power between brew days.
Are you comparing the Kal kit of parts vs Brew Buddy? If so, the Brew Buddy is missing some features (unless they are added on during purchase).
augiedoggy
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Like what? It looks to me to be the other way around... The brewbuddy uses the DSPR320 with built in programable step mashing and timers as well as multiple alarms and features talked about in another thread recently like the built in protection against boilovers. again, that newer tech I touched on above. the OP already stated hes not DIY so wants to buy a completed panel kals 30a panel is $2,300=shipping... brewbuddy with optional plugs and outlets is under $1,500.
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LittleRiver
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To further confuse things, there is another Brewbuddy.
And as I previously posted Kal heavily discounts things from time-to-time. Get a prebuilt panel for much less.
augiedoggy
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So what features are missing for $800 less? Does kal have a lifetime warranty like high gravity? Usually if a product is heavily discounted from time to time that doesnt have an expiration date it means there they need to be clearanced for new models or its probably being sold for too much most of the time... just saying. I know price isnt everything to everyone and im sure the fit and finish makes a sharper looking control panel in some man caves than others but I have to say for as much as I was critical of auberins in the past for thier markups on the generic chinese good they sell but they are the same chinese components in kals panels and Auberins has pretty reasonable prices for their control panels which have cause other vendors to bring their prices down in MOST cases permanently. Just my opinion and im not any type of authority on this stuff I just spent a lot of time here reading when im not working or brewing or both.
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augiedoggy
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my opinion but if you want to save some coin... dont look at 50a control panels for 10 gallons when 30a gets the job done 95% of the time just as well unless you plane to do 10hr brewdays with back to back brew sessions.
Agreed. Half way through a back-to-back brew day I was cursing my 30A panel for not having two circuits. By 11pm, I was cursing myself for trying to do two batches in one day...
I've got an electrician coming out next week to put in a 50amp breaker (GFCI) and circuit. This is a dumb question, but is it possible to run a 30amp device like a brew-commander on a 50amp circuit? You got me rethinking whether I want to get a 30 vs 50 amp control panel, and I figure I might have more options if I go for the 50 if it's compatible with either (I might also use it to charge an electric car in the future).
Yes, you can run a 30 amp appliance on a 50 amp circuit as long as it's not hard wired. It's like plugging a 100 watt light bulb into a 15 amp circuit. The lamp cord is usually 18 gauge which can't handle the full 15 amps that the breaker is capable of.
There is that slim chance that some malfunction will draw 40 amps and overheat the controller supply cord without the breaker tripping but a more high current "short" situation is the more likely failure.
There is that slim chance that some malfunction will draw 40 amps and overheat the controller supply cord without the breaker tripping but a more high current "short" situation is the more likely failure.
Since you should have a gfci for ebrewing, put in 50a circuit with 50a spa panel next to brew area with a 50a outlet. They make 50a to 30a plug adapters relatively cheap. Get a brew commander and use the spa panel to fully cut power. Have spa panel breaker off, plug in brew commander and element, then turn on spa panel breaker. Since in the garage put 50a outlet near a 120v outlet for pump so brew commander can control the pump too.
I see someone at the Electric Brewery website asked about possible updates. Seems replies are not too favorable.
I love my 30A Kal panel as it's built like a tank and I like having to control the brew day manually. One thing I wish it had was more logging, though. I was thinking about swapping out one of the PIDs for the SmartPID M5 Pro, but these don't seem to be available in the store. Has anyone tried upgrading their panel by replacing the Auber SYL PIDs with something that has connectivity? Auber has a PID that connects to a computer, but it requires Windows.
augiedoggy
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Kal is a pretty busy Guy with a lot of hobbies... I have seen him active over on the home theater forum and hes got some high end stuff So I imagine hes doing quite well with his ventures and honestly doesnt want to be bothered with it. (Makes one think again about the whole brew commander future support worries being not as likely since they are a leading brew supply company vs something sold by a more or less a hobbiest.) As far as updates though no one is stopping people from just swapping out newer controllers such as the ezboil units. Its fairly straight forward.
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augiedoggy
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This was a big motivator for brucontrol for me.. I like having the graphs to track and show mash steps as well as a log of fermenter temps. you can even get a good indication of when active fermentation is done by the graph log.
Yes, it's the logging that I really want. If I can get hold of a DIN 1/16” unit that does logging, I'd swap out the Mash Temp PID (the PID that does nothing) and replace it with one that can log the mash temperature. One option would be to get a cheap Auber unit and replace the guts with an ESP32 since I don't actually need control. That might be a fun project.
FWIW, I agree with Kal's arguments about controlling the brew day manually. That's part of the fun for me. Although I'll admit that there are some automated systems that I covet.
Having gone down the Google rabbit hole for a few minutes, I think I might try this solution. I'll upgrade the Mash Temp PID to an SYL-2381-SSR-S. This has an RS-485 interface that implements the Modbus RTU protocol. There's an Arduino Modbus library that I should be able to use to talk to the Auber PID and do the logging. If this works, I'll start a new thread describing the build.
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augiedoggy
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I also still brew "manually" which with electric temp control is a reletive term.. but I can automate much of my process if I chose to do so depending on what sensors I choose to add to my system. Like you I prefer the hands on approach to my hobby and my business while brewing. there are things I may introduce like temp control ramping schedules which can be written to automatically ramp up and then cold crash a brew based on a set of parameters like tilt hydrometer readings. For now we do it all manually though, through a touchscreen virtual control panel.
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I suppose I should say "with the degree of automation afforded by a manually set programmable-integral-differential controller."
augiedoggy
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augiedoggy
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Here is a more typical mash graph without step mashing.
This is a very old picture of Our fermenter temp control screen but you get the picture of how it works
I just read that thread. I'm a little surprised by the response.
Glad someone concurs with the posts. Thought perhaps I misread the posts. Read them twice to ensure I wasn't misunderstanding. Each time I had the same feeling "not too favorable/welcoming for updates -- even suggestions".
Is this BruControl?
augiedoggy
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That's @Die_Beerery's rig. His whole process has been built around BruControl, and is an amazing example of how that software can expand to accommodate the most over-the-top implementation imaginable. The thing is, right in line with Kal's argument, BruControl allows that manual control. The only difference is that the control is on-screen instead of pushing obscure little buttons on a limited PID controller. I can set my rig so that the element acts like it's being controlled by PID, duty cycle, one-shot, or even hysterisis. I've been using BruControl for coming up to three years, and the really amazing flexibility and real power of that app has done more to improve the repeatability and consistency of my recipes than I thought was possible. I'm at the point where I can change one single variable in any recipe, and I can taste that change by the third pint I pull off of a fresh batch.
My rig is several levels of complexity below @Die_Beerery's. I have temperature control, element control, pump control, and 7 motorized valves. He has built an amazing fully automated LODO rig that beggars belief. That said, the exact same app is at the heart of both his and my rigs. My advice is to build a basic, simple rig around a BruControl core, and then expand the capabilities over time.
If you build a Kal clone, all you've done is to build a fancy remote control. You still have to push all of the buttons.
augiedoggy
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Is that the one he was releasing like 2 years ago here?
augiedoggy
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Since hes such a home theater buff, someone should ask him there if hes still using the same home theater projector and sound system from 2008 too since its works just fine still as well to watch a movie.. it might put things into perspective a bit for him... or maybe not.
Yeah, I see a thread from 2018 here. I'm guessing it never made it to market? Back to the Arduino sketch to monitor my Kal panel...
Don't get me wrong, I think that the BruControl rigs are very cool, but that level of digital monitoring and control of analog systems would make my hobby a bit too much like work, which is why I like the old-school design of my Kal panel.
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It's actually a lot less work. So much of my brew day has been freed up for other things. When it's time, I get a nice, mild chime and I know I need to go pay attention.
I also can't tell completely from your posts, but using BruControl doesn't mean developing Arduino sketches. BC is a front end that talks directly to custom firmware resident on the Arduino. The only thing I had to do was to write the scripts that automate the processes. There is a ton of documentation on the BC website. Might be worth a peek to see what it's about.
I meant setting up something like BruControl is the type of thing that I deal with at work, rather than more effort
I'm happy with the rudimentary control of my Kal panel, I'm just looking for better logging. My plan is to get swap out the Auber SYL PID for the next model up that has Modbus and write a sketch to read the data from the PID and log it. I could add another probe to my mash tun and have a parallel BruContol system for that, but I'd like to record what the panel is doing.
augiedoggy
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Ditto only As I pointed out earlier I'm not even using sketches.. mine works like kals panel only its using a 24" touch screen with added features and I can control multiple control panels including the fermenter control panel on our basement all from the touchscreen... unlike the home theater pc and other software toys I've made my self in the past, brucontrol is a pretty stable reliable piece of software, as is the arduino hardware. I use this in my brewpub and need something reliable there as it's used every week and 3bbls of beer is expensive to screwup.
augiedoggy
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After building an analog panel much like kals as well as 2 brucontrol panels I think the brucontrol panels are easier to build and configure.. sure the temp probes require a little bit of calibrating with values you have to enter but it's a one time thing and the whole process to set up my whole panel took under an hour.. most of it is very simple vs cutting holes and squares and they sure are easier to add to and reconfigure as a brewers wants and needs change.
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Gack. I have enough of those bus driver's holidays myself.
I got two (separate) 30amp GFCI circuits installed, and now I've got another dumb question. I noticed that the brew commander requires a L6-30 plug, but my my current receptacles are L14-30. I see there are some options out there for adaptor cords, and I'm wondering whether they'll work with the GFCI.
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