Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[sheikyerbouti]

A lot of Citra has been junk for a couple years now. A lot more acreage to try to keep up with demand and lots that are vastly different. Same for Mosaic.

It's funny, I never initially liked Citra but the the past 2 years I've learned to like it

 

[ultravista]

What is everyone doing with opened packets of dry yeast when using a portion?

 

[couchsending]

What is everyone doing with opened packets of dry yeast when using a portion?

Vacuum sealing them immediately.. no clue if it affects viability or not.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I stopped using oats in my NEIPAs, and they have started dropping clear by the time they're carbonated and cold conditioned. I don't really care about appearances, but at the least, I tend to observe the beers as softer and fluffier when they are not as clear. I mash kind of high and, due to my small batches, they get pretty cool by the end of the mash (~140 F or 60 C). In anyone's experience, could this be a reason for the clarity? I noticed that the Trinity recipe doesn't have oats, but his beer was not clear

 

[chieftain]

Question - it seems like most people using the trio have either pitched warm, and then dropped the temp, or stayed at a cooler temp throughout. I'm considering pitching the S04 and keeping it cool for the first 3 days (to avoid tartness), and then add the other two while raising temps to 72-73 to get the desired esters. Anyone else try something like this?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I stopped using oats in my NEIPAs, and they have started dropping clear by the time they're carbonated and cold conditioned. I don't really care about appearances, but at the least, I tend to observe the beers as softer and fluffier when they are not as clear. I mash kind of high and, due to my small batches, they get pretty cool by the end of the mash (~140 F or 60 C). In anyone's experience, could this be a reason for the clarity? I noticed that the Trinity recipe doesn't have oats, but his beer was not clear

Just my anecdote fwiw. The NEIPAs I've done with oats were all with 1318, mashed quite low, right around 145F. Of the 3 attempts I've done with the trio here, the first one was maybe 15% wheat, the other two were 100% barley and no unmalted grains. All 3 attempts were mashed high, 155+F. I mash in a stainless pot, and my weapon of choice for maintaining stable mash temps has been to stick the whole pot in the oven.

None of my NEIPAs have ever really dropped clear that I dry hopped during active ferment - 36 to 48 hours post pitch depending on the strain and what I'm doing with the temps. I have had clearER NEIPAs when i missed that active ferment dry hop window. Seems to me that this is a bigger knob for my process than mash temp as far as appearance. But I have also noticed a fuller mouthfeel when my beers are hazier. Confirmation bias or not i couldn't tell you.

Other things that may affect the appearance of my NEIPAs, I typically do almost no kettle hopping during the boil, maybe a small 5 min addition. I also carry over most of my trub into the fermenter and usually keg at day 8-9. Also, I do another usually equal dry hop addition as primary is dying down. I think this stuff could also affect binding of flavor compounds to polyphenols, etc.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Question - it seems like most people using the trio have either pitched warm, and then dropped the temp, or stayed at a cooler temp throughout. I'm considering pitching the S04 and keeping it cool for the first 3 days (to avoid tartness), and then add the other two while raising temps to 72-73 to get the desired esters. Anyone else try something like this?

This was exactly the question at the beginning of the road that led me to blending finished beers with the trio.

My train of thought was this: i don't want the tartness that comes from warm pitching S-04. I also don't want the phenols from pitching the others cool. But if I pitch just S-04 cool then let it warm up, then pitch the other two strains, the S-04 will have built up enough of a population to ferment the entire wort, and it will be very easy for it to outcompete the other strains. So would I get the esters I want anyway? I don't know. Well, at a certain point, if i add enough of the other strains, they would still be able to compete with the S-04. Ok, so how much is enough? F it, I'm just going to blend finished beers!!

But the other approach is still in the back of my mind, I would be very interested in your results if you try it.

 

[chieftain]

I will give it a shot and report back. I understand what you're saying about giving the S-04 a big head start, but we're only looking for modest contributions from the other two, right?

This was exactly the question at the beginning of the road that led me to blending finished beers with the trio.

My train of thought was this: i don't want the tartness that comes from warm pitching S-04. I also don't want the phenols from pitching the others cool. But if I pitch just S-04 cool then let it warm up, then pitch the other two strains, the S-04 will have built up enough of a population to ferment the entire wort, and it will be very easy for it to outcompete the other strains. So would I get the esters I want anyway? I don't know. Well, at a certain point, if i add enough of the other strains, they would still be able to compete with the S-04. Ok, so how much is enough? F it, I'm just going to blend finished beers!!

But the other approach is still in the back of my mind, I would be very interested in your results if you try it.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I will give it a shot and report back. I understand what you're saying about giving the S-04 a big head start, but we're only looking for modest contributions from the other two, right?

Awesome, looking forward to it!

As far as the subtlety of the other strains' contributions, I feel like it seems to vary beer to beer with TH. I feel like some of their core IPAs have quite a bit of that banana-bubblegum thing. A few months ago I degassed some Doppelganger to take a gravity reading and drank the sample when I was done. I think I chilled it back down to serving temp before drinking it. By that point a lot of the hop character was gone too. But I remember thinking, man, this tastes like a hef but without any trace of clove.

I mean, it's possible to get that character out of a hef yeast, but only at temps that cause a boatload of tartness from S-04. So in my mind that means either staggered pitching or blending. This is assuming it is WB-06 that is responsible for that banana-bubblegum character at all, I know there's been some questioning of that lately. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

 

[jakturner]

Awesome, looking forward to it!

As far as the subtlety of the other strains' contributions, I feel like it seems to vary beer to beer with TH. I feel like some of their core IPAs have quite a bit of that banana-bubblegum thing. A few months ago I degassed some Doppelganger to take a gravity reading and drank the sample when I was done. I think I chilled it back down to serving temp before drinking it. By that point a lot of the hop character was gone too. But I remember thinking, man, this tastes like a hef but without any trace of clove.

I mean, it's possible to get that character out of a hef yeast, but only at temps that cause a boatload of tartness from S-04. So in my mind that means either staggered pitching or blending. This is assuming it is WB-06 that is responsible for that banana-bubblegum character at all, I know there's been some questioning of that lately. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

I’ve been using danstars Munich classic for a couple of other beers lately, mainly Berliners and Gose. Fermented around room temp (71-74) it is mostly bubblegum, pear, and generic fruit like you get from English strains, with a small amount banana and 0 clove. I’ve really been meaning to ferment an IPA with it, just haven’t got around to it yet. I feel like it could carry one of these beers on its own. It leaves a fuller mouth feel on beer thats ph is 3.2 and finishes at 1.010 which is saying something.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

temps that cause a boatload of tartness from S-04

Of course, this raises the question of what the aim is, are you trying to achieve - going to any lengths to clone Julius or will you deviate slightly in the interests of practicality at a homebrew level? There's no right answer to that question. And we don't actually know for certain that it is S-04 they're using - yes it has an interdelta pattern that is pretty unique among the 20-odd strains that isomerization tested and that is a good match for the blue triangle pattern, but that's not the same as _knowing_. It makes a lot of sense that it would be S-04 as a major British dry yeast, and as has been discussed there may be good reasons for them choosing to use dry yeasts in the brewery, but homebrewers don't have quite the same constraints. Try WLP002, try WLP029, try WLP013, whatever. Mangrove Jack M15 Empire might be an interesting dry yeast to try, Windsor might do some funky biotransformations. There's nothing "magic" about S-04 if you're just trying to make great beer, and not using it may save you having to jump through some hoops to get round the lactic problem.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Of course, this raises the question of what the aim is, are you trying to achieve - going to any lengths to clone Julius or will you deviate slightly in the interests of practicality at a homebrew level? There's no right answer to that question. And we don't actually know for certain that it is S-04 they're using - yes it has an interdelta pattern that is pretty unique among the 20-odd strains that isomerization tested and that is a good match for the blue triangle pattern, but that's not the same as _knowing_. It makes a lot of sense that it would be S-04 as a major British dry yeast, and as has been discussed there may be good reasons for them choosing to use dry yeasts in the brewery, but homebrewers don't have quite the same constraints. Try WLP002, try WLP029, try WLP013, whatever. Mangrove Jack M15 Empire might be an interesting dry yeast to try, Windsor might do some funky biotransformations. There's nothing "magic" about S-04 if you're just trying to make great beer, and not using it may save you having to jump through some hoops to get round the lactic problem.

For sure, yeah. Actually I am planning to switch out the base strain to 1968 for one of my upcoming attempts.

Also going to do a 100% WB-06 batch with a warm pitch and ferment. The motivation being that when I did my blended batch, the aroma of the WB-06 part of the blend really made me think of Doppelganger. It made me think that maybe WB-06 (or similar) plays a bigger role than we've been giving it credit for. I know @marshallb had some good results with only a Wyeast Bavarian wheat strain.

 

[NJGeorge]

For sure, yeah. Actually I am planning to switch out the base strain to 1968 for one of my upcoming attempts.

Also going to do a 100% WB-06 batch with a warm pitch and ferment. The motivation being that when I did my blended batch, the aroma of the WB-06 part of the blend really made me think of Doppelganger. It made me think that maybe WB-06 (or similar) plays a bigger role than we've been giving it credit for. I know @marshallb had some good results with only a Wyeast Bavarian wheat strain.

I’m thinking about doing the same with just a 100% wb ipa to see how it is. Did you feel with the batch you did, you could have just drank that and enjoyed it? Was it good? Any tartness on its own?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I’m thinking about doing the same with just a 100% wb ipa to see how it is. Did you feel with the batch you did, you could have just drank that and enjoyed it? Was it good? Any tartness on its own?

I feel like it had a lot of potential. But I never intended for that part of the blend to be anything more than a source of ester complexity, so I actually didn't hop it like I did the other S-04/T-58 part of the blend. The WB-06 got a little over 2 oz/gal of hopstand hops and no other kettle or dry hops. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I liked it enough that I think it'd be worth it to put some effort into making a real unblended beer with WB-06, but I don't know that I would have enjoyed it on its own as much as the blend, just because I didn't hop it like it was meant to be its own thing. Like I said though, the aroma of it really made me think of Doppelganger.

Not as much tartness as S-04 IIRC.

 

[NJGeorge]

I feel like it had a lot of potential. But I never intended for that part of the blend to be anything more than a source of ester complexity, so I actually didn't hop it like I did the other S-04/T-58 part of the blend. The WB-06 got a little over 2 oz/gal of hopstand hops and no other kettle or dry hops. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I liked it enough that I think it'd be worth it to put some effort into making a real unblended beer with WB-06, but I don't know that I would have enjoyed it on its own as much as the blend, just because I didn't hop it like it was meant to be its own thing. Like I said though, the aroma of it really made me think of Doppelganger.

Not as much tartness as S-04 IIRC.

You mentioned you got bubblegum/banana. Was it like that juicy fruit aroma almost tropical like? Very ripe banana?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

You mentioned you got bubblegum/banana. Was it like that juicy fruit aroma almost tropical like? Very ripe banana?

Yeah, I think very ripe banana is a good descriptor. It was there in the 100% WB-06 part of the blend but pretty subdued in the finished blended beer. Much more subtle than in, say, a Doppelganger. The WB-06 component ended up being about 15-18% of the blend, and IMO it wasn't enough, which is another reason I want to go full banana haha, i.e. 100% WB-06 for a full batch. For the record, I do think that 100% WB-06 might possibly be too much, but I also want to get a better feel for it and see if I can truly make the clove negligible by manipulating the temps and other yeast parameters.

The 100% WB-06 part of the blended batch had basically no clove. If i really concentrated, maybe I could pick up on some. I pretty much did every trick in the book to suppress the clove and maximize the esters. Compared to my first attempt with the trio i was pretty surprised, because that one was like 7.5% WB-06 co-pitched and the clove was pretty much intolerable at first. Even though I pitched at 77F and let it free rise from there. The clove did fade quite a bit over a couple of weeks. But in comparison, the finished blended batch had zero clove and much more noticeable banana-bubblegum than the 7.5% WB-06 co-pitch.

 

[robopp]

I just brewed the Trinity Julius clone recipe to a T. I was preparing to cold crash yesterday and while I was emptying out the airlock thought to myself - wow! This smells just Like that smell you get when you walk into the Tree House brewery. Fingers crossed that it tastes as good as it smells. For reference, this is my third attempt, albeit first time following the Trinity recipe, and my first two attempts had way too much clove.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I just brewed the Trinity Julius clone recipe to a T. I was preparing to cold crash yesterday and while I was emptying out the airlock thought to myself - wow! This smells just Like that smell you get when you walk into the Tree House brewery. Fingers crossed that it tastes as good as it smells. For reference, this is my third attempt, albeit first time following the Trinity recipe, and my first two attempts had way too much clove.

what is in his fermentation routine that differs from what gave you too much clove?

 

[mrodrigues9]

what is the consensus on the main bittering hop they are using? everyone still think it is warrior? and those that have tried the CO2 hops what have you tried (anyone fine the warrior CO2 shot anywhere?) I used the shot from Yakima which is 60% Columbus and it seemed to work pretty well

 

[ultravista]

I just brewed the Trinity Julius clone recipe to a T ...

Did you go with 5 or 10 gallons? If 5 gallons, please post the recipe.

 

[robopp]

what is in his fermentation routine that differs from what gave you too much clove?

Three major differences:

1 - The T58 and WB06 are a tiny percentage of the yeast 92/5/3 (S04/T58/WB06). Previously, I was pretty heavy handed with these two.

2 - I was fermenting pretty warm - 72F for the duration. In the Trinity recipe, Marshall calls for 1 day at 72F then cool everything down to 64F for the remainder.

3 - The recipe calls for a very low mash pH - 5.2. Previously I was targeting 5.4.

I just kegged this batch and it tastes awesome! No clove at all and very orangey. I can't wait to try it after its carbonated.

 

[robopp]

Did you go with 5 or 10 gallons? If 5 gallons, please post the recipe.

I actually brew in small batches - 2.5 gallons. Here's a link to my recipe:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/639764/julius-take-3

And here's a link the inspiration:
https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Three major differences:

1 - The T58 and WB06 are a tiny percentage of the yeast 92/5/3 (S04/T58/WB06). Previously, I was pretty heavy handed with these two.

2 - I was fermenting pretty warm - 72F for the duration. In the Trinity recipe, Marshall calls for 1 day at 72F then cool everything down to 64F for the remainder.

3 - The recipe calls for a very low mash pH - 5.2. Previously I was targeting 5.4.

I just kegged this batch and it tastes awesome! No clove at all and very orangey. I can't wait to try it after its carbonated.

I did a similar thing on my second attempt. Same yeast ratios, but starting at 61F and ramped up over the course of primary.

I described it in my log the same way you describe yours. Very orange-y. I will say though, mine wasn't very close to the real thing, even though it was a good beer in its own right.

I'm interested to know if you'll pick up any of that banana-bubblegum character once it's carbed and at serving temp, having fermented at higher temps than I did.

Looking forward to your results!

 

[kc brewer]

need some help fellas. will try and be precise and short as possible, but want to give as much pertinent info as possible so hopefully someone can shed some light on my problem.
all thoughts and comments welcome.

1st off...love the thread, so great...... and informative as it is entertaining.

so long time brewer and very familiar with the NEIPA style over the last couple years...always used conan or 1318, but after reading all this i couldn't help but try this blend, as i too love all the TH beers i have had.

brewed a 10 gallon batch

Yeast pitched 22g S-04, 3g T-58 and 1g WB-06.
i estimated SG at 1.089 and FG at 1.018 shooting for something almost around 9% ABV which i know is not exactly a julius clone, but have been liking a lot of the DDH-DIPA's i have been trying lately from Other Half, Trillium, etc.

Simple Malt bill:
l
77.14% ---27lb Marris Otter - Bairds
8.57%----3lb Oat Malt
5.71%----2lb Vienna
8.57%----3lb Carafoam
Total 35lbs

Hops (kind of ridiculous amounts now that i am posting this. Ha!)
4 Warrior pellets 2016 15min
2 Columbus pellets 2017 15min
4 Columbus pellets 2017 5min
2 Centennial pellets 2016 5min
4 Centennial pellets 2016 0 (flame out)
2 Columbus pellets 2017 0 (flame out)
3.5 Citra flowers 2017 0(flame out)
6 Citra pellets 2017 dry
4 Mosaic pellets 2017 dry
2 Amarillo pellets 2017 dry
2 Citra pellets 2017 (keg1) keg
2 Mosaic pellets 2017 (keg2) keg

Water treatment was same as i have always used for this style:
Filtered tap water, Mash 5.2 Stabilizer in mash, 2 teaspoons Calcium Chloride at end of boil. Pretty simple but has always yielded excellent results for me.

Primary Fermentation was 10 days at ambient temps in my basement (65-68F)

I added the first batch of dry hops 30 hours after yeast pitch at high kreausen.
Added the keg hops to a mesh screen torpedo and place them in the bottom of the kegs, purged o2, racked beer on top, added 4oz priming sugar and half a pack of CB-1 yeast to each keg. Closed them up, purged o2 again and put a little pressure on each and put them in the corner of my living room. 6 days later I put kegs in keezer to cold crash at 39 degrees.

So i took samples at time of racking and it was really amazing. Could of drank it warm and uncarb'd it so good. Definitely had a little noticeable banana and bubblegum with no clove. Maybe a little trace of the tartness from the S-04 people describe....but even uncarb'd mouthfeel was great.

The only two things i did differently than the previous NEIPA's i have made was using the dry yeast blend and this was my first attempt at natural carbing the beer....i typically force carb as it is easy, quick and always tastes great.

The first pint to pour from each keg had some hop particles, sediment, etc ..no issues and the beer was pouring a nice hazy orange color....and i could smell it from across the room, most incredible aroma ever. The taste was sublime...my notes have the rare "one of the best beers i have ever had, much less made myself" etc type comments. Needless to say i was toasting each and every one of you...iso, hairy hop, couch sending, NJ george, pale indian, etc etc (sorry if i left one of you frequent contributors out)...just knowing i was going to be drowning in this amazing beer for the next 4 weeks or so had me all giddy.

Then it all went downhill from there. After about the 3rd day of being tapped both beers started to get this slightly astringent, somewhat bitter phenolic, harsh off flavor that completely masked the great aroma and distracted so much from the juicy, tropical, citrus fruit flavors i was getting from the hops. It started happening first with keg1 (DDH CITRA) and then the next day with keg2 (DDH MOSAIC)...now i'm like 7 days into both kegs and every day is a new adventure...the citra one settled down quite a bit and i now get some hop aroma and some slight malt and the harsh/phenolic/solventy/yeasty aroma and flavor have retreated some, but still there....and the mosaic one is pretty much flat and still overly harsh with no good hop or malt flavor. It is a complete mystery to me.

Here are my best educated guesses and ideas of what the hell happened based on the literally 100's of batches i have made over the last 20 years.

The overall gist of my theory is my first real attempt at natural carbing was an unmitigated disaster...ruining what would of two of the best kegs i ever made and drank in my life. I most likely used to much priming sugar and should of shot for under carbing and finishing off with forcing any extra co2 i needed into them, i also most likely over pitched the CB-1 by putting 5.5g (half a pack) into each keg. I also most likely did not wait long enough (6 days) for the yeast, sugar and co2 to do it's thing...but it seemed well carb'd when i sampled before crashing (most likely another mistake!) and seemed even better the first couple pints i drank after cold crashing? I just assumed those things if not done properly would result in over or under carb'd beer and not some crazy off flavors. I thought that natural carbing might be my big take away from this thread...would help scrub any o2 picked up when racking and help extend the shelf life of my favorite style...as usually with force carbing the NEIPA's i have made in the past were incredible first couple days of drinking from the keg, even at like 10 days after brewing them...and then from there at about 2 weeks after being tapped if they made it that long they would kind of start to clear up and turn into like a fine session ipa but 2 or 3 weeks was about as long as they would stay hazy and super juicy.

So i am also wondering if possibly the combo of adding priming sugar and the beer not being fully attenuated coming out of the FV and adding so much cb-1 has got the blend of 4 different yeasts doing some strange things in the keg even at the 40 degrees i serve at...i turned the temp down 2 days ago to 36f and one keg got better (citra) and the other worse (mosaic). Also of note I was worried since the mosaic keg had less headspace (like hardly any) that it was going to get over carb'd so after only like 4 days of priming i reluctantly pulled the pressure relief valve and let out a bunch of co2...and that is the keg that started out better but is now flat after being in the keezer for 7 days??? i pulled it out of the keezer this morning and put it in my living room at room temp in hopes warming it up might get the yeast to clean some things up...long shot i know.

I guess it is also possible as i am sure someone here will point out that i just simply got an infection somewhere....that seems unlikely to me as the beer started out so great and it wasn't until it was going on 3 or 4 days of being at 40 degrees that it started turning on me. I also used my same sanitation procedures with star san as always and have never had an infection in the past.

The off flavor is reminiscent of the only time i used those priming pellets and they caused a excellent ipa to have the same kind of harsh, astringency....but would that really stick out one day and then fade the next...or is that just my pallet and how i perceive the beers differently from day to day?

Whatever it is i am completely befuddled.

Anyone have any similar experiences or any ideas as to what could possibly causing the off flavor? I do have a slight recollection of a saison i tried to naturally carb in the keg several years back that when i poured the first couple pints i thought it had gone bad or had some infection but after cold crashing and waiting again a couple weeks to pour again it was excellent.

Thanks in advance for any help or insight anyone can provide.

 

[chieftain]

need some help fellas. will try and be precise and short as possible, but want to give as much pertinent info as possible so hopefully someone can shed some light on my problem.
all thoughts and comments welcome.

1st off...love the thread, so great...... and informative as it is entertaining.

so long time brewer and very familiar with the NEIPA style over the last couple years...always used conan or 1318, but after reading all this i couldn't help but try this blend, as i too love all the TH beers i have had.

brewed a 10 gallon batch

Yeast pitched 22g S-04, 3g T-58 and 1g WB-06.
i estimated SG at 1.089 and FG at 1.018 shooting for something almost around 9% ABV which i know is not exactly a julius clone, but have been liking a lot of the DDH-DIPA's i have been trying lately from Other Half, Trillium, etc.

Simple Malt bill:
l
77.14% ---27lb Marris Otter - Bairds
8.57%----3lb Oat Malt
5.71%----2lb Vienna
8.57%----3lb Carafoam
Total 35lbs

Hops (kind of ridiculous amounts now that i am posting this. Ha!)
4 Warrior pellets 2016 15min
2 Columbus pellets 2017 15min
4 Columbus pellets 2017 5min
2 Centennial pellets 2016 5min
4 Centennial pellets 2016 0 (flame out)
2 Columbus pellets 2017 0 (flame out)
3.5 Citra flowers 2017 0(flame out)
6 Citra pellets 2017 dry
4 Mosaic pellets 2017 dry
2 Amarillo pellets 2017 dry
2 Citra pellets 2017 (keg1) keg
2 Mosaic pellets 2017 (keg2) keg

Water treatment was same as i have always used for this style:
Filtered tap water, Mash 5.2 Stabilizer in mash, 2 teaspoons Calcium Chloride at end of boil. Pretty simple but has always yielded excellent results for me.

Primary Fermentation was 10 days at ambient temps in my basement (65-68F)

I added the first batch of dry hops 30 hours after yeast pitch at high kreausen.
Added the keg hops to a mesh screen torpedo and place them in the bottom of the kegs, purged o2, racked beer on top, added 4oz priming sugar and half a pack of CB-1 yeast to each keg. Closed them up, purged o2 again and put a little pressure on each and put them in the corner of my living room. 6 days later I put kegs in keezer to cold crash at 39 degrees.

So i took samples at time of racking and it was really amazing. Could of drank it warm and uncarb'd it so good. Definitely had a little noticeable banana and bubblegum with no clove. Maybe a little trace of the tartness from the S-04 people describe....but even uncarb'd mouthfeel was great.

The only two things i did differently than the previous NEIPA's i have made was using the dry yeast blend and this was my first attempt at natural carbing the beer....i typically force carb as it is easy, quick and always tastes great.

The first pint to pour from each keg had some hop particles, sediment, etc ..no issues and the beer was pouring a nice hazy orange color....and i could smell it from across the room, most incredible aroma ever. The taste was sublime...my notes have the rare "one of the best beers i have ever had, much less made myself" etc type comments. Needless to say i was toasting each and every one of you...iso, hairy hop, couch sending, NJ george, pale indian, etc etc (sorry if i left one of you frequent contributors out)...just knowing i was going to be drowning in this amazing beer for the next 4 weeks or so had me all giddy.

Then it all went downhill from there. After about the 3rd day of being tapped both beers started to get this slightly astringent, somewhat bitter phenolic, harsh off flavor that completely masked the great aroma and distracted so much from the juicy, tropical, citrus fruit flavors i was getting from the hops. It started happening first with keg1 (DDH CITRA) and then the next day with keg2 (DDH MOSAIC)...now i'm like 7 days into both kegs and every day is a new adventure...the citra one settled down quite a bit and i now get some hop aroma and some slight malt and the harsh/phenolic/solventy/yeasty aroma and flavor have retreated some, but still there....and the mosaic one is pretty much flat and still overly harsh with no good hop or malt flavor. It is a complete mystery to me.

Here are my best educated guesses and ideas of what the hell happened based on the literally 100's of batches i have made over the last 20 years.

The overall gist of my theory is my first real attempt at natural carbing was an unmitigated disaster...ruining what would of two of the best kegs i ever made and drank in my life. I most likely used to much priming sugar and should of shot for under carbing and finishing off with forcing any extra co2 i needed into them, i also most likely over pitched the CB-1 by putting 5.5g (half a pack) into each keg. I also most likely did not wait long enough (6 days) for the yeast, sugar and co2 to do it's thing...but it seemed well carb'd when i sampled before crashing (most likely another mistake!) and seemed even better the first couple pints i drank after cold crashing? I just assumed those things if not done properly would result in over or under carb'd beer and not some crazy off flavors. I thought that natural carbing might be my big take away from this thread...would help scrub any o2 picked up when racking and help extend the shelf life of my favorite style...as usually with force carbing the NEIPA's i have made in the past were incredible first couple days of drinking from the keg, even at like 10 days after brewing them...and then from there at about 2 weeks after being tapped if they made it that long they would kind of start to clear up and turn into like a fine session ipa but 2 or 3 weeks was about as long as they would stay hazy and super juicy.

So i am also wondering if possibly the combo of adding priming sugar and the beer not being fully attenuated coming out of the FV and adding so much cb-1 has got the blend of 4 different yeasts doing some strange things in the keg even at the 40 degrees i serve at...i turned the temp down 2 days ago to 36f and one keg got better (citra) and the other worse (mosaic). Also of note I was worried since the mosaic keg had less headspace (like hardly any) that it was going to get over carb'd so after only like 4 days of priming i reluctantly pulled the pressure relief valve and let out a bunch of co2...and that is the keg that started out better but is now flat after being in the keezer for 7 days??? i pulled it out of the keezer this morning and put it in my living room at room temp in hopes warming it up might get the yeast to clean some things up...long shot i know.

I guess it is also possible as i am sure someone here will point out that i just simply got an infection somewhere....that seems unlikely to me as the beer started out so great and it wasn't until it was going on 3 or 4 days of being at 40 degrees that it started turning on me. I also used my same sanitation procedures with star san as always and have never had an infection in the past.

The off flavor is reminiscent of the only time i used those priming pellets and they caused a excellent ipa to have the same kind of harsh, astringency....but would that really stick out one day and then fade the next...or is that just my pallet and how i perceive the beers differently from day to day?

Whatever it is i am completely befuddled.

Anyone have any similar experiences or any ideas as to what could possibly causing the off flavor? I do have a slight recollection of a saison i tried to naturally carb in the keg several years back that when i poured the first couple pints i thought it had gone bad or had some infection but after cold crashing and waiting again a couple weeks to pour again it was excellent.

Thanks in advance for any help or insight anyone can provide.

How did you rack the beer to the kegs?

 

[kc brewer]

How did you rack the beer to the kegs?

speidel 15g fermenter spigot-> vinyl tubing->bottom of keg.

if i picked up an infection while racking wouldn't the off flavor have presented itself 6 days later when i took samples and the first couple days of it being on tap. I can't help but feel the flavor has something to do with yeast, priming sugar and cold temps.

i did just dissolve the priming sugar in hot water without really boiling it and added it to the top of the kegs via the lid with half a pack of cb-1 after racking the beer on top of the 2nd dose of dry hops.

 

[Sbe2]

speidel 15g fermenter spigot-> vinyl tubing->bottom of keg.

if i picked up an infection while racking wouldn't the off flavor have presented itself 6 days later when i took samples and the first couple days of it being on tap. I can't help but feel the flavor has something to do with yeast, priming sugar and cold temps.

i did just dissolve the priming sugar in hot water without really boiling it and added it to the top of the kegs via the lid with half a pack of cb-1 after racking the beer on top of the 2nd dose of dry hops.

I had the same experience when trying to carb with CBC1. The keg always had a yeasty bite to it. But, My taste buds can pick it out easily. That taste never went away for the life of the keg.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

need some help fellas. will try and be precise and short as possible, but want to give as much pertinent info as possible so hopefully someone can shed some light on my problem.
all thoughts and comments welcome.

1st off...love the thread, so great...... and informative as it is entertaining.

so long time brewer and very familiar with the NEIPA style over the last couple years...always used conan or 1318, but after reading all this i couldn't help but try this blend, as i too love all the TH beers i have had.

brewed a 10 gallon batch

Yeast pitched 22g S-04, 3g T-58 and 1g WB-06.
i estimated SG at 1.089 and FG at 1.018 shooting for something almost around 9% ABV which i know is not exactly a julius clone, but have been liking a lot of the DDH-DIPA's i have been trying lately from Other Half, Trillium, etc.

Simple Malt bill:
l
77.14% ---27lb Marris Otter - Bairds
8.57%----3lb Oat Malt
5.71%----2lb Vienna
8.57%----3lb Carafoam
Total 35lbs

Hops (kind of ridiculous amounts now that i am posting this. Ha!)
4 Warrior pellets 2016 15min
2 Columbus pellets 2017 15min
4 Columbus pellets 2017 5min
2 Centennial pellets 2016 5min
4 Centennial pellets 2016 0 (flame out)
2 Columbus pellets 2017 0 (flame out)
3.5 Citra flowers 2017 0(flame out)
6 Citra pellets 2017 dry
4 Mosaic pellets 2017 dry
2 Amarillo pellets 2017 dry
2 Citra pellets 2017 (keg1) keg
2 Mosaic pellets 2017 (keg2) keg

Water treatment was same as i have always used for this style:
Filtered tap water, Mash 5.2 Stabilizer in mash, 2 teaspoons Calcium Chloride at end of boil. Pretty simple but has always yielded excellent results for me.

Primary Fermentation was 10 days at ambient temps in my basement (65-68F)

I added the first batch of dry hops 30 hours after yeast pitch at high kreausen.
Added the keg hops to a mesh screen torpedo and place them in the bottom of the kegs, purged o2, racked beer on top, added 4oz priming sugar and half a pack of CB-1 yeast to each keg. Closed them up, purged o2 again and put a little pressure on each and put them in the corner of my living room. 6 days later I put kegs in keezer to cold crash at 39 degrees.

So i took samples at time of racking and it was really amazing. Could of drank it warm and uncarb'd it so good. Definitely had a little noticeable banana and bubblegum with no clove. Maybe a little trace of the tartness from the S-04 people describe....but even uncarb'd mouthfeel was great.

The only two things i did differently than the previous NEIPA's i have made was using the dry yeast blend and this was my first attempt at natural carbing the beer....i typically force carb as it is easy, quick and always tastes great.

The first pint to pour from each keg had some hop particles, sediment, etc ..no issues and the beer was pouring a nice hazy orange color....and i could smell it from across the room, most incredible aroma ever. The taste was sublime...my notes have the rare "one of the best beers i have ever had, much less made myself" etc type comments. Needless to say i was toasting each and every one of you...iso, hairy hop, couch sending, NJ george, pale indian, etc etc (sorry if i left one of you frequent contributors out)...just knowing i was going to be drowning in this amazing beer for the next 4 weeks or so had me all giddy.

Then it all went downhill from there. After about the 3rd day of being tapped both beers started to get this slightly astringent, somewhat bitter phenolic, harsh off flavor that completely masked the great aroma and distracted so much from the juicy, tropical, citrus fruit flavors i was getting from the hops. It started happening first with keg1 (DDH CITRA) and then the next day with keg2 (DDH MOSAIC)...now i'm like 7 days into both kegs and every day is a new adventure...the citra one settled down quite a bit and i now get some hop aroma and some slight malt and the harsh/phenolic/solventy/yeasty aroma and flavor have retreated some, but still there....and the mosaic one is pretty much flat and still overly harsh with no good hop or malt flavor. It is a complete mystery to me.

Here are my best educated guesses and ideas of what the hell happened based on the literally 100's of batches i have made over the last 20 years.

The overall gist of my theory is my first real attempt at natural carbing was an unmitigated disaster...ruining what would of two of the best kegs i ever made and drank in my life. I most likely used to much priming sugar and should of shot for under carbing and finishing off with forcing any extra co2 i needed into them, i also most likely over pitched the CB-1 by putting 5.5g (half a pack) into each keg. I also most likely did not wait long enough (6 days) for the yeast, sugar and co2 to do it's thing...but it seemed well carb'd when i sampled before crashing (most likely another mistake!) and seemed even better the first couple pints i drank after cold crashing? I just assumed those things if not done properly would result in over or under carb'd beer and not some crazy off flavors. I thought that natural carbing might be my big take away from this thread...would help scrub any o2 picked up when racking and help extend the shelf life of my favorite style...as usually with force carbing the NEIPA's i have made in the past were incredible first couple days of drinking from the keg, even at like 10 days after brewing them...and then from there at about 2 weeks after being tapped if they made it that long they would kind of start to clear up and turn into like a fine session ipa but 2 or 3 weeks was about as long as they would stay hazy and super juicy.

So i am also wondering if possibly the combo of adding priming sugar and the beer not being fully attenuated coming out of the FV and adding so much cb-1 has got the blend of 4 different yeasts doing some strange things in the keg even at the 40 degrees i serve at...i turned the temp down 2 days ago to 36f and one keg got better (citra) and the other worse (mosaic). Also of note I was worried since the mosaic keg had less headspace (like hardly any) that it was going to get over carb'd so after only like 4 days of priming i reluctantly pulled the pressure relief valve and let out a bunch of co2...and that is the keg that started out better but is now flat after being in the keezer for 7 days??? i pulled it out of the keezer this morning and put it in my living room at room temp in hopes warming it up might get the yeast to clean some things up...long shot i know.

I guess it is also possible as i am sure someone here will point out that i just simply got an infection somewhere....that seems unlikely to me as the beer started out so great and it wasn't until it was going on 3 or 4 days of being at 40 degrees that it started turning on me. I also used my same sanitation procedures with star san as always and have never had an infection in the past.

The off flavor is reminiscent of the only time i used those priming pellets and they caused a excellent ipa to have the same kind of harsh, astringency....but would that really stick out one day and then fade the next...or is that just my pallet and how i perceive the beers differently from day to day?

Whatever it is i am completely befuddled.

Anyone have any similar experiences or any ideas as to what could possibly causing the off flavor? I do have a slight recollection of a saison i tried to naturally carb in the keg several years back that when i poured the first couple pints i thought it had gone bad or had some infection but after cold crashing and waiting again a couple weeks to pour again it was excellent.

Thanks in advance for any help or insight anyone can provide.

Would you be able to describe the off flavor a little more? Was it phenolic, like pepper, clove, etc.? Or more like chlorophenols, kind of medicinal, bandaid like? Or fusely, almost like cheap vodka? Or astringent, like a drying mouthfeel?

 

[couchsending]

You added way too much CBC-1. You technically don’t even need it especially if you transferred before FG was reached. 1-2g is all you need but even then there is so much yeast in suspension anyways you only need the sugar and that’s if you’ve already hit FG. I have no idea what the CBC-1 even does in these beers. Supposedly it’s a killer yeast so people think it stops the diastatecus yeast from fermenting but I don’t think that’s the case. In a beer that has been aging for 6 months and has a very minute amount of yeast left you still only need 1-2g of yeast along with the sugar.

You need to start transferring in a closed environment with as close to zero PPb O2 if you want these beer to really shine for a while. Can you force transfer with a Speidel? I’d suggest following the keg purging methods outlined on the Lowdo website. It makes a huge difference.

Do you make many Belgian Beers? Is the taste just phenolic? Most likely it’s a combo of too much yeast, spicey phenols, and way too much Hop particulate in suspension.

It’s not infected

If I’m adding yeast/sugar I always do it in primary and give it a couple hours to start doing it’s thjng, then transfer.

 

[TheHairyHop]

4 days of priming i reluctantly pulled the pressure relief valve and let out a bunch of co2...and that is the keg that started out better but is now flat after being in the keezer for 7 days???

This is weird to me. Unless I'm missing something, you have an issue here. Are your kegs not sealing properly? Just hitting the relief valve shouldn't make your beer flat.

The overcarbonation sounds like potential hop creep. The off flavors... I'm not sure. The thing to do is just do everything EXACTLY (timing and everything) the same and just force carb. Since it seems you're into split batches, force carb one over a week and burst carb the other. I'm thinking that you could have pulled too much yeast into the serving kegs. The CBC and resident yeasts went at it over the new gift of sugar, and produced a bunch of stress compounds. Did you rehydrate the CBC according to the instructions on the package?

 

[TheHairyHop]

You added way too much CBC-1.

agreed

You need to start transferring in a closed environment with as close to zero PPb O2 if you want these beer to really shine for a while. Can you force transfer with a Speidel? I’d suggest following the keg purging methods outlined on the Lowdo website. It makes a huge difference.

also agreed

If I’m adding yeast/sugar I always do it in primary and give it a couple hours to start doing it’s thjng, then transfer.

I've done this as well, or hydrate the yeast and add the priming solution to the serving keg and wait a few hours.

as far as lodo serving kegs. I can't tell which method I prefer. Filling with starsan and then pumping it out with CO2, using the CO2 from fermentation for continuous purging, or adding priming solution and yeast, waiting a bit, and then purging once with CO2

 

[NJGeorge]

speidel 15g fermenter spigot-> vinyl tubing->bottom of keg.

if i picked up an infection while racking wouldn't the off flavor have presented itself 6 days later when i took samples and the first couple days of it being on tap. I can't help but feel the flavor has something to do with yeast, priming sugar and cold temps.

i did just dissolve the priming sugar in hot water without really boiling it and added it to the top of the kegs via the lid with half a pack of cb-1 after racking the beer on top of the 2nd dose of dry hops.

This is a great thread indeed and lots to learn here. As said by couchsending, these beers are very, very sensitive to o2 and you want to make sure they are 100% not exposed to it. From what you mentioned and from the looks of it in your profile pic (not trying to be mean lol), Id say the beer is being oxidized when openly transferred to the bottom of your kegs. You might not notice it right away but I bet its happening. Natural carbing to scrub o2 wont fix the exposure the beer had when transferring to the keg. This might also be where you're getting those funky flavors as said by TheHairyHop. You need to flush everything with co2 including hoses and close transfer this beer. Give it another shot but skip the natural carb with priming sugar and absolutely make sure everything is purged with co2 and see how it tastes. Good luck!

 

[Sbe2]

Idk I have had pretty good luck spunding. I open transfer with around 6-10 pts left and my NEIPAs are vibrant for at least a month (usually they don’t last that long).

 

[TheHairyHop]

Idk I have had pretty good luck spunding. I open transfer with around 6-10 pts left and my NEIPAs are vibrant for at least a month (usually they don’t last that long).

Do you get a bunch of yeast at the bottom of your serving keg? That's a decent amount of points

 

[melville]

From Julius' new history:

"In 2011, not long after learning the fundamentals of brewing, I felt comfortable branching out, experimenting, and chasing flavor profiles I had not yet tasted in a beer. Armed with an obsession for fresh fruit juice - specifically mango & orange - I began down a path to brew a beer that was as delicious and bursting with flavor as the aforementioned juice."

Nate's description for Julius: “I taste predominantly mango and a bounty of sweet citrus fruit (think orange—not grapefruit); hints of melon also linger on the edges.”

Specifically crafting a beer for Mango & Orange:

Curiosity 26: "El Dorado and a splash of Citra: potent and citrusy, leading our palates to flavors of orange, mango, and a mixed bouquet tropical fruit."

Curiosity 25: El Dorado & Kohatu: The aroma is beautifully juicy, leading our palates to flavors of pineapple, stone fruit, melon, and a hint of lime.

Every Curiosity beer with Amarillo has "orange" as a descriptor.

Assume 3 hops: Citra, Amarillo, El Dorado.

(caveat: most every beery with Mosaic has mango as descriptor, but Julius isn't Alter Ego)

 

[Sbe2]

Do you get a bunch of yeast at the bottom of your serving keg? That's a decent amount of points

Yes, The first pint looks like this


After that I am good, I may get a stuck poppet every now and then, but it’s easy enough to fix. I try not to move the kegs once they are tapped.

I have thought about cutting the dip tubes or buying the Clear Beer Draft System with the screen.

 

[couchsending]

Idk I have had pretty good luck spunding. I open transfer with around 6-10 pts left and my NEIPAs are vibrant for at least a month (usually they don’t last that long).

Yeah that seems like a lot. I believe you technically only need 2pts of gravity drop to fully carbonate a keg. And if you’re adding hops to that spunded keg chances are good you’ll get even more than 2 points. I’d worry about transferring to early and causing fermentation derives off flavors, especially acetaldehyde. I guess it kind of depends on the flocculation characteristics of the yeast you use if a lot gets transferred or not.

I haven’t had as good a luck spunding lately. I’ve been trying it with the small 2.5g experiments I do in carboys as I feel it is the best way to keep significant amounts of O2 out. I’ve been using 3g kegs, filling with SS, pushing out half, then dropping a very loosely bagged amount of hops in and suspending them above the SS with dental floss. I then purge the half filled keg 11x at 30 PSI then push out the rest of the SS. I’ve been getting much more explosive/lasting aroma by bagging a large quantity of hops and putting them in my SS Conicals with a few points to go and installing the force transfer piece at that time. The PRV will release any pressure that the Conical can’t handle but it seems to keep positive pressure while slowly cold crashing.

I think my next experiment is going to involve adding some hops to an empty keg (and maybe sugar) at the start of fermentation and hooking it up to the conical to let the CO2 from fermentation purge the keg and transfer to the keg when fermentation is over. Might even crash the FV for a few days to the mid 50s to try and transfer as little yeast as possible and keep the keg at 58-60 for a while. Not sure if exposing the hops to that long at room temp will degrade them or not.

 

[couchsending]

From Julius' new history:

"In 2011, not long after learning the fundamentals of brewing, I felt comfortable branching out, experimenting, and chasing flavor profiles I had not yet tasted in a beer. Armed with an obsession for fresh fruit juice - specifically mango & orange - I began down a path to brew a beer that was as delicious and bursting with flavor as the aforementioned juice."

Nate's description for Julius: “I taste predominantly mango and a bounty of sweet citrus fruit (think orange—not grapefruit); hints of melon also linger on the edges.”

Specifically crafting a beer for Mango & Orange:

Curiosity 26: "El Dorado and a splash of Citra: potent and citrusy, leading our palates to flavors of orange, mango, and a mixed bouquet tropical fruit."

Curiosity 25: El Dorado & Kohatu: The aroma is beautifully juicy, leading our palates to flavors of pineapple, stone fruit, melon, and a hint of lime.

Every Curiosity beer with Amarillo has "orange" as a descriptor.

Assume 3 hops: Citra, Amarillo, El Dorado.

(caveat: most every beery with Mosaic has mango as descriptor, but Julius isn't Alter Ego)

Hasn’t Nate said that he doesn’t like El Dorado.

I think a lot of the descriptors people use when talking about TH beers are from the biotransformation caused by these alternate yeasts. I think the melon or honeydew everyone talks about is specifically caused by CBC-1 and certain hops. The Bubblegum comes specifically from the POF+ yeasts interaction with hops. Listened to a GBH podcast a few weeks ago where a brewer (who I guarantee reads this thread or has) was talking about making an IPA by blending 4 separate fermentations with their 4 different house yeasts (Conan, Chico, 3711, Trois) and how the 3711 produced a ton of bubblegum when it was dry hopped.

I’m still having a hard time believing they are added all together at the beginning of fermentation. Might try doing an S-04 ferment, letting it finish, even letting it flocc and then adding a decent amount of sugar, (more than you would for priming) hops, as well as a gram or two of each T-58, WB-06, maybe even CBC-1, just to see what happens. All of my mixed primary ferments have produced some levels of phenolics I don’t get from TH beers, well hidden or not they’re still there. (Specifically clove)

 

[couchsending]

And in regards to Mango.. I recently made a beer with some wine yeast that was all Mosaic hot side. I dumped some Trub from the fermenter after 24 hours and it was so unbelievably strong Mango juice... It was crazy. Of course that didn’t really make it into the final product but it was rather interesting nonetheless.

 

[melville]

Hasn’t Nate said that he doesn’t like El Dorado.

Classic misdirection. But seriously, ah yes he does say that on Twitter. Back to Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe. Though I do want to try swapping Summit for Simcoe.