Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[JohnConnor]

Hasn’t Nate said that he doesn’t like El Dorado.

I think a lot of the descriptors people use when talking about TH beers are from the biotransformation caused by these alternate yeasts. I think the melon or honeydew everyone talks about is specifically caused by CBC-1 and certain hops. The Bubblegum comes specifically from the POF+ yeasts interaction with hops. Listened to a GBH podcast a few weeks ago where a brewer (who I guarantee reads this thread or has) was talking about making an IPA by blending 4 separate fermentations with their 4 different house yeasts (Conan, Chico, 3711, Trois) and how the 3711 produced a ton of bubblegum when it was dry hopped.

I’m still having a hard time believing they are added all together at the beginning of fermentation. Might try doing an S-04 ferment, letting it finish, even letting it flocc and then adding a decent amount of sugar, (more than you would for priming) hops, as well as a gram or two of each T-58, WB-06, maybe even CBC-1, just to see what happens. All of my mixed primary ferments have produced some levels of phenolics I don’t get from TH beers, well hidden or not they’re still there. (Specifically clove)

I did read an interview (I can't remember what brewery it was... Green Flash maybe?) where they were talking about their belgian IPA. They pitch their belgian strain first. 24 later, they hit it with chico. Mainly to help finish up but also to help the belgian yeast drop. Maybe invert what you're proposing? Maybe s04 is just there as a supporter and floccer?

 

[JohnConnor]

Classic misdirection. But seriously, ah yes he does say that on Twitter. Back to Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe. Though I do want to try swapping Summit for Simcoe.

I keep going to back to the issues they had sourcing citra during the hop shortage. And his other quote saying a lot of people guess and they're never right. I'm going to have to assume a lot of people have guessed "citra, amarillo, simcoe." That's almost default at this point. Now, he could just be saying no to be difficult. But it also makes me think of other not so popular hops that might combine to make that orange note. Belma/Galena/Amarillo... established stuff that wasn't/isn't in high demand.

 

[melville]

Kettle finings a bit more dialed in. Last one came close to clearing once it got in the keg, this one to my eye exactly duplicates the level of haze and the color in doppelganger.

 

[couchsending]

I keep going to back to the issues they had sourcing citra during the hop shortage. And his other quote saying a lot of people guess and they're never right. I'm going to have to assume a lot of people have guessed "citra, amarillo, simcoe." That's almost default at this point. Now, he could just be saying no to be difficult. But it also makes me think of other not so popular hops that might combine to make that orange note. Belma/Galena/Amarillo... established stuff that wasn't/isn't in high demand.

I’ve been really pleased with the amount of orange I’ve gotten from Bravo... too much and it gets a little floral but adding it late seems to amp up the orange a decent amount. I’m sure you could find some decent Summit out there if you had good contracts. I’ve heard of it being really orangey when it’s good but I think as Home brewers we just get onion and garlic.

I’m going to start using 007 more.. it can have this really cool orange creamsicle kind of aroma to it.

 

[couchsending]

I did read an interview (I can't remember what brewery it was... Green Flash maybe?) where they were talking about their belgian IPA. They pitch their belgian strain first. 24 later, they hit it with chico. Mainly to help finish up but also to help the belgian yeast drop. Maybe invert what you're proposing? Maybe s04 is just there as a supporter and floccer?

I think you would get even more Belgian esters and phenols doing it that way though.

 

[day_trippr]

Belma? Really?

 

[melville]

Very similar in appearance (allowing for mine being 7.0 ABV) and mouthfeel. Ester finish seems really close to me. But not necessarily the same as Haze, Very Green, or Lights On — one size does not fit all.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

View attachment 568708
Very similar in appearance (allowing for mine being 7.0 ABV) and mouthfeel. Ester finish seems really close to me. But not necessarily the same as Haze, Very Green, or Lights On — one size does not fit all.

Looks beautiful! What was this grist/yeast ratio?

 

[melville]

Looks beautiful! What was this grist/yeast ratio?

20% Weyermann carafoam,
4% TF caramalt,
6% Weyermann vienna,
10% TF oat malt
30% Rahr 2-row and
30% Rahr Pale

Yeast % is tricky But 1 pack of 1318 | 0.7g T-58 | 0.2 g WB-06

Fermented at 63F.

used .1g of whirlfloc per gallon of wort in the kettle 5 minutes before FO.

Water was. 200:150 Cl:SO4 used NaCl to 60ppm of Na, the rest was KCl.

Did second dry hop under pressure at 68F with 10g sugar and 0.5 CBC1 (3.5 gallons of beer) for like 3 days before putting in the fridge and burst carbing.

Brewing again this weekend, will probably dial down whirlfloc to .07g/gal to see what happens and bump T-58 to .8 and WB-06 to .3 to test thresholds.

edit: and I am using 1318 again.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

20% Weyermann carafoam,
4% TF caramalt,
6% Weyermann vienna,
10% TF oat malt
30% Rahr 2-row and
30% Rahr Pale

Yeast % is tricky But 1 pack of 1318 | 0.7g T-58 | 0.2 g WB-06

Fermented at 63F.

used .1g of whirlfloc per gallon of wort in the kettle 5 minutes before FO.

Water was. 200:150 Cl:SO4 used NaCl to 60ppm of Na, the rest was KCl.

Did second dry hop under pressure at 68F with 10g sugar and 0.5 CBC1 (3.5 gallons of beer) for like 3 days before putting in the fridge and burst carbing.

Brewing again this weekend, will probably dial down whirlfloc to .07g/gal to see what happens and bump T-58 to .8 and WB-06 to .3 to test thresholds.

edit: and I am using 1318 again.

Sounds awesome!

Did you make a starter for the 1318 or just throw in the pack?

 

[melville]

Sounds awesome!

Did you make a starter for the 1318 or just throw in the pack?

Yeah I just threw it in there. (did rehydrate the dry yeast)

 

[melville]

One thing that's interesting, Bright: Galaxy much hazier than Doppelganger and Haze. Similar levels as Very Green and crazy good.

 

[couchsending]

One thing that's interesting, Bright: Galaxy much hazier than Doppelganger and Haze. Similar levels as Very Green and crazy good.

Polyphenols for the win! Did you see the Galaxy Skadoosh? Haziest beer Alchemist has ever made!

 

[melville]

Polyphenols for the win! Did you see the Galaxy Skadoosh? Haziest beer Alchemist has ever made!

I'd forgotten about that video! (I love watching Kimmich drink his beers). Both Bright: Galaxy and Very Green just milky levels of haze and both just shy of being a bit chalky in the finish. Bright: Mosaic always a relatively clear beer, crazy what a hop can do.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Bright: Mosaic always a relatively clear beer, crazy what a hop can do.

Yeah, I had Bright w/ Citra a while back and I was pretty surprised at how clear it was. I mean, it wasn't crystal clear but it had that slight-chill-haze look to it. Didn't pour the sediment obviously. I was always a little surprised at how hazy the regular Bright (Mosaic) looks in their Overview section on the website. My experience with it has been similar to yours, @melville, relatively clear.

 

[JohnConnor]

Belma? Really?

Descriptors of orange/melon/citrus... anything is possible.

 

[couchsending]

There is little done to “make” Bright hazy. I thought I had heard Nate say it was 95% base malt. Maybe some Carafoam/c20/c40 too. It is dry hopped after fermentation as well and 1056/s05/001 will clear on its own. Got a couple cans of Bright Citra/Amarillo a few weeks back and unless you rolled the can around it poured “relatively” clear.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Did they change the description of Bright again? A couple of weeks ago their description said something to the effect of skipping biotransformation dry hop timing, and contrasted that with their other beers. I think others noted it on this thread and I looked on their Overview section and saw it too. But now the descriptions seem to have gone back to the old ones.

Makes me wonder if they are dropping hints for the likes of us haha. Between that, and when they mentioned spunding in one of the Curiosities and then mentioned blending separate ferments in another.

 

[NJGeorge]

One thing that's interesting, Bright: Galaxy much hazier than Doppelganger and Haze. Similar levels as Very Green and crazy good.

My pretty much all galaxy ipa with s-05 came out hazy af. 20% carafoam as well.

 

[melville]

My pretty much all galaxy ipa with s-05 came out hazy af. 20% carafoam as well.

Wow, wild that it's specific to a particular hop. I will say there's something about the ester-free profile in that Bright Galaxy. If Tired Hands or HF was doing a S-05/S-04 thing, I could see the appeal in that.

 

[hcb_ryk]

20% Weyermann carafoam,
4% TF caramalt,
6% Weyermann vienna,
10% TF oat malt
30% Rahr 2-row and
30% Rahr Pale

Yeast % is tricky But 1 pack of 1318 | 0.7g T-58 | 0.2 g WB-06

Fermented at 63F.

used .1g of whirlfloc per gallon of wort in the kettle 5 minutes before FO.

Water was. 200:150 Cl:SO4 used NaCl to 60ppm of Na, the rest was KCl.

Did second dry hop under pressure at 68F with 10g sugar and 0.5 CBC1 (3.5 gallons of beer) for like 3 days before putting in the fridge and burst carbing.

Brewing again this weekend, will probably dial down whirlfloc to .07g/gal to see what happens and bump T-58 to .8 and WB-06 to .3 to test thresholds.

edit: and I am using 1318 again.

@melville

What hops did you end up using?

 

[melville]

@melville

What hops did you end up using?

This was Citra, Hallertau Blanc, Simcoe.

 

[melville]

Anyone know/heard anything about Trillium's new "fermentation profile?"

 

[couchsending]

I tagged JC in a post on BA asking for any insight.. he’s usually pretty active and forthcoming over there. We’ll see if he responds with anything. Someone said it reminded them of the old pre Canton beers in bombers. Which if that’s the case I’m all for. Those beers seemed to be more well rounded than the stuff in cans from the last few years but I only had a few bottles and that was a while ago.

 

[chrisisnapping]

Yeast % is tricky But 1 pack of 1318 | 0.7g T-58 | 0.2 g WB-06

what was your fermentation temp schedule? I was thinking about doing a test trial of the yeast mixing with some fall 2017 s-04 and some new T-58 (no WB-06), but I also have some imperial organic juice (1318) waiting to be used as well.

 

[melville]

what was your fermentation temp schedule? I was thinking about doing a test trial of the yeast mixing with some fall 2017 s-04 and some new T-58 (no WB-06), but I also have some imperial organic juice (1318) waiting to be used as well.

Chilled to 60F and then set it to 63F, till I moved to a keg with the second dry hop, sugar, CBC1 (day 6). That sat at room temp for a few days, then into the fridge.

 

[chrisisnapping]

Would the lower temp impact esters thrown by 1318? I normally do 64 and up, though I suppose 63 will keep it free of clove right?

May change my brew day to do a 5.5 gallon batch instead of a 3.5 batch and pitch imperial juice and 2grams of t-58.

 

[droder1]

I tagged JC in a post on BA asking for any insight.. he’s usually pretty active and forthcoming over there. We’ll see if he responds with anything. Someone said it reminded them of the old pre Canton beers in bombers. Which if that’s the case I’m all for. Those beers seemed to be more well rounded than the stuff in cans from the last few years but I only had a few bottles and that was a while ago.

Great - let's hope he responds. Agree he's usually pretty open. Oldsock had something on his blog a while back saying trillium was on their third yeast strain. Wonder if this is round 4 or dialing in the temps on the existing strain ...

 

[divrack]

That carbonation sounds familiar to British ears, where we're more used to cask and bottle conditioning... Unless they're messing about with nitro "carbonation"? What format was this?

Is the oniony thing new? People seem to have suddenly started talking about onions in Citra, like certain batches of the 2017 were picked at the wrong time or something and ended up going oniony. Wouldn't be the first time, but something seems to have definitely "happened" with some batches of 2017 Citra.

That's what I was wondering about it although I haven't been within a thousand miles of the beer. Id also been wondering about nitro for an neipa for other reasons and was literally going to ask here if it had been done to anyone's knowledge or if it would work in bottles. I'm not sure it actually dissolves in the liquid does it? I thought it was maybe only mixed in in the pour but I'm not sure about that by any means. Actually I just went to read about it in the interweb. It is dissolved but the bubbles form too slowly if not agitated during pour hence the widget in cans which is nitrogen gas. I wonder if with a higher mix of co2 and more nucleation sites provided by hop saturation the nitro would come out of suspension?
Who has a Guinness tap set up for science?!

 

[divrack]

Bubble science of nitro...

Bubble Growth with Multiple Gas Species: Stout Beers
Stout beers owe much of their characteristic taste—especially the creamy texture of their head—to
the fact that they contain a mixture of dissolved carbon dioxide and nitrogen. Including dissolved
nitrogen in a carbonated beer has two effects that make these beers special: on one hand it reduces the
acidity, and on the other makes bubbles smaller. Nonetheless, it has a downside, which is that the low
solubility of nitrogen makes the time needed for bubbles to grow (and rise) much larger than for CO2
ones; therefore, the need to patiently wait for one’s stout pint. Furthermore, while drafting a beer from
a tap generates enough mixing to promote bubble growth, opening a can or bottle does not, which
makes necessary an additional help to generate the foam.
The reason for this slower mass transfer was explored by Lee et al. [31], who extended the model
of Liger-Belair et al. [32] for the growth of bubbles in Champagne (where they are composed solely
of CO2) to the case of a mixture between nitrogen and carbon dioxide. In few words, and without
entering into the details of the mathematical model, the amount of CO2 contained in a stout beer is
smaller than the saturation amount at ambient pressure, as the gas mixture used to pressurize the
beer contains mostly nitrogen. For instance, [31] report partial bottling pressures of PCO2
= 0.80 and
PN2
= 3.00 bars for CO2 and nitrogen, respectively. Thus, when the beer is exposed to ambient pressure,
it is still weakly oversaturated in carbon dioxide, which then makes nitrogen the main gas that will
make bubbles grow from nucleation sites. Nonetheless, once the bubble is formed, some CO2 will
flow into it until the partial pressure of this gas matches the saturation pressure PCO2
. Consequently,
because nitrogen is much slower in making bubbles grow due to its low solubility (about 50 times less
soluble than CO2), the process of bubble growth becomes equally slow in a stout beer compared to
a carbonated beer.
As we said above, the mixing generated when a beer is draft from a tap is still able to make
nitrogen bubbles grow reasonably fast, but this is not the case when these beers are poured from a can
or bottle. To promote bubble growth, these containers have in their interior some devices, or widgets,
that generate a turbulent gas jet when the bottle or can depressurizes (i.e., when it is open). For instance,
Guinness cans (see Figure 3) use a plastic sphere pressurized with nitrogen at the bottling pressure
that breaks when exposed to ambient pressure. This widget enhances the formation of bubbles when
pouring a beer into a glass, quickly forming the creamy head.
Figure 3. Widget inside a Guinness can. The hollow ball is filled up with pressurized gas at the same
pressure than the can. When the can is opened, the widget breaks and generates a turbulent gas jet that
introduces the mixing necessary to trigger foam formation

 

[melville]

Would the lower temp impact esters thrown by 1318? I normally do 64 and up, though I suppose 63 will keep it free of clove right?

May change my brew day to do a 5.5 gallon batch instead of a 3.5 batch and pitch imperial juice and 2grams of t-58.

Lower 60's is where I've been using S-04 in order to reduce it's S-04'ness. I also had hoped to reduce some of 1318's "qualities" by doing the same. I wasn't expecting it to be so similar, because my experiment with Conan wasn't, but oddly this seemed closer than previous attempts with S-04 — bear in mind that I don't always have Tree House on hand to compare like I do this time, and that the similarity (in a yeasty way) was largely with one beer.

Cooler thing to me was getting close to mouthfeel, appearance, and carb across the 3/5 TH beers (Haze, Lights On, Doppelgänger). Bright: Galaxy and Very Green both notably more milky/hazy as discussed above.

Yesterday had an Other Half beer vs TH, more aroma and mouthfeel than TH (and my beer) for sure. But rougher around the edges, and the Galaxy hops presented very differently — definitely prefer TH's galaxy flavor than Other Half's. Hop selection matters and obviously execution matters.

On core beers it seems to me TH has less aroma (because S-04 subdues them?) is thinner than the average NEIPA, with less haze (at least the milky kind of haze) because of grist and finings(?), but has pillowy mouthfeel because of water and carb, and bright, rounded saturated hop flavor.

 

[chrisisnapping]

Lower 60's is where I've been using S-04 in order to reduce it's S-04'ness. I also had hoped to reduce some of 1318's "qualities" by doing the same. I wasn't expecting it to be so similar, because my experiment with Conan wasn't, but oddly this seemed closer than previous attempts with S-04 — bear in mind that I don't always have Tree House on hand to compare like I do this time, and that the similarity (in a yeasty way) was largely with one beer.

Cooler thing to me was getting close to mouthfeel, appearance, and carb across the 3/5 TH beers (Haze, Lights On, Doppelgänger). Bright: Galaxy and Very Green both notably more milky/hazy as discussed above.

Yesterday had an Other Half beer vs TH, more aroma and mouthfeel than TH (and my beer) for sure. But rougher around the edges, and the Galaxy hops presented very differently — definitely prefer TH's galaxy flavor than Other Half's. Hop selection matters and obviously execution matters.

On core beers it seems to me TH has less aroma (because S-04 subdues them?) is thinner than the average NEIPA, with less haze (at least the milky kind of haze) because of grist and finings(?), but has pillowy mouthfeel because of water and carb, and bright, rounded saturated hop flavor.

I may have missed it -- but how did you like the conan attempt, what has been your preference of conan vs 1318? I also have some older barbarian on hand that should have the viability needed if i were to pitch ~3-3.5g (and if not I have time for a starter), with 1-1.5G of T-58.

Which Other Half Beer? It's been a solid 6-7 months since I've had an OH - but their "mouthfeel" never really jumped out at me -- granted the beers I have had from them were 10%+, oat and/or lactose heavy which does definitely impact that, I'll have to stop by there and grab some to refresh my brain on the mouthfeel.

Now Equilibrium on the other hand - I think I may have preferred the mouthfeel on those (mc2 and a dHop) against the Haze and Dopple I have had, but Dopple was just super well rounded (and I love mosaic). Granted I much prefer Haze and Dopple overall against the handful of EQ beers I have had in terms of flavor, aroma, and hop saturation.

Last couple of NEIPA I've done with Juice (1318) have been flaked oat heavy with a 78calcium, 147 sulfate, and 98 chloride, 5.3pH and I have enjoyed the mouthfeel on them, more than similar grists with 150:75 chloride to sulfate and 100:100 that I have brewed. Going to carry this over to a non-flaked grain bill with 2row, white wheat, carapils, and a touch of c10 and aim for 5.25pH. I'll ferment at 63 for 4 days and step it it to 66, 68, 69, cold crash.

 

[couchsending]

On core beers it seems to me TH has less aroma (because S-04 subdues them?) is thinner than the average NEIPA, with less haze (at least the milky kind of haze) because of grist and finings(?), but has pillowy mouthfeel because of water and carb, and bright, rounded saturated hop flavor.

After using So4 a bunch now I do really believe that it tends to mute hops in some way more than other yeasts. Which is somewhat weird as I know that a lot of breweries use this yeast especially for IPAs. I wonder if it’s the reason the Street beers and a lot of Trillium beers for that matter don’t use any of the sexy hops Hot Side. They used to use 007 yeast, not sure now, and I remeber reading that they did a bunch of test batches and decided to just use Columbus hotside and dry hop with the features varietals. I assume it’s because the yeast was just masking the identity of the hotside additions than when using a huge DH the more expensive varietals were worthless to use?

I know we’re told S04 and 007 are the same yeast but sometimes I wonder, maybe have to do a split batch experiment and see if there are differences. I’ve always read S04 needs to be kept really low in order to prevent the the tart bready like quality but I know of a somewhat local brewery here that uses 007 at 66 and their beers are really bright and express hops really well, not bready or muted in the least bit.

 

[plazola86]

I've been reading through this thread for a couple weeks now. So is everybody pretty much on the same page and thinking they mix yeast and ferment everything all together? Or can they be fermenting in different fermentors each with a different yeast and blending the finished beer at the end?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I've been reading through this thread for a couple weeks now. So is everybody pretty much on the same page and thinking they mix yeast and ferment everything all together? Or can they be fermenting in different fermentors each with a different yeast and blending the finished beer at the end?

I think that's one of the big open questions right now. We've been guessing but it doesn't seem like we can be sure we have a definitive answer. Personally I am still interested in trying both approaches (co-pitch vs. blend) to try to replicate that TH character.

 

[chieftain]

Would the lower temp impact esters thrown by 1318? I normally do 64 and up, though I suppose 63 will keep it free of clove right?

May change my brew day to do a 5.5 gallon batch instead of a 3.5 batch and pitch imperial juice and 2grams of t-58.

I've got a batch carbing up that was fermented at 63 for 4 days (mix of 1318 and S-04), then added 2g or so of T-58 and ramped temp to 70 for a day to finish fermentation. Hoping to avoid the tartness from previous attempt with S-04. Should have an answer in a week.

 

[plazola86]

I think that's one of the big open questions right now. We've been guessing but it doesn't seem like we can be sure we have a definitive answer. Personally I am still interested in trying both approaches (co-pitch vs. blend) to try to replicate that TH character.

The thing that gets me thinking is the carbonation level and mouthfeel that everybody talks about. If you ferment in different fermentors for each yeast you could control the temp and get the flavors you want from each one but you could also over carb and under carb each and create the perfect level in the finished blend? I don't know just thinking out loud, I've only had Treehouse once when i was in Boston, but I also had 4 different Hill Farmstead beers and all 4 blew my mind with their mouthfeel. Wish i could get my hands on more from either of them!

 

[chrisisnapping]

Or can they be fermenting in different fermentors each with a different yeast and blending the finished beer at the end?

Tree House's facility is quite large, with quite the cellar, however I don't know if they would sacrifice that much of a cellar to be blending their core beers - maybe Julius and AE, but I can't see Haze, Green, Julius, and AE all being blended.

Just based on their weekly production (1k bbls) and canning -- it's common for them to have 4-8 cans available on a given day, with the canning of 4 beers a week - not counting what they put on draft or release draft only. So even if we're looking at blending core Julius, Green, Alter, Haze - that would tie up 8 fermenters (10 if we think sap is also blended) for at least 1 week as they tend to release all 4 of these beers over 2 weeks (EG:Today they have Julius, Dopple, Green).

Then you look at their other beers that see just about a monthly, if not more frequently, release in 2018. Catharsis, TWSS, Dopple, Sap, SSSAAAPPP, Old Man, Eureka, Trail Magic, Curiosity, VG/VH. Then whatever they have aging.

Given the nature of dopple, VH, and VG - if AE, Haze, Green are blended, that's 6 more, then there is doubleganger as well.

 

[plazola86]

Tree House's facility is quite large, with quite the cellar, however I don't know if they would sacrifice that much of a cellar to be blending their core beers - maybe Julius and AE, but I can't see Haze, Green, Julius, and AE all being blended.

Yeah it doesn't make since logistically but you have so much more control in blending the finished beer vs blending yeast prior to fermentation. Who knows maybe they have everything down to a science or there house yeast really is something special.

 

[chrisisnapping]

I've got a batch carbing up that was fermented at 63 for 4 days (mix of 1318 and S-04), then added 2g or so of T-58 and ramped temp to 70 for a day to finish fermentation. Hoping to avoid the tartness from previous attempt with S-04. Should have an answer in a week.

I did toy with the idea of a staggered pitch, but from my experience Juice (1318) tore through my wort super quickly - even fermenting on the low end, so I worried that after a few days - if the T-58 would have anything left to make a noticeable impact on the beer - or if the beer would just finish too low.