Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Whoa, yeah, never seen an explicit mention of biotransformation hops on the TH on tap page before. Nice find!

ok, thought so. That pretty much admits that they dry hop their 'core' beers during active fermentation, right? Trillium guy (JC) is also a big proponent of 'biotransformation'. So that settles the issue for me!

 

[stonebrewer]

So after my glowing review of Julius above, I opened a Sap today...no hop aroma or flavor to speak of...so disappointed!

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'd asked earlier in this thread for people to comment on their final ph as I believe it's important to balance sweetness from the malt/yeast and acidity levels of final ph in order to achieve more of a juice-like character and big mouthfeel. I know there's clearly more to it than that, but I think this too is an important component. I've been playing with adding some different acids to final beer including citric and have found it to help bring a lot of the juicy-like qualities to the forefront, including improving the mouthfeel. I've been targeting between 4.8 and 5.2. It's super easy to do, so I encourage folks to give it a try with some samples. I was surprised by the quick impact and overall difference it can make to the body and hop flavor.

shouldn't your final pH be around there or below that anyway? Are you purposefully creating a basic beer and then adding citric acid to lower the final pH?

 

[TheHairyHop]

So after my glowing review of Julius above, I opened a Sap today...no hop aroma or flavor to speak of...so disappointed!

dude, it's kind of annoying. I don't know if I can convince myself to bother standing in line again, considering I could go hang out in Maine for the day while I'm visiting the area. I'm also kind of laughing at that incredibly elaborate description of Bright. I'm pretty sure most people in this thread are creating better beers than Bright right now.

 

[leesmith]

Had my first pour of the mosaic beer in where I used whirlfloc in the boil. Despite a 25% oat malt | 10% flaked wheat contribution beer is notably less hazy than usual. There is definitely haze there, but no murky/milky quality. Beer definitely tastes cleaner and brighter, like it seems more vivid, but does feel a bit thinner and looks a tad darker than it should — I assume because some of the particles that might normally reflect light aren't there. Oddly it seems to drink softer. So, some definite upsides and some downsides, overall though really good and on balance I mostly want what whirlfloc is doing here. (note: per @treehousenate — recommends kettle finings).

For reference used a half tab for a 3.5 gallon batch. Maybe a quarter tab?

I use .6 grams per 2.5 gallon batch. Figured out the math a while back...frankly don’t remember but I think BSG website had some dosage amounts. I think they give a range for the dosage.
I believe .24 grams per gallon is what I figured on.
I just break off or crush the tab a little and weight it out. I err on the side of more than less and if I’m close I go with it.

 

[TheHairyHop]

ok, thought so. That pretty much admits that they dry hop their 'core' beers during active fermentation, right? Trillium guy (JC) is also a big proponent of 'biotransformation'. So that settles the issue for me!

the thing about biotransformation is that it's A) a buzz word at the moment and B) not necessarily biotransformation

for instance, if you cook something and add salt, you end up tasting more than salt. The salinity "brings out" other flavors. These yeast could be adding esters and phenols to the beer that amp up the already existing hop flavors, rather than actually changing them. I don't mean to argue over semantics or anything, but it's sometimes a good thing to look at the situation from all angles

 

[melville]

Every time I prepare to order for the next beers this runs through my mind:

No flaked anything
No wheat
*Most* IPAs have no oats
so it follows... some do.
Oat Malt or Golden Naked Oats?
Never used GNO.
Past few beers have tried oat malt and/or wheat , don't find any notable difference relative to using carafoam.



The other thing that itches my brain — what method/technical/ingredient change brought about the head retention highlighted on Twitter.

 

[SanPancho]

GNO is like granola or graham cracker a bit. Sweet and rich. When i open the bag i immediately get granola. I dont use it anymore in neipa. Cant get the flavor to play nice. Kind of a buttery thing that’s distracting. YMMV.


No flakes either. But i am using alot of carafoam, hot breaking to a simmer, and getting big body. Also gonna add a bunch of malted oats to see what i get for glycerols. Last time i went too far, it was really thick, oddly thick. But flavor was great so just gotta dial it back i guess.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

These yeast could be adding esters and phenols to the beer that amp up the already existing hop flavors, rather than actually changing them.

True, but when you actually measure the putative precursors they go down as fermentation progresses, whereas the putative products of biotransformation increase, see the fourth page of https://www.researchgate.net/public...rmentation_under_Various_Hop-Addition_Timings

 

[melville]

But i am using alot of carafoam, hot breaking to a simmer, and getting big body.

Mind explaining "hot breaking to a simmer" for me.

 

[MaCheFai]

shouldn't your final pH be around there or below that anyway? Are you purposefully creating a basic beer and then adding citric acid to lower the final pH?

I’m attempting to get close to a clone then altering ph after. Depending on yeast, it tends to push things up or down based on variety. I started trying to hone this in based on recommendations from local breweries. I’ve found .1 or .2 makes a huge difference.

 

[melville]

GNO is like granola or graham cracker a bit. Sweet and rich. When i open the bag i immediately get granola. I dont use it anymore in neipa. Cant get the flavor to play nice. Kind of a buttery thing that’s distracting. YMMV.

I hear this a lot about GNO, though I've also heard that those flavors don't translate into the final beer but that maybe the creamy/silkyness does. They are also like a crystal malt, I'm wondering how much might be too much in that regard. I'm around 5% now with C20 — would 5% GNO in addition be too sweet or is it sweet in the same way a lot of base malts are described to be sweet?

GNO also described as having head improvement properties. Not true of flaked/malted oats.

Continuing to think out loud. Huge differences in appearance early Tree House. Much less haze, a slight haze really, and darker in tone. They had played with wheat and oats in early Curiosity beers and some beers list dextrin malt vs carafoam. In 2015 it seems things really started to change appearance wise, lighter, glowing colors and more haze (related to some degree). So it seems they ditched or reduced some darker color malt in their grists, and substantially increased the haze, all while claiming what makes each beer special is the formulation of the individual grists without relying on oats or wheat (seemingly) and all while keeping SRM on the pale beers quite light, not easy to do with a lot of specialty grains.

2-row, Carafoam, crystal, possibly vienna (spotted at the brewery) are all fair game and sometimes oats (but not flaked, so what form?)
Munich is a no. Golden promise is a no. Wheat is no. Flaked anything is a no.

Are they still using rahr? Do they use pilsner in any pale beers?

etc.

 

[stonebrewer]

I used GNO is a Surly Abrasive clone I came up with, and I think it is one of my better IPA formulations.

When in the area, I think I will skip TH until they get things back to normal...Trillium is consistent, easier to get to, no lines to speak of, and can get as much beer as I can (afford, drink, pack for a plane, etc.).

When I switched to GNO from flaked oats in the Abrasive clone, I found the head retention to be much better and I think it also improved the mouthfeel...YMMV.

 

[SanPancho]

Hadnt really considered the head retention or body from GNO as i have alot of other areas providing body. For me it just came off too sweet. Our brown lager with GNO is freaking delicious, but whenever i use it in paler beers the flavor sticks out too much. YMMV.

One thing i think that is illustrative- when ever i open the cabinet where the grains are stored, GNO is the one you smell.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

the thing about biotransformation is that it's A) a buzz word at the moment and B) not necessarily biotransformation

for instance, if you cook something and add salt, you end up tasting more than salt. The salinity "brings out" other flavors. These yeast could be adding esters and phenols to the beer that amp up the already existing hop flavors, rather than actually changing them. I don't mean to argue over semantics or anything, but it's sometimes a good thing to look at the situation from all angles

Yes to all of this! However, it appears both TH and Trillium dry hop during fermentation and they make great beers, biotransconfiguration be damned! So I will do this to and see if it improves my beers.

 

[SanPancho]

Mind explaining "hot breaking to a simmer" for me.

Just what it says, hot break and then immediately down to a soft simmer for the remaining time. Happy accident with a 40% rye beer was like drinking a milkshake. I can only guess that beta glucans were not denatured as much as normally happens. No effect on flavor, so i tried it again. Rye, wheat, oats are all candidates.

Beers don’t stick around very long so no idea if there are stabilty impacts later on, oxidation, etc.

The body impact was so crazy it might be off putting to some, which is why ive been trying to dial it in better to a more moderate level. Not enough hours in the day.....

 

[melville]

Just what it says, hot break and then immediately down to a soft simmer for the remaining time. Happy accident with a 40% rye beer was like drinking a milkshake. I can only guess that beta glucans were not denatured as much as normally happens. No effect on flavor, so i tried it again. Rye, wheat, oats are all candidates.

Beers don’t stick around very long so no idea if there are stabilty impacts later on, oxidation, etc.

The body impact was so crazy it might be off putting to some, which is why ive been trying to dial it in better to a more moderate level. Not enough hours in the day.....

Interesting. I assume that would require tinkering with your boil off rate.

 

[melville]

When in the area, I think I will skip TH until they get things back to normal...Trillium is consistent, easier to get to, no lines to speak of, and can get as much beer as I can (afford, drink, pack for a plane, etc.).

I definitely prefer the convenience of Trillium vs Tree House, but also greatly prefer Tree House's offerings.

 

[SanPancho]

it does, yes. but i never do big boil off anyways, always trying to keep thermal stress down. so always been one to let the break take place and then bring the heat down. the nano sees less than 10% boiloff, and the 15bbl brewhouse sees about that range too so i try to keep things in line at home for scale-ability.

i guess i assumed all the denaturing happened up front, during the break. but if im guessing correctly, that isnt the case at all. which actually makes more sense. bio processes are always in ranges and gradients, not simply on/off or black/white.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Hadnt really considered the head retention or body from GNO as i have alot of other areas providing body. For me it just came off too sweet. Our brown lager with GNO is freaking delicious, but whenever i use it in paler beers the flavor sticks out too much. YMMV.

One thing i think that is illustrative- when ever i open the cabinet where the grains are stored, GNO is the one you smell.

GNO always smell rancid and off putting to me at the LHBSs. I've never gotten anything like graham cracker or pleasant sweetness from the odor, so I never bothered with a purchase. I guess that it may make sense, considering that they have a higher percentage of fat than barley. I haven't had the same experience with malted or flaked versions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[couchsending]

Yes to all of this! However, it appears both TH and Trillium dry hop during fermentation and they make great beers, biotransconfiguration be damned! So I will do this to and see if it improves my beers.

How do you know this for sure? I think the only thing I’ve seen is JC recommending adding dry hops to a keg and transferring with a few points left to go to Spund. To be this was more to eliminate O2 ingress as this is the easiest way for homebrewers to add hops without max O2 pickup and naturally carbonate at the same time.

Has anyone seen or read any statement by Nate on this process? I’m still not fully sold on “biotransformation” and it’s effects. I’ve tested it in small split batches in 3g carboys where I did a different dry hopping regime for each one but I haven’t done it in my conicals yet where I have a much better control over O2 pickup. I was planning a double brew day this past weekend where’s id brew the exact same beer twice and only alter one variable to see its effects. This one was going to be dry hopping methods. However the Grainfather died and was only able to get one brew off, and barely. I added an ounce of Lupulin powder to the conical before adding yeast which I’ve never done before.

Last double brew was two totally different water profiles in the same beer. It’s really cool to try them side by side to see the differences. I also added a 15 minute Step at 133 for these last batchs and the head retention is nuts so far, especially for under carbed beer. Steps were 15 @ 133, 45 @ 152, 20 @ 161, 10 @ 168.

I’m not a believer in flaked oats affecting head retention, at least in smaller amounts.

Nate has said there are no flaked adjuncts in core beers, and no wheat. Malted oats is an option as is Rye. Made a beer with 15% Rye recently that had a crazy full mouthfeel.

 

[duelerx]

Every time I prepare to order for the next beers this runs through my mind:

No flaked anything
No wheat
*Most* IPAs have no oats
so it follows... some do.
Oat Malt or Golden Naked Oats?
Never used GNO.
Past few beers have tried oat malt and/or wheat , don't find any notable difference relative to using carafoam.



The other thing that itches my brain — what method/technical/ingredient change brought about the head retention highlighted on Twitter.

Melville what current grain bill do you have in mind for your next beer?, I had success with GNO and love the silky mouthfeel it brings but pretty curious trying with oat malt.

 

[SanPancho]

GNO always smell rancid and off putting to me at the LHBSs. I've never gotten anything like graham cracker or pleasant sweetness from the odor, so I never bothered with a purchase. I guess that it may make sense, considering that they have a higher percentage of fat than barley. I haven't had the same experience with malted or flaked versions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

sounds like you should avoid specialties from that shop then. ive got a half empty sack i brought home last summer, still smells like nutty rich granola every time you open the cabinet. cabinet is dark, cool, and dry.

oats do have fat, but GNO is also a crystal malt, so id assume it has different storage properties than regular oats. but thats just an assumption.

 

[TheHairyHop]

sounds like you should avoid specialties from that shop then. ive got a half empty sack i brought home last summer, still smells like nutty rich granola every time you open the cabinet. cabinet is dark, cool, and dry.

oats do have fat, but GNO is also a crystal malt, so id assume it has different storage properties than regular oats. but thats just an assumption.

the strange thing is that it's a decent store in CO that also brews for their own pub, so storage shouldn't be much of an issue due to natural conditions and high turnover. Regardless, it's lead me to avoid that product. Oh well

on a similar note, I thought that barley was considered to be high in beta glucans. If that is true, I don't know if other cereals would make much of a difference.

 

[SanPancho]

well i think you may be on to something with the higher fat content. fats do go rancid, but its also malted and crystalized so that seems odd to me that the cooking doesnt preserve it better. in any case, a fresh sack should smell nutty, granola, etc. farmhouse had decent quality GNO if you ever order from them. just gets expensive on the shipping due to weight.

i dont believe barley is "high" in beta glucans. thats a relative term obviously, so we are talking about it compared to rye, wheat, oats, etc. the stuff that really gums up a mash. never had a gummy mash from all barley. but the rest of those guys, definitely. i believe they all have some glucans, but barley has the least. and rye has a few other compounds that are similar in properties to glucans, although its been too long to remember the details.

 

[SanPancho]

Made a beer with 15% Rye recently that had a crazy full mouthfeel.

a big portion of rye malt might be a good experiement with neipa. its got decent color, ~3L i think, good diastatic power, and can really help with body, as you saw with 15%. that happy accident i noted above was CRAZY thick. and like 30-40% rye. hot break to simmer.

the spicy notes probably arent kosher for style of neipa, but i swear sometimes i use tons of rye and get little to no rye "flavor" to speak of so i think its worth a shot.

 

[couchsending]

There’s a great Session Podcast with Julian from Beachwood BBQ and he talks about the whole Rye=Spice thing being total BS and he made a 100% Rye beer just to prove it/screw with people. Said it was the weirdest//thickest beer he’s ever had. Like you could visually see the carbonation moving slower through the beer. Those comments were what inspired the beer I made.

 

[SanPancho]

YES. EXACTLY. even at 30 or 40% i made it was crazy thick. crazy looking bubble action too. it didnt seem to affect the flavors at all, but it was strange to drink. i could definitely see some people not liking it or being weirded out by it. but overall, it was a good beer.

as for the spice, i think its definitely there. but not nearly as prominent as you would think from the way its talked about. to me, it really takes the addition of crystal rye to really bring that sort of flavor out front.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Whoa, yeah, never seen an explicit mention of biotransformation hops on the TH on tap page before. Nice find!

Okay, now that I se this, I think my money is on Mosaic for the "biotransformation addition" as their signature note. Maybe with some Citra, but maybe not. Seems like it would a fairly complimentary addition.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've been doing a malt bill of 80% 2 row to 20% something else. Flaked oats sometimes produce a thick beer, but it seems to "age out" over 10 or so days from tapping. It isn't repeatable, so I had thought it was the cashmere. Perhaps not coincidentally, the last time it happened, it was cold as hell outside. So, my boil was weak. I've also done malted spelt, malted oats, flaked wheat, raw wheat, raw spelt, but not any carafoam or dextrin malt. Maybe I'll try rye and carafoam for the next two.

 

[couchsending]

Missed the whole post about the “biotransformation” description on untapped... whoops my bad

I did a recent experiment with a wine yeast that is one of the only wine yeasts that’s POF- and ferments Maltotriose (supposedly). It was an all Mosaic beer and it was pretty rad. Flavors and Aromas I’ve never gotten from Mosaic before. Brought it to the local LHBS cause one of the guys has been messing with wine strains as well. They were pretty blown away by the aromas and flavor profile as well. Definitely going to keep playing with this yeast. It was just a small 2.5 gallon batch just to see what would happen.

Supposedly this yeast ferments Maltotriose but fermentation stopped at 1.020 both times I’ve used it regardless of mash temps. I decided to add a little Alpha Amalyse enzyme when I transferred it to a keg with some bagged Mosaic to see if I could get the gravity down a little and naturally carbonate it at the same time. It worked, probably too well. After 4 or 5 days PSI was waaaaay to high. Haven’t gotten around to degassing it to see what FG finishes at.

 

[melville]

Melville what current grain bill do you have in mind for your next beer?, I had success with GNO and love the silky mouthfeel it brings but pretty curious trying with oat malt.

Probably:
20% Carafoam
5% Vienna
5% C10
10-20% "X"
50-60% Rahr 2-Row or Golden Promise

 

[melville]

There’s a great Session Podcast with Julian from Beachwood BBQ and he talks about the whole Rye=Spice thing being total BS and he made a 100% Rye beer just to prove it/screw with people. Said it was the weirdest//thickest beer he’s ever had. Like you could visually see the carbonation moving slower through the beer. Those comments were what inspired the beer I made.

The NEIPAs I've made with rye have been really nice and really hazy. No real spice character once carbed and conditioned. Of course this triggers which one: rye malt vs flaked rye (I used both)

 

[SanPancho]

I did a recent experiment with a wine yeast that is one of the only wine yeasts that’s POF- and ferments Maltotriose (supposedly).

Care to share?

 

[TheHairyHop]

There's this thing I've been hearing local brewers call "hop creep". They're saying that some hops contain compounds that will break complex carbohydrates, resulting in increased fermentation. One brewer cited mosaic as a prime culprit. I thought it was interesting, slightly unfeasible sounding, but also possible. Some of my late dry hopped IPAs have gotten wayyy overcarbed, and I was never able to figure out why

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Call it what you like, but the idea that dry hopping leads to additional fermentation is not a new one, it was being studied 125 years ago : http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/why-dry-hop.html

 

[SanPancho]

Was always told it was the added oxygen that comes in with the hops that kicks things back up into gear, but that doesn’t make much sense if theres no yeast growth taking place, or needed. Never understood it. If its actually hop derived i guess that makes more sense to me. Dry hopping cool avoided the issue for us. For ales at least.

 

[couchsending]

I don’t think I’ve seen “Hop creep” mentioned until the last two weeks and now I see it everywhere. It’s sugars and enzymes in the hops according to Vinnie.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Was always told it was the added oxygen that comes in with the hops that kicks things back up into gear, but that doesn’t make much sense if theres no yeast growth taking place, or needed. Never understood it. If its actually hop derived i guess that makes more sense to me. Dry hopping cool avoided the issue for us. For ales at least.

yea, I was also told that it's oxygen as well, but that doesn't really hold water when you think of it. The yeast either ran out of food or didn't (as long as your pitch was good). Adding oxygen doesn't also add more food

 

[JohnConnor]

Every time I prepare to order for the next beers this runs through my mind:

No flaked anything
No wheat
*Most* IPAs have no oats
so it follows... some do.
Oat Malt or Golden Naked Oats?
Never used GNO.
Past few beers have tried oat malt and/or wheat , don't find any notable difference relative to using carafoam.



The other thing that itches my brain — what method/technical/ingredient change brought about the head retention highlighted on Twitter.

I was running through YCH.com looking through their CO2 extract products which Nate said they use. They call about increased AA utilization, excellent stability of alpha and beta acids, and increase shelf stability. That could be part of it. Also, I've been ready how trub in the kettle/fermenter can be foam negative. Using this would eliminate that. They also have stuff like Tetra that all supposed to be very foam positive. What are the chances he's using some of that?