milldoggy
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I use clarity ferm and whirlfloc. I do not get the murky haze everyone gets, but don't care. Still taste amazing. Like to keep my gluten intake down. I really should try without them both though
Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?
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Sounds great! How much Na did you use in your water? What was your sulfate and chloride ppm?
echoALEia
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Just curious, were IOY A38 (juice) and Lallemand’s Nottingham ever sequenced/profiled by the OP? I went back and couldn’t find anything (its very possible I missed it - I read through this beast of a thread over a month ago).
I made a starter of Juice and it reminded me exactly of Nottingham. I know everyone says Juice is 1318, but the starter didn’t remind me of that as much, way more of notty, especially the flavor of the finished beer.
I made a starter of Juice and it reminded me exactly of Nottingham. I know everyone says Juice is 1318, but the starter didn’t remind me of that as much, way more of notty, especially the flavor of the finished beer.
thehaze
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How would you describe the flavour of IOY A38 (juice) from the starter?
I know I like 1318 a lot and not only in NEIPAs, but also IPAs, session beers, bitters and all kinds of English styled beers.
I know I like 1318 a lot and not only in NEIPAs, but also IPAs, session beers, bitters and all kinds of English styled beers.
echoALEia
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I can only go off of the aroma of the starter because I didn’t taste it, just the final beer I used it in, but the best way to describe the aroma of the starter I made from Juice and the starters I’ve made from Notty in the past is like a light to medium toasted rosemary bread. To me, it is a very distinct and pleasing perfume aroma.
This transferred into the flavor of the latest NEIPA I made with it and other beers I’ve made with Notty. The NEIPA was very reminiscent of TH and monkish.
This transferred into the flavor of the latest NEIPA I made with it and other beers I’ve made with Notty. The NEIPA was very reminiscent of TH and monkish.
jakturner
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Has anyone tried fermenting and serving from the same keg? I did that with my latest beer and I’m very pleased with the results. It took about 2 weeks of cold conditioning to drop the dry hop burn but it’s great now. It was crazy easy with no transferring, I do use the clear beer draught system with a screen over the pick up, so it may not work as well with with a trimmed dip tube that pulls from the bottom of the keg.
Considering doing that with my next one. Also spunding. Seems like the dummy proof way to completely mitigate any oxygen issues.
couchsending
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I've never fermented and served in the same keg and frankly not sure I would want to. That's a lot of yeast sitting around for a long time. I have transferred to a keg with about 1 plato left with dry hops bagged in the keg and sounded at the same time. Done it three times I think. I've only ever bagged the hops, never done them lose with a dip tube screen. I have never had good aroma out of those sounded kegs with the DH addition in them. Aroma has been better adding them lose to Conical with a point or two left and adding some top pressure to the FV once fermentation has completed, letting them sit for another 2 days then dropping the temp 7-10* per day while trying to maintain head pressure. Once 40* is reached everything has usually crashed to the bottom and I can transfer without clogging anything.
ThePaleAleIndian
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This is something I would love to try as well. Seems like the best way to avoid oxidation. Seal to carbonate at the end of primary and you've probably reduced the grain-to-glass time as well. At that point your only O2 ingress is whatever is in your CO2 tank as an impurity when you apply serving pressure. I did the trimmed dip tube and 300 micron stainless mesh filter on my last batch as I naturally carbed. It worked pretty well, so I think it's still a viable option.
The only drawback I see is that your batch size would be less than 5 gallons, although that's a bigger deal to some than others.
jakturner
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I usually spund my beers but recently stopped due to the ester profile being muted (usually use London ale III) I would imagine WB-06 would do the same considering Hefe yeast like open fermentation. Now I use a blow off tube into a 3/4 full 750ml bottle and cap fermentation 2-3 days after first dry hop is added usually day 5-6 (once bubbling slows down) The beer is usually 3/4 the way carbed using this method.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Depending on how long the keg sticks around this may or may not be an issue. I know John Palmer talked about extended cold storage for his lagers on the primary yeast cake in his book and mentioned winning competitions with beers he did that with.
jakturner
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I’m only making 3.5 gallon batches so the beer is only on tap maybe 4 weeks and drawing the beer from the top with a floating dip tube so yeast was actually not much of a problem. I also make sure not to transfer any hops from the kettle to reduce plant material. It’s the first time I’ve done it so I need to test it out a little more, but this batch was a success! 3.5 weeks on tap and still going strong
My last batch I just dumped straight from the spigot to the bottom of an open keg. The beer was 6 pts from FG. I added an oz of Citra Cryo hops in a bag tied to the lid. Also, I did not put a spunding valve on. I will leave out in the basement for a week and the put it in the keezer for a couple days before I tap it. I am kinda flying by the seat of my pants on this one.
couchsending
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How warm’s the basement?
The Idaho 7 beer is drinking awesomely right now. It's tasting sweet from all of the candied fruit flavors that I'm getting. Not much of the black tea that the hop is supposed to give. I guess that there's a savory note in there if I search for it. Not creamy at all, unfortunately, but still a great IPA
I'm not sure if anyone else has some anecdotes, but I think this is the last time that I keg condition with S-04. It gets the overly crisp, brightness to it that I think it the "tartness" people talk about. It's not terrible, but it's not a profile that I want
couchsending
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Why were you keg conditioning with S04 in the first place?
It's what I had on had due to it being part of the suspected blend
I believe this is what I experienced when I tried the yeast trio. It turned tart over a couple of weeks and I had to dump it. I noted a fair amount of yeast in the bottom of the serving keg when I emptied it, indicating the yeast was still in suspension when I transferred from the carboy.
I think that I'll try 1318 and Conan as a blend for my second beer in the "avoiding S-04 from now on" phase. I know that some people have complained about Conan's ability to finish predictably, so perhaps blending it with a more reliable fermenter will smooth out the bump 
Off topic but it was debates some earlier about Kimmich blanding brights of heady.
Just found his article
Notably, this entry:
Although he now makes fifteen barrels (465 gallons) of Heady Topper at a time, blending four of those into a 60-barrel tank for canning and distribution, he’s still experimenting.
“I promised myself that from Day One. The recipe is not set in stone,” he says. Most often, his trials are one-tank experiments, because he doesn’t want Heady Topper to taste dramatically different from one release to the next. “We get to try [each one] by itself,” he says. “We’ve blended many great discoveries into Heady.”
Full read( I recommend it if you are interested in hop oils)
https://beerandbrewing.com/gather-no-moss--inside-the-alchemists-heady-topper
Also, a trillium recipe from J.C. is on there at the bottom of the page via link
https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/homebrew-recipe-trilliums-dialed-in-ipa-with-wine-grape-must/
Just found his article
Notably, this entry:
Although he now makes fifteen barrels (465 gallons) of Heady Topper at a time, blending four of those into a 60-barrel tank for canning and distribution, he’s still experimenting.
“I promised myself that from Day One. The recipe is not set in stone,” he says. Most often, his trials are one-tank experiments, because he doesn’t want Heady Topper to taste dramatically different from one release to the next. “We get to try [each one] by itself,” he says. “We’ve blended many great discoveries into Heady.”
Full read( I recommend it if you are interested in hop oils)
https://beerandbrewing.com/gather-no-moss--inside-the-alchemists-heady-topper
Also, a trillium recipe from J.C. is on there at the bottom of the page via link
https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/homebrew-recipe-trilliums-dialed-in-ipa-with-wine-grape-must/
Basically, he runs any recipe alterations/experiments on 1-2 batches/tanks of the now 6(was 4) tanks that combine into heady.
Now this doesn't discredit the thought that he is running different fermentation profiles, etc. Nor does it enforce it..
Now this doesn't discredit the thought that he is running different fermentation profiles, etc. Nor does it enforce it..
Also, I recently met an amazing preson that brought me these today just because.
First time for all of them for me. I'm giddy like a F'in school girl.
The tree house are 3 and 13 days old!
(Sorry for the spam)
I've been following this thread and the whole "yeast blending" discussion for a while now. I noticed that The Yeast Bay recently released a new sacch blend named "Hazy Daze" which is: "...a proprietary blend of three Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains, all of which offer unique contributions to the production of crisp, hop forward beers. Expect this blend to throw bountiful amounts of peach, apricot, nectarine and grapefruit citrus esters, exhibit medium to low flocculation and reliably achieve good attenuation to produce beers with a dry and crisp character."
I can't help but wonder if this strain is meant to mimic the Treehouse house yeast. I can't think of which other three sacch strains would be worth blending unless it's something like 1318 + Conan + Trois.
I can't help but wonder if this strain is meant to mimic the Treehouse house yeast. I can't think of which other three sacch strains would be worth blending unless it's something like 1318 + Conan + Trois.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Oh I can - it's amazing how internet discussions end up concentrating on just a very small fraction of the yeast biodiversity out there. Even some of the White Labs and Wyeast strains see virtually no discussion - just try looking for information on WLP030 for instance, which I've been using lately. But consider that almost any northern English strain would be worth trying in a NEIPA - and there are hundreds of them out there between the breweries and the NCYC. I suspect something like the super-fruity Brewlab F40, which allegedly originated in Newcastle Brown Ale, would be great in a NEIPA - but very few US homebrewers are even aware it exists. Mangrove Jacks M15 Empire may be a close relative of F40 - but again I've not seen anyone try it in a NEIPA. Could be terrible, but noone even thinks to try it.
Everyone is obssessed with Conan and 1318, or trying (as in this thread) to clone specific beers, so they go down the same narrow paths when there's a whole world of yeast out there to explore....
couchsending
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Totally
None of the really great beers made commercially in this style use 1318. I swear Kimmich mentioned it once so everyone thought it was HF’s yeast (which I don’t think it is at all) and Tired Hands “supposedly” uses it. So now everyone thinks it necessary for the style.
I am about to tap a beer made with the TYB Hazy Daze blend.. think it’s going to be awesome. If I was to guess I would say 100% sure Conan + maybe 1469 and not sure what else. Maybe in marketing it’s meant to resemble a TH blend but it definitely has zero Belgian or Diastaticus yeast in it for sure (TYB calls out Diastaticus). I would think it’s a blend of three English yeasts. Recommended pitching rate is crazy low, and ferm temp rather high. Beer I made with it has tons of awesome esters but it’s by no means a Tree House beer.
I kind of don't relate to what you're talking about. I've used a bunch of yeast strains. 1318 has won out on performance, not hype
That's one of the strains I haven't tried. I chuckled a bit at the description on the White Labs website. They specifically mention NEIPAs! I've enjoyed other strains, 1968, 1275, 023, etc, but none have combined "softness" with a light fruit and almost vanilla profile that 1318 does. White Labs 095 is supposed to be the same (correct?), and I think that it largely is. I swear that I got an almost chocolate flavor from it, however
ThePaleAleIndian
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I've used 1318, 1968 and our trio here for NEIPAs. I've used 1275 and 005 for other beers on the pale ale spectrum, not NEIPAs though. I have been very impressed with 1318. I feel like 1968 tends to mute hop flavor (not so much hop bitterness IME) and 1275 is quite clean with a weird earthiness to it that I wouldn't want in an NEIPA. 1968 and 005/1187 are strains I want to revisit for NEIPAs.
I feel like the trio does pretty well except for the tartness, although my last one didn't end up that tart. I actually did a very unscientific experiment with my last batch with the trio (the blended small WB-06 and large S-04/T-58 copitch). I poured a pint from the keg and added 55 mg of Calcium Carbonate to it. My intent had been to do it again and measure the beer quantity more precisely and also the pH before and after the CaCO3 addition - but the keg kicked. Oh well. Anyway, anecdotally i can say that the adjustment did change my perception of the beer. I felt it was sweeter up front but also had a slightly more bitter finish. It did cut the tartness. It's something i want to experiment with further because I have a feeling TH might be adjusting finished beer pH.
I feel like the trio does pretty well except for the tartness, although my last one didn't end up that tart. I actually did a very unscientific experiment with my last batch with the trio (the blended small WB-06 and large S-04/T-58 copitch). I poured a pint from the keg and added 55 mg of Calcium Carbonate to it. My intent had been to do it again and measure the beer quantity more precisely and also the pH before and after the CaCO3 addition - but the keg kicked. Oh well. Anyway, anecdotally i can say that the adjustment did change my perception of the beer. I felt it was sweeter up front but also had a slightly more bitter finish. It did cut the tartness. It's something i want to experiment with further because I have a feeling TH might be adjusting finished beer pH.
melville
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As I recall, the claimed credible source for HF=Boddington's was an assistant brewer "Dan" (presumably Dan Suarez)
Left is keg carbonated with 095, right is keg carbonated with S-04. Exact same beer otherwise. I would normally associate the color change with oxidation, but I didn't really do anything different. This leads me to believe it is the yeast. Left is smoother and the hop flavor saturates the palate as you swallow. The S-04 batch is less smooth and more like drinking OJ. I prefer the 095 only.
Edit: I poured them at different times which is why the foam is different. It's interesting to note that the lacing is different between the two
Edit: I poured them at different times which is why the foam is different. It's interesting to note that the lacing is different between the two
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melville
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One problem is TYB isn't always available (for me) and say you loved this — drift would surely be an issue. One thing about Fermentis is it's cheap, easy to get, easy to blend, and easy to reuse (the packet leftovers).
one of the reasons I keg carbed with S-04. An unfinished packet on hand. Stupid easy for storage and use
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
I don't think it's so much "necessary" - but there seem to have been a good number of brewers (eg Scott Janish, Eric Bramwell and Rob Coombs) who for whatever reason have read about 1318 and tried it side-by-side with a commercially-available Conan or Conan/Trois and found that they prefer 1318. There's no kudos or shame in trying 1318 - what matters is that you end up with the best beer possible, for whatever reason.
1318 seems to be maybe a bit more subdued than the Conan family but a bit more complex compared to the one-dimensional PEEAAAAACCCHHH of the Conans, that one-dimensonality seems to be less popular among the kinds of brewer thoughtful enough to do two-way tasteoffs.
WLP095 Burlington is allegedly the White Labs member of the Conan family, but it's a bit more subdued than TYB WLP4000 Vermont. Cloudwater used 095 for v4/5 of their famous DIPA but seem to have settled on 4000 as their main "New England" yeast.
Well it gets more complicated than that, as many northern English yeasts (such as WLP026/37/38) are part of the more primitive saison family rather than the (generally) cleaner UK/US/kolsch family, so many of them are POF+ and make phenolics (they just don't get fermented at 80F so it's less obvious than in a saison). So it's really interesting that Treehouse are using a "clean" yeast and then adding back some phenolics with the Belgian strains, and it's also been suggested that Conan's origins may lie in Yorkshire.
Interesting that you mention 1469 as that's right up the top of "alternative" yeasts I want to try in a NEIPA (although I'm feeling a bit frustrated as I'm still waiting for the new Mosaic harvest to hit the shops before I do so)
I thought that 095 was their version of 1318. If you look at the DNA analysis of 1318 and Conan, they don't seem terribly similar. It would be a pretty big difference, so it's definitely of interest
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Everything I've read has pointed to 095 being a Conan, yours is the first suggestion I've ever seen of it being a 1318 equivalent. The PCRs at the start of this thread suggest WLP4000 is quite similar to 1968 "Fuller's", which rather suggests that 095 and 4000 are the Beer090/099 in the Gallone paper that are closely related to Fuller's/Whitbread B. The numbering would make sense as well, as they would have arrived on the market after the main bulk of sequencing was done for that paper, but would have been of high interest (and we know they did another company's version of WLP001 just out of curiosity). They seem to be aiming London Fog at the 1318 market as they didn't have an exact equivalent.
Would be easy enough to do a PCR though, if someone can bring 095 and a PCR machine together... (as it happens I have 4000 but not 095)
mikeroesoft
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I thought WLP095 was yeast from Magic Hat.
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