Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[couchsending]

Yes to all of this! However, it appears both TH and Trillium dry hop during fermentation and they make great beers, biotransconfiguration be damned! So I will do this to and see if it improves my beers.

How do you know this for sure? I think the only thing I’ve seen is JC recommending adding dry hops to a keg and transferring with a few points left to go to Spund. To be this was more to eliminate O2 ingress as this is the easiest way for homebrewers to add hops without max O2 pickup and naturally carbonate at the same time.

Has anyone seen or read any statement by Nate on this process? I’m still not fully sold on “biotransformation” and it’s effects. I’ve tested it in small split batches in 3g carboys where I did a different dry hopping regime for each one but I haven’t done it in my conicals yet where I have a much better control over O2 pickup. I was planning a double brew day this past weekend where’s id brew the exact same beer twice and only alter one variable to see its effects. This one was going to be dry hopping methods. However the Grainfather died and was only able to get one brew off, and barely. I added an ounce of Lupulin powder to the conical before adding yeast which I’ve never done before.

Last double brew was two totally different water profiles in the same beer. It’s really cool to try them side by side to see the differences. I also added a 15 minute Step at 133 for these last batchs and the head retention is nuts so far, especially for under carbed beer. Steps were 15 @ 133, 45 @ 152, 20 @ 161, 10 @ 168.

I’m not a believer in flaked oats affecting head retention, at least in smaller amounts.

Nate has said there are no flaked adjuncts in core beers, and no wheat. Malted oats is an option as is Rye. Made a beer with 15% Rye recently that had a crazy full mouthfeel.

 

[duelerx]

Every time I prepare to order for the next beers this runs through my mind:

No flaked anything
No wheat
*Most* IPAs have no oats
so it follows... some do.
Oat Malt or Golden Naked Oats?
Never used GNO.
Past few beers have tried oat malt and/or wheat , don't find any notable difference relative to using carafoam.



The other thing that itches my brain — what method/technical/ingredient change brought about the head retention highlighted on Twitter.

Melville what current grain bill do you have in mind for your next beer?, I had success with GNO and love the silky mouthfeel it brings but pretty curious trying with oat malt.

 

[SanPancho]

GNO always smell rancid and off putting to me at the LHBSs. I've never gotten anything like graham cracker or pleasant sweetness from the odor, so I never bothered with a purchase. I guess that it may make sense, considering that they have a higher percentage of fat than barley. I haven't had the same experience with malted or flaked versions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

sounds like you should avoid specialties from that shop then. ive got a half empty sack i brought home last summer, still smells like nutty rich granola every time you open the cabinet. cabinet is dark, cool, and dry.

oats do have fat, but GNO is also a crystal malt, so id assume it has different storage properties than regular oats. but thats just an assumption.

 

[TheHairyHop]

sounds like you should avoid specialties from that shop then. ive got a half empty sack i brought home last summer, still smells like nutty rich granola every time you open the cabinet. cabinet is dark, cool, and dry.

oats do have fat, but GNO is also a crystal malt, so id assume it has different storage properties than regular oats. but thats just an assumption.

the strange thing is that it's a decent store in CO that also brews for their own pub, so storage shouldn't be much of an issue due to natural conditions and high turnover. Regardless, it's lead me to avoid that product. Oh well

on a similar note, I thought that barley was considered to be high in beta glucans. If that is true, I don't know if other cereals would make much of a difference.

 

[SanPancho]

well i think you may be on to something with the higher fat content. fats do go rancid, but its also malted and crystalized so that seems odd to me that the cooking doesnt preserve it better. in any case, a fresh sack should smell nutty, granola, etc. farmhouse had decent quality GNO if you ever order from them. just gets expensive on the shipping due to weight.

i dont believe barley is "high" in beta glucans. thats a relative term obviously, so we are talking about it compared to rye, wheat, oats, etc. the stuff that really gums up a mash. never had a gummy mash from all barley. but the rest of those guys, definitely. i believe they all have some glucans, but barley has the least. and rye has a few other compounds that are similar in properties to glucans, although its been too long to remember the details.

 

[SanPancho]

Made a beer with 15% Rye recently that had a crazy full mouthfeel.

a big portion of rye malt might be a good experiement with neipa. its got decent color, ~3L i think, good diastatic power, and can really help with body, as you saw with 15%. that happy accident i noted above was CRAZY thick. and like 30-40% rye. hot break to simmer.

the spicy notes probably arent kosher for style of neipa, but i swear sometimes i use tons of rye and get little to no rye "flavor" to speak of so i think its worth a shot.

 

[couchsending]

There’s a great Session Podcast with Julian from Beachwood BBQ and he talks about the whole Rye=Spice thing being total BS and he made a 100% Rye beer just to prove it/screw with people. Said it was the weirdest//thickest beer he’s ever had. Like you could visually see the carbonation moving slower through the beer. Those comments were what inspired the beer I made.

 

[SanPancho]

YES. EXACTLY. even at 30 or 40% i made it was crazy thick. crazy looking bubble action too. it didnt seem to affect the flavors at all, but it was strange to drink. i could definitely see some people not liking it or being weirded out by it. but overall, it was a good beer.

as for the spice, i think its definitely there. but not nearly as prominent as you would think from the way its talked about. to me, it really takes the addition of crystal rye to really bring that sort of flavor out front.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Whoa, yeah, never seen an explicit mention of biotransformation hops on the TH on tap page before. Nice find!

Okay, now that I se this, I think my money is on Mosaic for the "biotransformation addition" as their signature note. Maybe with some Citra, but maybe not. Seems like it would a fairly complimentary addition.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've been doing a malt bill of 80% 2 row to 20% something else. Flaked oats sometimes produce a thick beer, but it seems to "age out" over 10 or so days from tapping. It isn't repeatable, so I had thought it was the cashmere. Perhaps not coincidentally, the last time it happened, it was cold as hell outside. So, my boil was weak. I've also done malted spelt, malted oats, flaked wheat, raw wheat, raw spelt, but not any carafoam or dextrin malt. Maybe I'll try rye and carafoam for the next two.

 

[couchsending]

Missed the whole post about the “biotransformation” description on untapped... whoops my bad

I did a recent experiment with a wine yeast that is one of the only wine yeasts that’s POF- and ferments Maltotriose (supposedly). It was an all Mosaic beer and it was pretty rad. Flavors and Aromas I’ve never gotten from Mosaic before. Brought it to the local LHBS cause one of the guys has been messing with wine strains as well. They were pretty blown away by the aromas and flavor profile as well. Definitely going to keep playing with this yeast. It was just a small 2.5 gallon batch just to see what would happen.

Supposedly this yeast ferments Maltotriose but fermentation stopped at 1.020 both times I’ve used it regardless of mash temps. I decided to add a little Alpha Amalyse enzyme when I transferred it to a keg with some bagged Mosaic to see if I could get the gravity down a little and naturally carbonate it at the same time. It worked, probably too well. After 4 or 5 days PSI was waaaaay to high. Haven’t gotten around to degassing it to see what FG finishes at.

 

[melville]

Melville what current grain bill do you have in mind for your next beer?, I had success with GNO and love the silky mouthfeel it brings but pretty curious trying with oat malt.

Probably:
20% Carafoam
5% Vienna
5% C10
10-20% "X"
50-60% Rahr 2-Row or Golden Promise

 

[melville]

There’s a great Session Podcast with Julian from Beachwood BBQ and he talks about the whole Rye=Spice thing being total BS and he made a 100% Rye beer just to prove it/screw with people. Said it was the weirdest//thickest beer he’s ever had. Like you could visually see the carbonation moving slower through the beer. Those comments were what inspired the beer I made.

The NEIPAs I've made with rye have been really nice and really hazy. No real spice character once carbed and conditioned. Of course this triggers which one: rye malt vs flaked rye (I used both)

 

[SanPancho]

I did a recent experiment with a wine yeast that is one of the only wine yeasts that’s POF- and ferments Maltotriose (supposedly).

Care to share?

 

[TheHairyHop]

There's this thing I've been hearing local brewers call "hop creep". They're saying that some hops contain compounds that will break complex carbohydrates, resulting in increased fermentation. One brewer cited mosaic as a prime culprit. I thought it was interesting, slightly unfeasible sounding, but also possible. Some of my late dry hopped IPAs have gotten wayyy overcarbed, and I was never able to figure out why

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Call it what you like, but the idea that dry hopping leads to additional fermentation is not a new one, it was being studied 125 years ago : http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/why-dry-hop.html

 

[SanPancho]

Was always told it was the added oxygen that comes in with the hops that kicks things back up into gear, but that doesn’t make much sense if theres no yeast growth taking place, or needed. Never understood it. If its actually hop derived i guess that makes more sense to me. Dry hopping cool avoided the issue for us. For ales at least.

 

[couchsending]

I don’t think I’ve seen “Hop creep” mentioned until the last two weeks and now I see it everywhere. It’s sugars and enzymes in the hops according to Vinnie.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Was always told it was the added oxygen that comes in with the hops that kicks things back up into gear, but that doesn’t make much sense if theres no yeast growth taking place, or needed. Never understood it. If its actually hop derived i guess that makes more sense to me. Dry hopping cool avoided the issue for us. For ales at least.

yea, I was also told that it's oxygen as well, but that doesn't really hold water when you think of it. The yeast either ran out of food or didn't (as long as your pitch was good). Adding oxygen doesn't also add more food

 

[JohnConnor]

Every time I prepare to order for the next beers this runs through my mind:

No flaked anything
No wheat
*Most* IPAs have no oats
so it follows... some do.
Oat Malt or Golden Naked Oats?
Never used GNO.
Past few beers have tried oat malt and/or wheat , don't find any notable difference relative to using carafoam.



The other thing that itches my brain — what method/technical/ingredient change brought about the head retention highlighted on Twitter.

I was running through YCH.com looking through their CO2 extract products which Nate said they use. They call about increased AA utilization, excellent stability of alpha and beta acids, and increase shelf stability. That could be part of it. Also, I've been ready how trub in the kettle/fermenter can be foam negative. Using this would eliminate that. They also have stuff like Tetra that all supposed to be very foam positive. What are the chances he's using some of that?

 

[melville]

I was running through YCH.com looking through their CO2 extract products which Nate said they use. They call about increased AA utilization, excellent stability of alpha and beta acids, and increase shelf stability. That could be part of it. Also, I've been ready how trub in the kettle/fermenter can be foam negative. Using this would eliminate that. They also have stuff like Tetra that all supposed to be very foam positive. What are the chances he's using some of that?

First thing that came to mind was Tetra. Like it seemed just all of a sudden he started sharing some head-centric photos of beers. That's what made me think magic bullet type solution vs evolution of process. But for all we know though there's just a setting in the preferences for their brew system that just says "more head retention"

 

[TheHairyHop]

Tetra is very foam positive. Either Tonsmeire or Scott Jannish did a rough experiment with a glass of beer and noted that the foam basically turned into a plastic at some point. It would be a natural progression to be using hop extract, be contacted by your supplier about a "new product", and end up trying that out. I've been wanting to play with extract for a while, I just haven't found the time

 

[JohnConnor]

First thing that came to mind was Tetra. Like it seemed just all of a sudden he started sharing some head-centric photos of beers. That's what made me think magic bullet type solution vs evolution of process. But for all we know though there's just a setting in the preferences for their brew system that just says "more head retention"

I'm with you. I've seen those photo's and it makes me want to cry. That's kind of been my focus right now. Mouthfeel and that amazing, rocky head. I can't get close. It's not bad, but it's not good either. One thing I wanted to do was a step mash... 145 and then up to 163. I've been reading German brewing books. They say very foam positive. Who knows. I kind of feel like I'm running down a rabbit hole I won't find an end to.

 

[TheHairyHop]

green less than a year apart. The lighting is different, but I'd say the head is substantially different

 

[melville]

green less than a year apart. The lighting is different, but I'd say the head is substantially different

Yep, that's what I've noticed. Normal NEIPA head vs cartoonish whip cream head.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I might pick up some chinook extract and start playing with it. In NEIPA applications, chinook is delicious

 

[Jwin]

green less than a year apart. The lighting is different, but I'd say the head is substantially different

Could just be using the creamer perlick taps. I have 3. They work as advertised

 

[tld6008]

Would anyone care to comment on the results you have had from Marshall Bishops recipe at
https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/#comment-729
Surely some of you have made this? I ask because I have and thought it was quite good although not exactly what I expected but not have every tried the real thing I have nothing to compare it to other than Braufessors NEIPA recipe (on this site) and a fairly local brew from Parish Brewing in Broussard, LA called Ghost in the Machine.

 

[chrilr]

http://www.stealthisbeer.com/episodes/2017/6/26/episode-115-dan-suarez-suarez-family-brewery

52:00 they talk about getting citrus vs. Fruit from hops and how ph is important

 

[makubex]

http://www.stealthisbeer.com/episodes/2017/6/26/episode-115-dan-suarez-suarez-family-brewery

52:00 they talk about getting citrus vs. Fruit from hops and how ph is important

Wow, that host is annoying. Why bring somebody on your show if you're going to talk over them and keep trying to negate any point they make?

Suarez starts talking about how limiting oxygen is important and the host cuts in with "I don't think that's the problem here." Okay, great, but limiting dissolved oxygen is ridiculously important with these styles, and if that's the advice Dan wants to give, let him give it.

With that out of the way, the note about pH is interesting and worthy of some experimentation. Again, annoying that the host doesn't want to speak to his own advice and has to put Dan on the spot with "what pH would you target?" Also, no indication is given as to whether the stated 5.0-5.2 pH range is at room temp or boil temp.

If someone has a way of splitting off wort into smaller 1-gallon batches, it'd be interesting to see the difference in whirlpool hop character between post-boil worts dosed with citric acid to several different pH levels.