Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[CascadesBrewer]

I have them all in my fridge ready for tasting.

That sounds awesome!

Does #7 sound like Conan (The Alchemist's yeast)? I am not familiar with that yeast myself.

 

[day_trippr]

Conan was my thought with the stone fruit emphasis...

Cheers!

 

[EwoutM]

Made a little overview of the Data Set beers. Things that are written on the can and things that Nate said in the video's

Beer	Notes on Can	Notes from Video	Other notes
Data set #1 - House Yeast	-	Taste: Tropical Fruits, Soft Mouthfeel	Proprietary blend of yeast, unique
Data set #2 - Wild Modern Yeast	Tropical, Southern Hemisphere Hops	Nose: Ton of white wine, tropical fruit, earth citrus, grassy, pungent grapefruit & passionfruit Taste: Juicy, Dry, Very tropical fruit, Sauvignon blanc notes, little bitter	Thiolized yeast, mash hopping because manufacturer recommended
Data set #3 - English Ale Yeast	Simulair as #1 but distinctive difference	Nose: Classic, Rounded, Mango, Sweet Tropical Fruit, Sweet Sugar Taste: Rounded Full Profile, Simulair to #1	Common English Ale Yeast (simulair to house blend), used before but not often
Data set #4 - Thiolized Yeast	Potent Tropical Esters, Tropical Aroma, Passion Fruit, Mellow Guave, Tangerine and Pine	Nose: Weird Aroma, Sweet Tart, Candy like Taste: Almost like Sauvignon blanc, Grapes	This yeast is based on yeast #5
Data set #5 - English Ale Yeast	British Yeast, British Powerhouse, Haze, Fruity Esters, Sweet, Grapefruit, Pine Resin, Marmalde	Nose: Rich Rounded, Tropical Fruit to the Max, Tonnes of Citrus, Passion Fruit, Guave, Mango ect. Taste: Sweet, Juicy, Rich, No Bitter, Tropical fruit, dry	In comments Tree House said it's not Verdant IPA Lallemand, Classic Euoprean Yeast Strain sold to them as a fenomenal Hazy IPA maker
Data set #6 - Nordic Yeast	Astounding Temprature Range, Clean Tropical Profile, Huge Pineapple, Lingering Mango	Nose: Rustic, Sweet Orange, Clamentine, Citrus Taste: Pear, Lemon, Orange marmalade tea	Kveik, never used in IPA before by Tree House
Data set #7 - NEIPA Yeast	Uncanny Peach, Floral, White Peach, Apricot, Summer Cobblers and Ripe Yellow	Nose: Sweet, Summer Stone Fruit & Aprichots & Peach & Citrus, Resinus Taste: Summer Stonefruit & Aprichot, Dry and Bitter	Classic NE style yeast

Yeast that came to my mind:
#1
#2 WLP077
#3 Conan
#4 Helio Gazer
#5 British Ale V
#6 Kveik Voss
#7 LalBrew New England

Or maybe one of these New England IPA Archives - Inland Island Yeast

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yeast that came to my mind:
#1
#2 WLP077
#3 Conan
#4 Helio Gazer
#5 British Ale V
#6 Kveik Voss
#7 LalBrew New England

They didn't come to my mind. The fact that he's talking about thiolised yeast, makes me assume that they're sourcing yeast from Omega, and my working assumption is that the yeast all come from Omega unless there's evidence otherwise.

#2 is thiolised, implying gene editing (which WLP077 isn't) - as in #4309 above, that with the higher attenuation makes me think thiolised Chico - Star Party.
#3 Some other "standard" British yeast - my guess would be one of the Whitbreads which in Omega terms means British Ale I or II (or even just S-04 on its own?)
#4 One of the thiolised British Ale V's, don't know them well enough to tell whether it's Cosmic Punch or the more powerful patB Helio Gazer.
#5 British Ale V
#6 Voss
#7 Must be a Conan - and assuming Omega then it's OYL-52 DIPA rather than the Lallemand version.

 

[EwoutM]

#2 is thiolised, implying gene editing (which WLP077 isn't) - as in #4309 above, that with the higher attenuation makes me think thiolised Chico - Star Party.

I agree I think it's a lot of Omega. but WLP077 has the possibility to do the same as thioloized engineered yeasts but without gene editing. So I think the ''Wild Modern Yeast'' refers to non gene editing (wild) but with a modern take on yeasts (thiols etc).

 

[EwoutM]

I agree I think it's a lot of Omega. but WLP077 has the possibility to do the same as thioloized engineered yeasts but without gene editing. So I think the ''Wild Modern Yeast'' refers to non gene editing (wild) but with a modern take on yeasts (thiols etc).

Or a yeast like Thiol Libre

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I agree I think it's a lot of Omega. but WLP077 has the possibility to do the same as thioloized engineered yeasts but without gene editing.

You've said it yourself - "thiolised" is taken to mean "gene-edited", and he explicitly says #2 is "thiolised" (as opposed to eg "thiolising" which is how people would talk about the "natural" route).

And from everything I've seen, WLP077 is nothing like as intense as the gene edited strains, it's more a general fruitiness rather than the intense hit of Sauvignon Blanc that he talks about which seems more typical of the gene-edited British Ale V's. But of course White Labs hype it up for the benefit of Europeans who can't use gene edited yeast, and to hide the fact that they've missed out on the patents.

Also he talks about a "strain" whereas WLP077 is a blend.

So I think the ''Wild Modern Yeast'' refers to non gene editing (wild) but with a modern take on yeasts (thiols etc).

But "wild" doesn't mean "not-gene-edited". WLP077 seems to be a blend of standard brewery Saccharomyces like WLP830, whereas "wild" in the yeast world normally refers to non-Sacc yeast.

I suspect they're using "wild" in the sense of "crazy".

 

[secretlevel]

Ok, I finally tasted through the series 1-6 in a blind tasting and these beers kind of changed how I think about certain strains. Seriously cool of TH to do this to let us homebrewers nerd out.

To add to @Northern_Brewer note, I don't think that this yeast was gene-edited at all. Neither the can, nor the description say that it's thiolized, only Nate said that in his video, which may have been his misconception. The yeast produces thiols through biotransformation, as the can notes, as do a several other yeasts.

I'm convinced that it's Imperial A20 or similar (Sacch. cerevisiae var. diastaticus), as it's the only juicy/NEIPA type strain that contains "wild" keywords:
'“Wild” saccharomyces yeast strain known to produce a huge citrus fruit ester profile.'

Having tried Helio Gazer, Cosmic Punch, and Lunar Crush among other thiolized yeasts out right now, Data Set #2 tasted nothing like the others, and nothing like #4, which was very similar to Helio gazer.

But I digress. The vid is below if you wanna watch the tasting and our ranking and sensory, but if you skip to 17 min, it's where we reveal the beers and compare our notes and rankings.

Yeast reveal and discussion toward the end, but here's what I thought they were:

1.House Yeast.
2. Yeast similar to Imperial A20.
3. Only one we weren't sure about. Conan would make sense!
4. Helio Gazer yeast from Omega or super tholized yeast from another manufacturer.
5. I'm convinced that this is S-04, which is why we thought it was so similar to the House yeast. House has a hint of the same ester character, just toned down and more citrusy.
Pretty sure it's not British Ale V/LA3 because it has a very doughey character to it that I don't get in any hazy brews released in Chicagoland (all use British Ale V equivalent). It's also a strain I brew with monthly.
6. Kveik, which was really cool. It didn't taste like Voss to me, but I've never personally brewed with it so hard to say.
Can anyone for sure confirm that it's Voss?

 

[beervoid]

Ok, I finally tasted through the series 1-6 in a blind tasting and these beers kind of changed how I think about certain strains. Seriously cool of TH to do this to let us homebrewers nerd out.

To add to @Northern_Brewer note, I don't think that this yeast was gene-edited at all. Neither the can, nor the description say that it's thiolized, only Nate said that in his video, which may have been his misconception. The yeast produces thiols through biotransformation, as the can notes, as do a several other yeasts.

I'm convinced that it's Imperial A20 or similar (Sacch. cerevisiae var. diastaticus), as it's the only juicy/NEIPA type strain that contains "wild" keywords:
'“Wild” saccharomyces yeast strain known to produce a huge citrus fruit ester profile.'

Having tried Helio Gazer, Cosmic Punch, and Lunar Crush among other thiolized yeasts out right now, Data Set #2 tasted nothing like the others, and nothing like #4, which was very similar to Helio gazer.

But I digress. The vid is below if you wanna watch the tasting and our ranking and sensory, but if you skip to 17 min, it's where we reveal the beers and compare our notes and rankings.

Yeast reveal and discussion toward the end, but here's what I thought they were:

1.House Yeast.
2. Yeast similar to Imperial A20.
3. Only one we weren't sure about. Conan would make sense!
4. Helio Gazer yeast from Omega or super tholized yeast from another manufacturer.
5. I'm convinced that this is S-04, which is why we thought it was so similar to the House yeast. House has a hint of the same ester character, just toned down and more citrusy.
Pretty sure it's not British Ale V/LA3 because it has a very doughey character to it that I don't get in any hazy brews released in Chicagoland (all use British Ale V equivalent). It's also a strain I brew with monthly.
6. Kveik, which was really cool. It didn't taste like Voss to me, but I've never personally brewed with it so hard to say.
Can anyone for sure confirm that it's Voss?

Did you brew many beers with s04?

 

[secretlevel]

Did you brew many beers with s04?

Yeah, generally haven't been a very big fan. It's a crazy fast yeast though!

 

[beervoid]

Yeah, generally haven't been a very big fan. It's a crazy fast yeast though!

Ok just wondering as you identified it as the yeast in that beer, is that the beer where Nate says its very similar to our blend?
I have to rewatch, but I def do not like so4 on its own.

 

[beervoid]

Ok, I finally tasted through the series 1-6 in a blind tasting and these beers kind of changed how I think about certain strains. Seriously cool of TH to do this to let us homebrewers nerd out.

To add to @Northern_Brewer note, I don't think that this yeast was gene-edited at all. Neither the can, nor the description say that it's thiolized, only Nate said that in his video, which may have been his misconception. The yeast produces thiols through biotransformation, as the can notes, as do a several other yeasts.

I'm convinced that it's Imperial A20 or similar (Sacch. cerevisiae var. diastaticus), as it's the only juicy/NEIPA type strain that contains "wild" keywords:
'“Wild” saccharomyces yeast strain known to produce a huge citrus fruit ester profile.'

Having tried Helio Gazer, Cosmic Punch, and Lunar Crush among other thiolized yeasts out right now, Data Set #2 tasted nothing like the others, and nothing like #4, which was very similar to Helio gazer.

But I digress. The vid is below if you wanna watch the tasting and our ranking and sensory, but if you skip to 17 min, it's where we reveal the beers and compare our notes and rankings.

Yeast reveal and discussion toward the end, but here's what I thought they were:

1.House Yeast.
2. Yeast similar to Imperial A20.
3. Only one we weren't sure about. Conan would make sense!
4. Helio Gazer yeast from Omega or super tholized yeast from another manufacturer.
5. I'm convinced that this is S-04, which is why we thought it was so similar to the House yeast. House has a hint of the same ester character, just toned down and more citrusy.
Pretty sure it's not British Ale V/LA3 because it has a very doughey character to it that I don't get in any hazy brews released in Chicagoland (all use British Ale V equivalent). It's also a strain I brew with monthly.
6. Kveik, which was really cool. It didn't taste like Voss to me, but I've never personally brewed with it so hard to say.
Can anyone for sure confirm that it's Voss?

Judging by the tasting notes of Nate I would say nr 7 is conan and number 3 la3.

 

[echoALEia]

Ok, I finally tasted through the series 1-6 in a blind tasting and these beers kind of changed how I think about certain strains. Seriously cool of TH to do this to let us homebrewers nerd out.

To add to @Northern_Brewer note, I don't think that this yeast was gene-edited at all. Neither the can, nor the description say that it's thiolized, only Nate said that in his video, which may have been his misconception. The yeast produces thiols through biotransformation, as the can notes, as do a several other yeasts.

I'm convinced that it's Imperial A20 or similar (Sacch. cerevisiae var. diastaticus), as it's the only juicy/NEIPA type strain that contains "wild" keywords:
'“Wild” saccharomyces yeast strain known to produce a huge citrus fruit ester profile.'

Having tried Helio Gazer, Cosmic Punch, and Lunar Crush among other thiolized yeasts out right now, Data Set #2 tasted nothing like the others, and nothing like #4, which was very similar to Helio gazer.

But I digress. The vid is below if you wanna watch the tasting and our ranking and sensory, but if you skip to 17 min, it's where we reveal the beers and compare our notes and rankings.

Yeast reveal and discussion toward the end, but here's what I thought they were:

1.House Yeast.
2. Yeast similar to Imperial A20.
3. Only one we weren't sure about. Conan would make sense!
4. Helio Gazer yeast from Omega or super tholized yeast from another manufacturer.
5. I'm convinced that this is S-04, which is why we thought it was so similar to the House yeast. House has a hint of the same ester character, just toned down and more citrusy.
Pretty sure it's not British Ale V/LA3 because it has a very doughey character to it that I don't get in any hazy brews released in Chicagoland (all use British Ale V equivalent). It's also a strain I brew with monthly.
6. Kveik, which was really cool. It didn't taste like Voss to me, but I've never personally brewed with it so hard to say.
Can anyone for sure confirm that it's Voss?

If 5 is s-04 I’d love to know how they get the haziness from it because I can’t get s-04 to biotransform to save my life no matter what I try. I will say underpitching it does produce some lovely flavors but every beer I make with it clears.

 

[beervoid]

If 5 is s-04 I’d love to know how they get the haziness from it because I can’t get s-04 to biotransform to save my life no matter what I try. I will say underpitching it does produce some lovely flavors but every beer I make with it clears.

Yes had the same experience, and in a blend it doesnt really come out that much, at least not that it makes a noticable difference in the beer.

 

[beervoid]

Tonsmeire did a writeup on thiol releasing yeast stating that labs are looking for wild yeast with thiol producing capabilities so they can use non gmo yeast.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Tonsmeire did a writeup on thiol releasing yeast stating that labs are looking for wild yeast with thiol producing capabilities so they can use non gmo yeast.

Already here,with the likes of WLP077 which is a blend they made after looking at which of their existing yeast had good thiol *releasing* (not "producing") activity - presumably it has a lot of WLP830 (their version of 34/70) :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=74

Lallemand have also been screening :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...iols-and-their-role-in-hop-biotransformation/

 

[beervoid]

Already here,with the likes of WLP077 which is a blend they made after looking at which of their existing yeast had good thiol *releasing* (not "producing") activity - presumably it has a lot of WLP830 (their version of 34/70) :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=74View attachment 820245

Lallemand have also been screening :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...iols-and-their-role-in-hop-biotransformation/View attachment 820246

I was hinting at the "wild yeast" in the tree house yeast series. Probably a wild strain some lab identified as high thiol producing.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I was hinting at the "wild yeast" in the tree house yeast series. Probably a wild strain some lab identified as high thiol producing.

I think that's based on a misunderstanding of English, as I said before, I don't think that's "wild" in the sense of a non-Saccharomyces yeast.

 

[beervoid]

I think that's based on a misunderstanding of English, as I said before, I don't think that's "wild" in the sense of a non-Saccharomyces yeast.

That's what Tonsmeire reported.
quote:
"As a result there are labs working with wild isolates capable of freeing thiols for co-fermentations (e.g., CHR Hansen - it is primarily marketed for NA beers) and breeding strains with heightened thiol freeing capabilities (e.g., Escarpment)"
Source: Are Thiols a Scam? Thiolized Yeast, Phantasm, and the Rise of Designer Beer | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That's what Tonsmeire reported.

I wasn't talking about his use of the word, but in relation to Tree House's use of it. In any case, TH seem relatively conservative when it comes to yeast - and even the yeast geeks don't seem to go in for co-ferments that much. Things like Metschnikowia have been available from mainstream suppliers for some time now but haven't really taken off.

It's actually fascinating seeing it from both sides of the fence, the other day I was talking to a guy who prospects full-time for weird fermentation organisms and his perspective on these things was very different.

Let's just say that in the US I think they'll mainly go the gene-edited route (think Sourvisiae and the Omega thiolisers) as it's so much easier.

I was hinting at the "wild yeast" in the tree house yeast series.

 

[PilotAlex17]

A side story involving WB-06.

I brewed a double IPA, fairly standard recipe of golden promise/flaked oats/carapils. 4 gallons were fermented with Imperial A38 pitched at 70°, then dropped at high krausen to 65°.

1 gallon was separately fermented with half a packet of WB-06 at a constant 82°. This is well above recommended. The WB-06 batch is pure banana and bubble gum. No clove. It remains kegged at the moment.

The main batch was incredibly estery and fruity, exactly what I was looking for. And probably more so than I’ve ever done before. Unfortunately I yielded so little into the keg after a trub dump before fermentation, trub dump before dry hop, and loss of beer to the dry hop sludge (6 oz of DH). Therefore I just re-did the main batch and yielded 6.8 into the unitank. It will be pitched at 74°, allowed to reach high krausen, then dropped to 64°. After this, I will experiment with mixing the WB-06 batch with this new main batch.

Some notes on why I did what I did, and most of it is from reading Scott Jannish’s The New IPA. All of this can be debated but there is evidence for each.

- Research shows dropping the temperature at high krausen maximizes ester production, at least in one study.
- Trub left in the ferment equated to less esters. I have a hard time separating the trub from my cooling wort and so I’ve implemented a later dump from the unitank.
- Dumping the yeast cake allows for better hop pellet contact as the pellets don’t sink into the cake, lessening their impact. This has been noted by several brewers in addition to the book.
- I also semi-crashed the main batch to drop out the yeast before dry hopping. This has improved my dry hop flavor. This time, I crashed to 50°, given my ferment was at 65°.

That’s all. I mixed the two batches in small amounts but the poor yield from the main batch didn’t allow me to get a good mix of blend levels. I’ve been pursuing this for years now and I have to say, this latest work feels closest to what I’m looking for.

 

[beervoid]

A side story involving WB-06.

I brewed a double IPA, fairly standard recipe of golden promise/flaked oats/carapils. 4 gallons were fermented with Imperial A38 pitched at 70°, then dropped at high krausen to 65°.

1 gallon was separately fermented with half a packet of WB-06 at a constant 82°. This is well above recommended. The WB-06 batch is pure banana and bubble gum. No clove. It remains kegged at the moment.

The main batch was incredibly estery and fruity, exactly what I was looking for. And probably more so than I’ve ever done before. Unfortunately I yielded so little into the keg after a trub dump before fermentation, trub dump before dry hop, and loss of beer to the dry hop sludge (6 oz of DH). Therefore I just re-did the main batch and yielded 6.8 into the unitank. It will be pitched at 74°, allowed to reach high krausen, then dropped to 64°. After this, I will experiment with mixing the WB-06 batch with this new main batch.

Some notes on why I did what I did, and most of it is from reading Scott Jannish’s The New IPA. All of this can be debated but there is evidence for each.

- Research shows dropping the temperature at high krausen maximizes ester production, at least in one study.
- Trub left in the ferment equated to less esters. I have a hard time separating the trub from my cooling wort and so I’ve implemented a later dump from the unitank.
- Dumping the yeast cake allows for better hop pellet contact as the pellets don’t sink into the cake, lessening their impact. This has been noted by several brewers in addition to the book.
- I also semi-crashed the main batch to drop out the yeast before dry hopping. This has improved my dry hop flavor. This time, I crashed to 50°, given my ferment was at 65°.

That’s all. I mixed the two batches in small amounts but the poor yield from the main batch didn’t allow me to get a good mix of blend levels. I’ve been pursuing this for years now and I have to say, this latest work feels closest to what I’m looking for.

How did fermentation go? Would believe it would take a bit longer to finish up

 

[PilotAlex17]

How did fermentation go? Would believe it would take a bit longer to finish up

Rather quick actually, no noticeable slowdown. Reached terminal in 5 days. I’ve got another one going with a greater temperature drop so we’ll see about this one.

 

[beervoid]

Rather quick actually, no noticeable slowdown. Reached terminal in 5 days. I’ve got another one going with a greater temperature drop so we’ll see about this one.

It always made sense to me as the lower the temp the less volatiles dissipate, esters are very volatile, I'd be worried a bit about diacetyl though it seems tree house might be employing extensive conditioning to help negate this.

 

[PilotAlex17]

I haven’t gotten diacetyl from A38, or enough to notice it anyway. But of course TH isn’t using A38.

 

[beervoid]

Rather quick actually, no noticeable slowdown. Reached terminal in 5 days. I’ve got another one going with a greater temperature drop so we’ll see about this one.

At what time did you drop the temperature. Got one going now planning to drop it at 48h. Going from 75f to 66f

 

[PilotAlex17]

At what time did you drop the temperature. Got one going now planning to drop it at 48h. Going from 75f to 66f

Right at 24 hours from pitch. I’ll be back with more details soon.

 

[hmmy92]

The videos of Treehouse are very good. But nobody is talking about the beers. I had Julius 5 years before and it was perfect. Now it is just a decent hazy IPA both in can and on tap. I have talked to several people and they have the same opinion too. Do you agree on that?

 

[PilotAlex17]

The videos of Treehouse are very good. But nobody is talking about the beers. I had Julius 5 years before and it was perfect. Now it is just a decent hazy IPA both in can and on tap. I have talked to several people and they have the same opinion too. Do you agree on that?

I’d have to disagree, there is still something special about TH. I have a huge supply of all of the NEIPAs out there and in my opinion, TH’s unique flavor is just special.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Adding this info on this Bootleg Biology release here...even if it started with a poll on /r/homebrewing

Secret Clubhouse: The IPA blend to rule them all! Primarily English yeast with a dash of two cultures of Belgian origin. Delivers a familiar English flavor with faint Belgian esters and phenolics. A hazy lover’s dream.

https://bootlegbiology.com/2023/11/12/🆕🆕🆕-winter-beta-cultures-are-here/
https://bootlegbiology.com/product/secret-clubhouse/