Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[day_trippr]

Prime example: $10 a six pack/$20 a 12 pack for Fiddlehead here, a very good hazy. And there are others...

Cheers!

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Prime example: $10 a six pack/$20 a 12 pack for Fiddlehead here, a very good hazy. And there are others...

Cheers!

Fiddlehead is hit or miss. Not worth it to me. And you buy it from a gas station or packie you’re running the risk of when it was bottled/can and then leaving it out in the warm store for months.

I mean this is a yeast thread not a price on 4 pack thread. But to the other guys point Nate does a good job keeping up quality and not distributing and running the risk of the distributor keeping the beers too long, storing improperly and not cleaning keg lines properly. Prime example with Fiddlehead, I had it at one bar and it was awesome, had it at another bar and it was trash. Good thing that wasn’t my first time having it because I’d probably never have it again. Sometimes breweries sacrifice quality for profits and distributing to bars/packies that don’t keep things proper hurts their brand in the long run IMO. TH doesn’t do that.

 

[day_trippr]

Nevermind, no point in continuing here...

 

[isomerization]

107 pages in, I can't remember. was la3 ever analysed and compared?

Edit*
I searched but didnt find any analysis of LA3

I tested 1318 at one point, you can see on page 2 I think that it’s labeled (pic is gone). Was not a match.

I will try to dig up the PCR pictures and repost this evening, should be on an old laptop.

 

[troxerX]

@isomerization +1 I remember spending some time looking at the PCRs and absolutely there was no match for 1318. Will be great to refresh the pictures again (thanks!).

We’ve seen few times in the past that TH has mentioned part of their process is all about stressing their yeast (one I recall was their collab with Toppling G where it was mentioned but don’t know where to find now), reason I say this - because I’m not sure if I’m seeing any of that here in these videos unless stressing for them means not aerating the wort (not sure if they aerated that homebrew batch) and maybe fermenting cold like around 60F?, is there any other way to stress yeast that we are missing here?.

Here is the secret sauce close and personal based on their latest video today (30 mins ago), the sauce seems to be developing its own personality now LOL.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

anhydrous calcium chloride and gypsum...top secret

 

[CascadesBrewer]

anhydrous calcium chloride and gypsum...top secret

If one was to take the recipe from the video to try and brew that beer...is there some general knowledge of what Treehouse targets for a water profile? (Sorry if that has been discussed already in this thread). Sulfate heavy? Chloride heavy? Balanced? What about the level of Calcium or Sodium?

I pulled the following values from this article: Ward Labs Mineral Analysis of Tree House Julius (Again). Do you think Tree House actually pushes Sulfate up near 100? In order for me to hit those levels of Chloride and Sulfate, I would have to push my Calcium up to ~150 ppm (using Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions).

Calcium, Ca ppm 89 - 100
Magnesium, Mg ppm 4 - 6
Sodium, Na ppm 10 - 11
Chloride, Cl ppm 175 - 220
Sulfate, SO4 ppm 100 - 134

Would the be a fairly decent water profile? (which I can get with 7g Calcium Chloride and 2g Gypsum)

Ca: 111.4 ppm, Mg: 7.0 ppm, Na: 25.0 ppm, SO4: 68.3 ppm, Cl: 155.8 ppm

 

[Hopperazi]

If one was to take the recipe from the video to try and brew that beer...is there some general knowledge of what Treehouse targets for a water profile? (Sorry if that has been discussed already in this thread). Sulfate heavy? Chloride heavy? Balanced? What about the level of Calcium or Sodium?

I pulled the following values from this article: Ward Labs Mineral Analysis of Tree House Julius (Again). Do you think Tree House actually pushes Sulfate up near 100? In order for me to hit those levels of Chloride and Sulfate, I would have to push my Calcium up to ~150 ppm (using Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions).

Calcium, Ca ppm 89 - 100
Magnesium, Mg ppm 4 - 6
Sodium, Na ppm 10 - 11
Chloride, Cl ppm 175 - 220
Sulfate, SO4 ppm 100 - 134

Would the be a fairly decent water profile? (which I can get with 7g Calcium Chloride and 2g Gypsum)

Ca: 111.4 ppm, Mg: 7.0 ppm, Na: 25.0 ppm, SO4: 68.3 ppm, Cl: 155.8 ppm

KcL could be a solution, thats what I'm going to try on my upcoming batch rather than CaCL. Ive seen various levels of success on this thread, some love it, some not so much, Im looking forward to trying it for myself.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

If one was to take the recipe from the video to try and brew that beer...is there some general knowledge of what Treehouse targets for a water profile? (Sorry if that has been discussed already in this thread). Sulfate heavy? Chloride heavy? Balanced? What about the level of Calcium or Sodium?

I pulled the following values from this article: Ward Labs Mineral Analysis of Tree House Julius (Again). Do you think Tree House actually pushes Sulfate up near 100? In order for me to hit those levels of Chloride and Sulfate, I would have to push my Calcium up to ~150 ppm (using Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions).

Calcium, Ca ppm 89 - 100
Magnesium, Mg ppm 4 - 6
Sodium, Na ppm 10 - 11
Chloride, Cl ppm 175 - 220
Sulfate, SO4 ppm 100 - 134

Would the be a fairly decent water profile? (which I can get with 7g Calcium Chloride and 2g Gypsum)

Ca: 111.4 ppm, Mg: 7.0 ppm, Na: 25.0 ppm, SO4: 68.3 ppm, Cl: 155.8 ppm

A few posts back I made some guesstimates for Greenish, your profile looks close to me

 

[isomerization]

Here is what I could find, first two images have colonies from dregs of TH cans (Doppelganger and Julius) streaked out and then individual PCR analysed. Last image is all of the different commercial yeasts I tested, with my best attempt to scale separate agarose gels together. Last image is a better analysis of CBC-1 against "red square colony".

View attachment Slide1.jpg

View attachment Slide2.jpg
View attachment Slide3.jpg

Legend:
A - WLP644
B - F1
C - F1/C4
D - Conan (TYB)
E - S-33 (Fermentis)
F - WB-06 (Fermentis)
G - K-97 (Fermentis)
H - Windsor (Danstar)
I - London ESB (Danstar)
J - WY1056
K - WY1272
L - WY1332
M - WY1318
N - WY1968
O - WLP670 (saison isolate)
P - WLP802
Q - TH Julius isolate (later determined to be T-58 like, green circle)
R - Vermont Ale (TYB; duplicate with D)
S - WY3944
T - TH Double Shot isolate (haven't gone back to see if this was the only strain...)
U - S-04 (Fermentis)
V - S-05 (Fermentis)
W - S-23 (Fermentis)
X - Munich (Danstar)
Y - W-34/70 (Fermentis)
Z - T-58 (Fermentis)
AA - CBC-1 (Lallemand)
BB - BE-256 (Fermentis)

View attachment Slide4.jpg

 

[isomerization]

Hmm, thought the images would imbed in the post, but the links at least are high res, hopefully not too annoying to look at.

 

[Hopperazi]

So found an article after doing some deeper research into KCL, before my next attempt. There has to be more to Nates "Secret Sauce" than the typical additions. Based on their high potassium levels from the Ward Labs analysis, maybe they are in fact using KCL, rather than NaCL or CaCL, to keep their sodium and calcium low but keep the body, flavor and hop character high. Possibly that excess of potassium is also stressing the yeast. So under pitching, Low O2, and high K, might have the added stress benefit to their crazy esters.

Would that slightly sour flavor also possibly be what people are picking up from what they think is the S04, or maybe its just amplifying the "tartness" of that yeast?

 

[LumberZach]

View attachment 814149

So found an article after doing some deeper research into KCL, before my next attempt. There has to be more to Nates "Secret Sauce" than the typical additions. Based on their high potassium levels from the Ward Labs analysis, maybe they are in fact using KCL, rather than NaCL or CaCL, to keep their sodium and calcium low but keep the body, flavor and hop character high. Possibly that excess of potassium is also stressing the yeast. So under pitching, Low O2, and high K, might have the added stress benefit to their crazy esters.

Would that slightly sour flavor also possibly be what people are picking up from what they think is the S04, or maybe its just amplifying the "tartness" of that yeast?

That Ward Labs analysis is post fermentation and from a finished beer. Mineral levels change drastically during fermentation. You can't predict what the mash water profile is from the analysis of a finished beer.

 

[Hopperazi]

That Ward Labs analysis is post fermentation and from a finished beer. Mineral levels change drastically during fermentation. You can't predict what the mash water profile is from the analysis of a finished beer.

I get that, but their potassium levels seem higher than others, to me that means KCL vs what others might be doing. That's what we are trying to figure out here, its what and how are they doing it differently

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I get that, but their potassium levels seem higher than others, to me that means KCL vs what others might be doing. That's what we are trying to figure out here, its what and how are they doing it differently

Russian River and Trillium beers have been tested at comparable potassium levels, it's unlikely those breweries are using KCl

Even if TH is using KCl - which I doubt - the modest quantity of salts in their homebrew recipe and the real Greenish batch suggests they aren't pushing minerals levels

It's probably coming from the grist and/or insane DH quantities

Not suggesting you don't try it yourself...

 

[troxerX]

How about Magnesium Chloride?, Nate mentioned it took him years and years to develop “Secret Sauce”, is it possible simple salt additions of gypsum and CaCl take that long to develop?.

 

[beervoid]

View attachment 814149

So found an article after doing some deeper research into KCL, before my next attempt. There has to be more to Nates "Secret Sauce" than the typical additions. Based on their high potassium levels from the Ward Labs analysis, maybe they are in fact using KCL, rather than NaCL or CaCL, to keep their sodium and calcium low but keep the body, flavor and hop character high. Possibly that excess of potassium is also stressing the yeast. So under pitching, Low O2, and high K, might have the added stress benefit to their crazy esters.

Would that slightly sour flavor also possibly be what people are picking up from what they think is the S04, or maybe its just amplifying the "tartness" of that yeast?

From which book is that?
I've tested alot with Kcl, didnt find any improvement. In higher quantities it leaves a harsh bitter on the end of the pallet.

 

[beervoid]

Has anyone tried curiosity one hundred twenty nine? they use a new yeast in there, curious to know if it has the typical tree house esters.

 

[Hopperazi]

So just drinking King Julius canned 02-23 and Im completely disappointed, it doesn't have that bubblegum juicy fruit character that I'm use to. The hops are more predominant and green, and there's none of that yeast character that I was hugely anticipating and ready to think deep and hard about. I'm still convinced they blend but this one has me scratching my head, did the CBC not take out the WB06 and T58 like it usually does and it allowed that to clean up the esters, Ive never had a TH that tastes so unlike TH and more like every other NEIPA. I'm completely mystified.

 

[Hopperazi]

From which book is that?
I've tested alot with Kcl, didnt find any improvement. In higher quantities it leaves a harsh bitter on the end of the pallet.

It was online, I'll have to find it again, I was just researching KCL and found that article

 

[beervoid]

So just drinking King Julius canned 02-23 and Im completely disappointed, it doesn't have that bubblegum juicy fruit character that I'm use to. The hops are more predominant and green, and there's none of that yeast character that I was hugely anticipating and ready to think deep and hard about. I'm still convinced they blend but this one has me scratching my head, did the CBC not take out the WB06 and T58 like it usually does and it allowed that to clean up the esters, Ive never had a TH that tastes so unlike TH and more like every other NEIPA. I'm completely mystified.

My exact experience with a king julius, good beer but 0 TH character. It was not super fresh though

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Has anyone tried curiosity one hundred twenty nine? they use a new yeast in there, curious to know if it has the typical tree house esters.

I was there last week. I was shocked by how much house character it has. I expected it to be something more noticeable, but honestly, it tastes similar. I've only had one can so far so we'll see what I taste the second time around.

As for all the potassium talk ... In the book "Water" by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, they mention that all barley wort @ 10 degrees plato contains ~400ppm of potassium. So if TH isn't using a lot of wheat or oats in their core line up of beers it would explain the higher potassium levels. Plus, some yeast nutrients contain potassium as well (Yeastex for example). Would be worth experimenting with potassium though! Especially in high adjunct IPAs.

Wouldn't be surprised if they increase pH before fermentation with their "secret sauce" to avoid that twang from S04. I feel like the twang decreases after the first generation too, FWIW.

 

[beervoid]

I was there last week. I was shocked by how much house character it has. I expected it to be something more noticeable, but honestly, it tastes similar. I've only had one can so far so we'll see what I taste the second time around.

As for all the potassium talk ... In the book "Water" by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, they mention that all barley wort @ 10 degrees plato contains ~400ppm of potassium. So if TH isn't using a lot of wheat or oats in their core line up of beers it would explain the higher potassium levels. Plus, some yeast nutrients contain potassium as well (Yeastex for example). Would be worth experimenting with potassium though! Especially in high adjunct IPAs.

Wouldn't be surprised if they increase pH before fermentation with their "secret sauce" to avoid that twang from S04. I feel like the twang decreases after the first generation too, FWIW.

Interesting, if they then use a new yeast what would be the point if its still getting overshadowed by their "house yeast character".
It would mean they are blending this new yeast in, perhaps one of those thiol yeasts for experimenting, and still their house yeast esters trampled over it.
Thats a pretty damn expressive house yeast then.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Interesting, if they then use a new yeast what would be the point if its still getting overshadowed by their "house yeast character".
It would mean they are blending this new yeast in, perhaps one of those thiol yeasts for experimenting, and still their house yeast esters trampled over it.
Thats a pretty damn expressive house yeast then.

I'll report back when I crack another can. If we assume that the most recent Curiosity is LAIII based on their latest youtube vids, maybe they wanted to try it with their house blend? For example, LAIII with a sprinkle of T58 and WB06. Would make sense for the Curiosity series.

They're doing a "Data Set" series where they experiment with different yeasts on their own. The first one was released last week and is their control which is their house yeast.

And everyone in this thread knows damn well that the secret sauce strains in their blend can be quite dominant LOL

All speculation here btw

 

[hmmy92]

I don't think that just because he used LA III in a homebrew video he will use it to Julius too. He is really secretive with his recipe (see secret sause, hops etc) so why to give information about the yeast?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I don't think that just because he used LA III in a homebrew video he will use it to Julius too. He is really secretive with his recipe (see secret sause, hops etc) so why to give information about the yeast?

Agreed. No way that they use it in Julius or will (unless the really like the results of the curiosity beers etc.). And it is just speculation that they are using it in the latest curiosity based on the YouTube video.

 

[hmmy92]

They are clever. The keep the hype train running

 

[Dog House Brew]

So just drinking King Julius canned 02-23 and Im completely disappointed, it doesn't have that bubblegum juicy fruit character that I'm use to. The hops are more predominant and green, and there's none of that yeast character that I was hugely anticipating and ready to think deep and hard about. I'm still convinced they blend but this one has me scratching my head, did the CBC not take out the WB06 and T58 like it usually does and it allowed that to clean up the esters, Ive never had a TH that tastes so unlike TH and more like every other NEIPA. I'm completely mystified.

Quantity over quality? Would make sense as it happens to most

 

[hmmy92]

Sorry but what is CBC and how is it related to WB06 and T58

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/product-details/lalbrew-cbc-1/
CBC-1 is a "killer yeast" strain and will literally wipe out living competitors, like wb06 and t58...

Cheers!