Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[SkiHazy]

An interesting note:
Looking at the Tree House curiosity series descriptions. Apparently they didn’t start carbonating in the fermenter until late 2017 or early 2018? (Curiosity Forty Four). Assuming they didn’t start putting CBC-1/F2 in their beers until then.

Maybe that explains why I had such good results with using their can dregs. I think all of the cans I built up yeast from were from before that time.

I have an experiment going right now. I’ve built up can dregs from the following beers:

Jjjuiceee Machine
Vvveryyy Green
Regular Green
New Day
Prodigal Haze pt III

Will be brewing split batch with each. Trying to decided if I should plate them and try to remove the CBC-1/F2 somehow then build back up… not sure how that would work though.

 

[Hopperazi]

New Video up, so incredibly impressive the amount of control they have. Im sure some of you caught this.....they blurred out the Secret Sauce addition in every frame except the first one. 783ml is nothing, wtf kind of liquid could they be adding that is that small and part of their secret? Its not salt/mineral additions, way too small for any of that. What could be that special and small that has an impact in the Lautertun?!?!

Also interesting to note that Munich II and Carafoam have a set designation in their recipe builder, so its definitely a part of their core recipes.

 

[beervoid]

New Video up, so incredibly impressive the amount of control they have. Im sure some of you caught this.....they blurred out the Secret Sauce addition in every frame except the first one. 783ml is nothing, wtf kind of liquid could they be adding that is that small and part of their secret? Its not salt/mineral additions, way too small for any of that. What could be that special and small that has an impact in the Lautertun?!?!

Also interesting to note that Munich II and Carafoam have a set designation in their recipe builder, so its definitely a part of their core recipes.

View attachment 847818

Acid for ph adjustment?

 

[Hopperazi]

Acid for ph adjustment?

Would they call that a secret sauce though? Unless its a very specific mix of lactic and phosphoric or something like that.

 

[DevilsCups]

I’m gonna throw a Hail Mary and guess potassium chloride.

 

[beervoid]

Would they call that a secret sauce though? Unless its a very specific mix of lactic and phosphoric or something like that.

Don't know why not, they where kind of joking with it I guess

 

[beervoid]

New Video up, so incredibly impressive the amount of control they have. Im sure some of you caught this.....they blurred out the Secret Sauce addition in every frame except the first one. 783ml is nothing, wtf kind of liquid could they be adding that is that small and part of their secret? Its not salt/mineral additions, way too small for any of that. What could be that special and small that has an impact in the Lautertun?!?!

Also interesting to note that Munich II and Carafoam have a set designation in their recipe builder, so its definitely a part of their core recipes.

View attachment 847818

Is that going in the lauter tun?
Seems to go to the water mixer so its water treatment, acids and minerals

 

[Hopperazi]

Is that going in the lauter tun?
Seems to go to the water mixer so its water treatment, acids and minerals

Yeah looks like its mixed with the water on the way to the tun, so most likely acids or antioxidants maybe

 

[SkiHazy]

New Video up, so incredibly impressive the amount of control they have. Im sure some of you caught this.....they blurred out the Secret Sauce addition in every frame except the first one. 783ml is nothing, wtf kind of liquid could they be adding that is that small and part of their secret? Its not salt/mineral additions, way too small for any of that. What could be that special and small that has an impact in the Lautertun?!?!

Also interesting to note that Munich II and Carafoam have a set designation in their recipe builder, so its definitely a part of their core recipes.

View attachment 847818

It was left unblurred for most of the video. Weird that they decided to blur it later on. It was clearly actively changing the amount of “secret sauce” added (on the fly) when Nate switched over to the active Daze brew that was ongoing.

My guess is 88% acid (phosphoric or lactic) automatically added to put the water/mash at the correct pH. That could explain the relatively smaller amount of it being added.

 

[TBryerton]

Awhile back in this thread we discussed which hops are used in which beers. In the description for their 10th anniversary Haze, they confirmed Amarillo. I think most of us knew this was a heavy Amarillo beer, but this confirms it.

 

[beervoid]

Awhile back in this thread we discussed which hops are used in which beers. In the description for their 10th anniversary Haze, they confirmed Amarillo. I think most of us knew this was a heavy Amarillo beer, but this confirms it.

not confirmed, just said it's added to the original blend together with Peacherine.

Does anyone know if Haze has strictly american hops?

 

[TBryerton]

not confirmed, just said it's added to the original blend together with Peacherine.

Does anyone know if Haze has strictly american hops?

I read that description as confirmed. It’s not confirmed if it’s all American hops, but it almost certainly is. It’s definitely heavy Amarillo, most likely some Citra, and probably a kiss of Columbus, maybe even a pinch of Cascade.

 

[beervoid]

I've had Alter Ego recently, Julius with Amarillo and Mosaic and it had strong earthy pepery floral character, I came to expect from Amarillo. Did not enjoy it.

Haze to my pallet exhibits none of that it's very clean peach.
Perhaps they keep their peach Amarillo strictly for the core haze cause the 10th ann. Haze comments say similar things.

 

[TBryerton]

I've had Alter Ego recently, Julius with Amarillo and Mosaic and it had strong earthy pepery floral character, I came to expect from Amarillo. Did not enjoy it.

Haze to my pallet exhibits none of that it's very clean peach.
Perhaps they keep their peach Amarillo strictly for the core haze cause the 10th ann. Haze comments say similar things.

If I remember correctly, Alter Ego is (or at least was) the same kettle hops as Julius, with different hops cold side. Obviously mostly Mosaic.

 

[Lakeside_Brewer5]

An interesting note:
Looking at the Tree House curiosity series descriptions. Apparently they didn’t start carbonating in the fermenter until late 2017 or early 2018? (Curiosity Forty Four). Assuming they didn’t start putting CBC-1/F2 in their beers until then.

Maybe that explains why I had such good results with using their can dregs. I think all of the cans I built up yeast from were from before that time.

I have an experiment going right now. I’ve built up can dregs from the following beers:

Jjjuiceee Machine
Vvveryyy Green
Regular Green
New Day
Prodigal Haze pt III

Will be brewing split batch with each. Trying to decided if I should plate them and try to remove the CBC-1/F2 somehow then build back up… not sure how that would work though.

Did anything ever come from building up those dregs?

 

[OssianOtt]

I plan to try this yeast combo with pressure fermentation in one of my 19 liter corny kegs. The plan is to use 3/15/82% wb-06/T-58/S-04 and use magnets to secure a bag of dry hops inside the keg and drop it into the beer some time into fermentation, everything without opening the keg. Hence I cannot stagger the yeast additions at different times of fermentation. My question for those who've brewed with this yeast combo:

Will the krausen rise a lot? I dont want to wet the DH bag inside for it to drop into solution prematurely due to getting heavier, I can use about 60 grams of hops with the magnets I intend to use but not much more. It would not be good if the krausen will reach it and add weight due to moisture building up. Maybe with a bit of pressure the krausen will not grow that big. I dont have any temperature control and hope to compensate for my around 73-74F temperature in my apartment with a bit of pressure while fermenting.

I've read a bit about staggering the yeast additions on different times into fermentation to come closer to TH taste, would this be neccessary or can I use the ratio above and come close enough (provided that pressure fermentation will compensate somewhat for my warmer temperature). I dont plan to use as much pressure as when I use 34/70 yeast at 73-74F (15 PSI), but maybe somewhere between 1-5 PSI.

I've tasted somewhere between 5-10 different TH beers and dont aim to copy any them, but I will know if I came somewhat close or have some similarity.

 

[troxerX]

The issue here is that S-04 will never deliver the TH flavor as well as the haze since S-04 in my experience will drop like a brick post fermentation and take everything down with it. It never stays in suspension. All the SDS-PAGE evidence in this thread confidently shows S-04 is one of the yeasts, but there is something else they are doing that make that yeast deliver the esters and keeping it in suspension that homebrewers can’t. WB-06, T-58 and CBC-1 are also shown to be included but I might think it’s in very very small amounts as I do not get any of their characteristic phenols in their beers. Also pressure fermentation has been shown to suppress development of esters so you may be in a for a double disappointment.

 

[LumberZach]

The issue here is that S-04 will never deliver the TH flavor as well as the haze since S-04 in my experience will drop like a brick post fermentation and take everything down with it. It never stays in suspension. All the SDS-PAGE evidence in this thread confidently shows S-04 is one of the yeasts, but there is something else they are doing that make that yeast deliver the esters and keeping it in suspension that homebrewers can’t. WB-06, T-58 and CBC-1 are also shown to be included but I might think it’s in very very small amounts as I do not get any of their characteristic phenols in their beers. Also pressure fermentation has been shown to suppress development of esters so you may be in a for a double disappointment.

Yeast in suspension to give you haze is not the way. It's the polyphenols from the hops binding to proteins.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yeast in suspension to give you haze is not the way.

It's not about yeast in suspension, but some yeast strains have a gene that promotes haze formation :
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.07.10.548400v1

All the SDS-PAGE evidence in this thread

No SDS-PAGE in this thread, you run DNA on agarose (but the gel is not the interesting step, it's about the PCR before it that matters).

 

[SkiHazy]

Did anything ever come from building up those dregs?

Yeah the experimental beers did not end up coming out good. The packaging yeast (F2) takes over.

My experience with tree house yeast was before they started doing that. It’s a bummer!

 

[SkiHazy]

Wanted to update the thread on my tree house yeast blend search and experimentation.

The science says it is a blend (from this HBT thread and other blog posts) and I believe that. I’ve brewed many beers with the blend suggested (S04, T58, WB06) but i don’t think it’s the right yeast blend. There are so many yeast strains that were not considered in the analysis, they are missing the correct yeast strains in the blend. The only way to find out would be to do the yeast comparison on agar plates again with a much wider library of yeasts.

My closest results have been with combining S04 and Verdant at 45% each, then 10% T58. Always under pitch cell count by a little bit (~75% of recommended pitch).

This leads me to believe they are using a British yeast as the main blended with a clean-ish Belgian-y yeast. If the yeast experiment were to happen again it should focus on all whitbread-adjacent yeasts (1318 variants, British ales, London ales, etc.) and then also check all strains of cleaner Belgian or wit bier.

 

[beervoid]

Wanted to update the thread on my tree house yeast blend search and experimentation.

The science says it is a blend (from this HBT thread and other blog posts) and I believe that. I’ve brewed many beers with the blend suggested (S04, T58, WB06) but i don’t think it’s the right yeast blend. There are so many yeast strains that were not considered in the analysis, they are missing the correct yeast strains in the blend. The only way to find out would be to do the yeast comparison on agar plates again with a much wider library of yeasts.

My closest results have been with combining S04 and Verdant at 45% each, then 10% T58. Always under pitch cell count by a little bit (~75% of recommended pitch).

This leads me to believe they are using a British yeast as the main blended with a clean-ish Belgian-y yeast. If the yeast experiment were to happen again it should focus on all whitbread-adjacent yeasts (1318 variants, British ales, London ales, etc.) and then also check all strains of cleaner Belgian or wit bier.

What do you get from the T58?

 

[SkiHazy]

What do you get from the T58?

Haven’t don’t a with and without test. I think the T-58 adds to the mouthfeel. Also may add esters that wouldn’t otherwise be there.

I have wanted to try other yeasts as the “10%” addition to a mixture. S-33, Windsor, and BRY-97 are all semi-close to T58 on the yeast family tree.

I’ve heard that BRY-97 is the dry version of WY1272, which supposedly has better pH buffering capability than most yeast. So it could help buffet pH against large dry hop.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have wanted to try other yeasts as the “10%” addition to a mixture. S-33, Windsor, and BRY-97 are all semi-close to T58 on the yeast family tree.

BRY-97 isn't part of that group, it's a mistake. It's definitely part of the Chico family, and probably a member of the 1056/A07/OYL-004 subgroup. See links in :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-white-labs-yeast.642831/page-2#post-10260458

 

[LumberZach]

So I opened a can of Very Green I got from a buddy last weekend. I had doubts, but when I smelled it I got bubblegum. When I tasted it I got bubblegum and that vintage 2015 Green flavor and super soft mouthfeel. I was shocked. With that being said, it has rekindled my interest in trying to get something close to what that signature TH yeast character is.

My plan is to first see what each of the supposed three yeasts do. I'm going to do multiple 1000ml batches. I'm going to use Pilsen DME to get a 1.073 OG. I'm not going to hop it. I just want to see what each yeast gives. I'll try underpitching S-04 and fermenting both cooler (62-64F) and warmer (65-68F). As far as the T-58 and WB-06, echoALEia suggested that maybe overpitching both and fermenting warmer was the key. I'm willing to try anything anyone suggests.

As for equipment, I devised a simple fermenter using a 2 or 3L soda bottle, a Kegland Carbonation Cap Tee Fitting, and two Kegland ball lock disconnects screwed onto the tee with one having a diptube. I have the ability to temp control using a mini fridge and inkbird, but I don't have multiple mini fridges to do multiple tests all at once. I also have a ThermoWorks ph meter that I can adjust the wort these yeasts go into. This will be a slower process, but I'm willing to put alot of time into this.

If anyone has any suggestions, tips, insight or anything else, feel free to reply back or even PM me.

 

[TBryerton]

So I opened a can of Very Green I got from a buddy last weekend. I had doubts, but when I smelled it I got bubblegum. When I tasted it I got bubblegum and that vintage 2015 Green flavor and super soft mouthfeel. I was shocked. With that being said, it has rekindled my interest in trying to get something close to what that signature TH yeast character is.

My plan is to first see what each of the supposed three yeasts do. I'm going to do multiple 1000ml batches. I'm going to use Pilsen DME to get a 1.073 OG. I'm not going to hop it. I just want to see what each yeast gives. I'll try underpitching S-04 and fermenting both cooler (62-64F) and warmer (65-68F). As far as the T-58 and WB-06, echoALEia suggested that maybe overpitching both and fermenting warmer was the key. I'm willing to try anything anyone suggests.

As for equipment, I devised a simple fermenter using a 2 or 3L soda bottle, a Kegland Carbonation Cap Tee Fitting, and two Kegland ball lock disconnects screwed onto the tee with one having a diptube. I have the ability to temp control using a mini fridge and inkbird, but I don't have multiple mini fridges to do multiple tests all at once. I also have a ThermoWorks ph meter that I can adjust the wort these yeasts go into. This will be a slower process, but I'm willing to put alot of time into this.

If anyone has any suggestions, tips, insight or anything else, feel free to reply back or even PM me.

I wasted a lot of time and money trying to reproduce that TH flavor. A few of my takeaways…
- I drink a decent amount of TH, and it’s been a long time since I’ve had a beer that has that vintage TH flavor. At least at the level is use to be at.
- t58 and wb06 stick out like a sore thumb.
- Couple that w/the fact that TH has historically struggled w/consistency, I’m convinced that if they co-pitched all three at the beginning of fermentation, there would definitely be batches where those flavors would be obvious.

 

[SkiHazy]

@LumberZach did you get around to that experiment?

 

[LumberZach]

@LumberZach did you get around to that experiment?

I didn't. I tried doing it, but it became too time consuming. Sorry.

 

[butterblum]

Maybe this info will alter the direction of this discussion:

In this video, The Craft Beer Channel is interviewing the head brewer at Verdant (James) and asks him specifically about their house yeast "strain" - part of which is now being distributed by Lallemand.
James explains that they simply started with a regular pitch of LAIII, which then began to change over time. When they went to have it analyzed/identified, the lab found three different sacch strains present, only one of which was isolated into the dry yeast that is now distributed by Lallemand; they explain that this strain was dominant in proportion to the other two.
It sounds eerily similar to the Treehouse analysis - perhaps the "mixing" of yeasts was never intentional at all, but instead a byproduct of harvesting and re-pitching a "single" strain over time.

 

[beervoid]

Maybe this info will alter the direction of this discussion:

In this video, The Craft Beer Channel is interviewing the head brewer at Verdant (James) and asks him specifically about their house yeast strain - part of which is now being distributed by Lallemand.
James explains that they simply started with a regular pitch of LAIII, which then began to change over time. When they went to have it analyzed/identified, the lab found three different sacch strains present, only one of which was isolated into the dry yeast that is now distributed by Lallemand. They explain that this strain was dominant in proportion to the other two.
It sounds eerily similar to the Treehouse analysis - perhaps the "mixing" of yeasts was never intentional at all, but instead a byproduct of harvesting and re-pitching a "single" strain over time.

Maybe this info will alter the direction of this discussion:

In this video, The Craft Beer Channel is interviewing the head brewer at Verdant (James) and asks him specifically about their house yeast strain - part of which is now being distributed by Lallemand.
James explains that they simply started with a regular pitch of LAIII, which then began to change over time. When they went to have it analyzed/identified, the lab found three different sacch strains present, only one of which was isolated into the dry yeast that is now distributed by Lallemand. They explain that this strain was dominant in proportion to the other two.
It sounds eerily similar to the Treehouse analysis - perhaps the "mixing" of yeasts was never intentional at all, but instead a byproduct of harvesting and re-pitching a "single" strain over time.

Tree House specifically mentions their house yeast is a blend