Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[Clyde McCoy]

Nate single-IPA:

ABV: 7%

2-Row 85%
Carafoam 5%
Oats 10%

Mash: 152F

Boil:

Magnum, 60' 20 IBU
Amarillo, 20' 5 IBU
Citra, 20' 5 IBU
Simcoe, 20' 5 IBU

"Same quantities (Amarillo, Citra, Simcoe) at Flameout"

Yeast: LAIII, 68-70F

Dry Hop at 60F for 4 to 5 days: Amarillo, Citra, Simcoe at 15 grams per liter (2 ounces per gallon).

"15g/L is relatively aggressive in the dry hop, and for many palates 8-10 G/L will be beautiful."

 

[troxerX]

@Clyde McCoy seems like “Hoppy Thing” ‘Decoy’ recipe #2… should call their homebrew batch this week ‘Project Find the Decoy’.. LOL



This is a good way to distract people from getting deeper into the secrets LOL

This will make a solid IPA for sure but not a Julius clone which I’m afraid people will try unsuccessfully…

 

[Clyde McCoy]

@Clyde McCoy seems like “Hoppy Thing” ‘Decoy’ recipe #2… should call their homebrew batch this week ‘Project Find the Decoy’.. LOL



This is a good way to distract people from getting deeper into the secrets LOL

I think other than yeast it's probably faithful to some of their single-IPAs IMO

In another vid Nate mentions receiving a LAIII pitch so I bet they use it on occasion

 

[troxerX]

@Clyde McCoy 100% I agree, I recall tasting the yeast burn typical of LAIII in their ‘Trick’ DIPA which I wasn’t a big fan so I’m sure they’ve been using it sporadically. Same for other ingredients like flaked grains and different hop varieties.

But when it comes to the Julius series, the recipe is locked and we will never hear it from the horses mouth… it’s up to us to put the work in and figure it out.

 

[beervoid]

I think other than yeast it's probably faithful to some of their single-IPAs IMO

In another vid Nate mentions receiving a LAIII pitch so I bet they use it on occasion

It sounded scripted when he said that, video was cut and the way how he said there is a pitch coming in, as if specifically wants us to know they order that for their batches.. and he wants to use that.
Dunno maybe I'm imagining things.

 

[troxerX]

Yeah and what does 5% Carafoam does?, nothing.. you got to have 15 if not 20% for it to have some effect, also I’m sure he uses Crystal 60 for Julius as you can see in the old Julius and even in the King and jjJ versions that deep darker reddish color. What about water profile sulfate-chloride ratio?, if ‘IPA doesn’t have to be hard’ why not share mineral additions..

 

[Sbe2]

@Mousetrapbrewery a Brew Magic Video just came out in YouTube, is that what you are referring to?

I saw this video and had to revisit this thread after a few years to see if it was still active. Those Monson beers were real influential in my brewing journey.

 

[cegan09]

Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling? You decide.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling? You decide.

I have to think he was just trolling a bit and he was just adding some salts to the mash. I had to love the way-oversized plate chiller and hoses to transfer into the fermenter. There had to be a gallon or so of loss with that setup.

 

[Hopperazi]

I've got valine and l-leucine as well and mentioned them way earlier in this thread. Only tried some on one batch but didn't have the best control then and there were fusels. There is no literature out there on how to use the stuff though. Any thoughts on amounts? Worth a shot to play around with.

Did you ever figure this out? How did it turn out? Im working on my next batch and considering l-leucine.

 

[day_trippr]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if all they actually used was London III?

Cheers!

 

[Hopperazi]

Thoroughly appreciate everyone's efforts on this.

Trying to put everything that people have had success with all together, as well as a lot of other things I've read, as my countless efforts have varied dramatically from getting very close (one time) to not even remotely close, there's just no easy way to control the yeasts. Every batch has been so different. The only logical solution is to take that WB06 variable out, and blend.

My game plan is to LODO mash at 154F, 5.2pH (2-Row, Carafoam, and a touch of Vienna), (maybe do a step mash as I was very impressed with that fluffy head that someone posted a while ago) mash out 168F, add l-leucine, reduce pH to under 5 after boil (may help stress the yeast, as well as not get that twang from S04 that someone mentioned was a good solution). I also just listened to a podcast how a lower pH after the mash smooths and subdues the hop bitterness and helps create a softer rounder more crushable result. So going to try that. Then water treatment using KCL to increase the mouthfeel, 150-50 ratio. Aiming for FG of 1.016, and 4.5pH after dry hop. 40% of the hops will be whirlpooled at 170F for 20min (50% Apollo and 50% Citra). Then quickly cooled via counter flow chiller through a hop rocket with a little more (10%) Citra hops.

I'll do a semi split batch, main batch will be a pack of S04, and 0.5g of T-58 at 72F (no oxygenation, no trub), then gradually drop to 64F after I wake up the next morning (1 degree every 2 hours). The second batch will be 0.75-1 gallon in a 3.5gal keg (+ blowoff), with WB06, fermented warm (72F) to bring out as much bubble gum juicy fruit esters as I can.

I'll pitch the WB06 into the mini keg once the main batch is close to FG. Krausen the WB06 batch, Im assuming it will take 1-2 days, which will also be at the peak of ester formation, transfer into the main batch, along with dry hops (Citra T-45s and T-90s), some sugar, and 2g of CBC-1 (hopefully kill the WB06). Before I add the WB06 batch I'll do a quick 1 day crash of the main batch, harvest+dump the S04 yeast out, then raise it to 68ish before adding the mini batch, DH + CBC.

Purge when I drop the hops, and again 30min later once the pellets' have saturated and released any trapped O2. Cap my unitank to naturally carbonate, slow rise it to 70 after a day. Rouse the hops once at 24hrs, then dump the dropped hops 24-48 hours later after taste testing. Let it carbonate / condition for a week before cold crashing. May DH in the keg (more Citra and or Mosaic/Simcoe depending on taste tests, we'll see how it goes.

Does anyone see any blatantly flawed thoughts, or feedback on any of these things that have definitely not worked for them that I should consider tweaking?

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling? You decide.

Looks like anhydrous calcium chloride (bottom layer) and gypsum (top layer)

Total volume is ~2 liters

Maybe 75% anhydrous calcium chloride and 25% gypsum

1.5 liters anhydrous calcium chloride * 2.15 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm³) = 3,225 grams

0.5 liters gypsum * 2.3 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm³) = 1,150 grams

60 bbl batch size + sparge volume ~2,400 gallons

SO4: ~70
Cl: ~170
Ca: ~125

If ~2/3 anhydrous calcium chloride (2,867 grams) and ~1/3 gypsum (1,533 grams)

SO4: ~94
Cl: ~152
Ca: ~124

Take it with a grain of salt, don't @me

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Was drinking some TH last week

Azure
JJJuiceee Machine
End of the Rainbow
Haze
Julius
King JJJuliusss

All were solid, no hop burn or off-flavors

JJJuiceee Machine had a cool fruit salad flavor profile (End of the Rainbow somewhat similar)

Haze was a bit chalky/salty on the finish

Julius great tasted, like mangoes and oranges, actually preferred it to King JJJuliusss (a nice orange-bomb)

Great beers, didn't do any yeast PCRs this time

 

[Jesse Runowski]

Thoroughly appreciate everyone's efforts on this.

Trying to put everything that people have had success with all together, as well as a lot of other things I've read, as my countless efforts have varied dramatically from getting very close (one time) to not even remotely close, there's just no easy way to control the yeasts. Every batch has been so different. The only logical solution is to take that WB06 variable out, and blend.

My game plan is to LODO mash at 154F, 5.2pH (2-Row, Carafoam, and a touch of Vienna), (maybe do a step mash as I was very impressed with that fluffy head that someone posted a while ago) mash out 168F, add l-leucine, reduce pH to under 5 after boil (may help stress the yeast, as well as not get that twang from S04 that someone mentioned was a good solution). I also just listened to a podcast how a lower pH after the mash smooths and subdues the hop bitterness and helps create a softer rounder more crushable result. So going to try that. Then water treatment using KCL to increase the mouthfeel, 150-50 ratio. Aiming for FG of 1.016, and 4.5pH after dry hop. 40% of the hops will be whirlpooled at 170F for 20min (50% Apollo and 50% Citra). Then quickly cooled via counter flow chiller through a hop rocket with a little more (10%) Citra hops.

I'll do a semi split batch, main batch will be a pack of S04, and 0.5g of T-58 at 72F (no oxygenation, no trub), then gradually drop to 64F after I wake up the next morning (1 degree every 2 hours). The second batch will be 0.75-1 gallon in a 3.5gal keg (+ blowoff), with WB06, fermented warm (72F) to bring out as much bubble gum juicy fruit esters as I can.

I'll pitch the WB06 into the mini keg once the main batch is close to FG. Krausen the WB06 batch, Im assuming it will take 1-2 days, which will also be at the peak of ester formation, transfer into the main batch, along with dry hops (Citra T-45s and T-90s), some sugar, and 2g of CBC-1 (hopefully kill the WB06). Before I add the WB06 batch I'll do a quick 1 day crash of the main batch, harvest+dump the S04 yeast out, then raise it to 68ish before adding the mini batch, DH + CBC.

Purge when I drop the hops, and again 30min later once the pellets' have saturated and released any trapped O2. Cap my unitank to naturally carbonate, slow rise it to 70 after a day. Rouse the hops once at 24hrs, then dump the dropped hops 24-48 hours later after taste testing. Let it carbonate / condition for a week before cold crashing. May DH in the keg (more Citra and or Mosaic/Simcoe depending on taste tests, we'll see how it goes.

Does anyone see any blatantly flawed thoughts, or feedback on any of these things that have definitely not worked for them that I should consider tweaking?

Please share the outcome of this experiment! I've been toying with something similar, in fact just bought a packet of each of the three yeasts. I wish I had some feedback on your setup but I don't. Looks great to me, would love to see how this turns out and what works and things you would change.

 

[beervoid]

Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling? You decide.

We "don't normally use" flaked oats. Yet in the other video's at the grain storage there where bags of flaked oats

View attachment 813464

Looks like anhydrous calcium chloride (bottom layer) and gypsum (top layer)

Total volume is ~2 liters

Maybe 75% anhydrous calcium chloride and 25% gypsum

1.5 liters anhydrous calcium chloride * 2.15 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm³) = 3,225 grams

0.5 liters gypsum * 2.3 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm³) = 1,150 grams

60 bbl batch size + sparge volume ~2,400 gallons

SO4: ~70
Cl: ~170
Ca: ~125

If ~2/3 anhydrous calcium chloride (2,867 grams) and ~1/3 gypsum (1,533 grams)

SO4: ~94
Cl: ~152
Ca: ~124

Take it with a grain of salt, don't @me

Nicely spotted and converted.
I'll take it with a grain of mineral salt
So that would be for Greenish a Pale Ale, they would probably go lighter on the bigger beers.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Yeah and what does 5% Carafoam does?, nothing.. you got to have 15 if not 20% for it to have some effect, also I’m sure he uses Crystal 60 for Julius as you can see in the old Julius and even in the King and jjJ versions that deep darker reddish color. What about water profile sulfate-chloride ratio?, if ‘IPA doesn’t have to be hard’ why not share mineral additions..

Funny that you mention this -

The left is Carafoam, the right 2-Row

Might want to try >25% Carafoam on a future batch

 

[Callacave]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if all they actually used was London III?

Cheers!

Funny thing is, I don’t even like their house flavor anymore. It muddles up any hop combo they do. Can’t distinguish most of their stuff.

And the list to choose from is getting ridiculous. It’s like it’s all the same beer, but different names.

Give me HF anyday

 

[beervoid]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if all they actually used was London III?

Cheers!

107 pages in, I can't remember. was la3 ever analysed and compared?

Edit*
I searched but didnt find any analysis of LA3

 

[elgee]

Funny thing is, I don’t even like their house flavor anymore. It muddles up any hop combo they do. Can’t distinguish most of their stuff.

And the list to choose from is getting ridiculous. It’s like it’s all the same beer, but different names.

Give me HF anyday

I have the exact same problem. They all taste the same just some have more alcohol taste. Maybe my palate isn’t refined enough? I actually prefer their pale ales these days, and they cost less!

 

[pgp]

Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling?

Probably 4 to 5 grams of ascorbic acid. Everyone knows that s#!t is a game changer.

 

[troxerX]

Funny that you mention this -

View attachment 813509

The left is Carafoam, the right 2-Row

Might want to try >25% Carafoam on a future batch

Agreed, using the equipment video as reference it seems that anything around 1-3% (i.e Crystal 60 example) is done by hand, anything above that but below 30% is probably supersacks and anything in the 60% and above is based on grain silo.

As for the secret sauce it looks like a soup of white powders with probably some ascorbic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and magnesium chloride or magnesium sulfate.. the interesting observation is that it was not added to the water during prep but directly on top of the grain itself after strike. Probably emulating what’s done with big commercial batches.

I’ve also noticed that their beers last a long time in cans better than most IPAs out there so + to any stabilizing or oxygen scavenging chemistry into that sauce.. will not be surprised if some of that sauce (or a variation of that sauce) is added during brightening or at the time of packaging as well.

 

[beervoid]

Agreed, using the equipment video as reference it seems that anything around 1-3% (i.e Crystal 60 example) is done by hand, anything above that but below 30% is probably supersacks and anything in the 60% and above is based on grain silo.

As for the secret sauce it looks like a soup of white powders with probably some ascorbic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and magnesium chloride or magnesium sulfate.. the interesting observation is that it was not added to the water during prep but directly on top of the grain itself after strike. Probably emulating what’s done with big commercial batches.

I’ve also noticed that their beers last a long time in cans better than most IPAs out there so + to any stabilizing or oxygen scavenging chemistry into that sauce.. will not be surprised if some of that sauce (or a variation of that sauce) is added during brightening or at the time of packaging as well.

Nate mentions in the video they had to buy supersacks for a while when there where stocking problems.

 

[elgee]

Did anyone notice if they used a hop back in the large scale equipment tour video? I don't recall if they used on there or in the recent homebrew video?

 

[Bizkit]

Just a few of my thoughts and guesses below.

Nothing special about the water profile looks like a 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulfate. If anything it looks like less than I would expect to see in a batch that size. Especially if the are using 100% RO water.

The secret sauce he mentions i believe is pickling lime to bring the PH up probably to 5.6. I do believe they treat their IPAs like stouts in that sense.

Higher PH into fermenter would keep S-04 from getting its sour twang if they are in fact using s-04.

Also, worth noting a higher PH in the boil will create more melanoids (producing a darker color without crystal malt) potentially higher PH in Julius than other beers

Lastly, I believe the carafoam is being used in a much greater amount probably in the 20-25% range as is evident on their foam stability and glass lacing.


Happy to see this thread is still alive.

 

[Hopperazi]

Did anyone notice if they used a hop back in the large scale equipment tour video? I don't recall if they used on there or in the recent homebrew video?

No I believe he said at some point in those videos that they dry hop the same way they did when they were homebrewing, this is just a scaled up version of how they homebrewed, they take a massive hit on efficiency, utilization and loss, but he doesn't care about that stuff, its all about providing the best product and outcome as possible. That's what impresses me about Nate, money doesnt matter, its all about the absolute best quality without compromise.

 

[day_trippr]

That's what impresses me about Nate, money doesnt matter

Ok, I really do appreciate TH beers and all, but their consumer base probably does care about money, and Julius is already near $100 a case with MA sales taxes...

Cheers!

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Ok, I really do appreciate TH beers and all, but their consumer base probably does care about money, and Julius is already near $100 a case with MA sales taxes...

Cheers!

I mean 15 bucks a 4 pack is cheap. So many places I try and end up dumping the beer and wasting money. I can confidently say I have never dumped a TH beer. They are the most consistent beers out there and their price point is spot on or lower than any other brewery. To me 91 bucks for a case of Julius is below average for cost of craft beer.

 

[day_trippr]

I appreciate some folks are high-end beer drinkers who can scoff at TH pricing, but people can buy a case of very good to excellent hazies for half that price elsewhere. If corporate growth matters their pricing isn't going to help much...

Cheers!

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

I appreciate some folks are high-end beer drinkers who can scoff at TH pricing, but people can buy a case of very good to excellent hazies for half that price elsewhere. If corporate growth matters their pricing isn't going to help much...

Cheers!

Half the price? Where are you getting hazies for $7.50 a 4 pack? Serious question