Is There a Simplified Way to Understand Time/Temp Aspect of Fermenting?

[Gytaryst]

I'm not lazy or just looking for someone to hold my hand and explain stuff to me because I don't want to read it for myself. (I obviously have to read it here).

I've been brewing a little over 3 years with 25 to 30 batches done. I've read a ton of stuff during that time on fermentation. For some reason, with everything I've read and re-read, the basic underlying ideas behind it all evade me. Every time I brew a new batch I end up re-reading the same stuff I've already read a hundred times and either just copying someone else's fermentation schedule, or plugging in arbitrary times and temps on my own with no real understanding of why.

Science was my least favorite subject in school so I avoided it. That puts me behind the eight ball right off the bat. Most of the science stuff I read was written by science guys, for science guys. I can semi grasp it while I'm reading it, but most of it doesn't stick with me for long. On top of reading piles of information I don't fully understand, I have to try and determine which of it is written by people who know what they're talking about and which of it is written by people who don't know what they're talking about but like to sound like they do.

So my questions are pertaining to time and temp only. I do both primary and secondary fermentation. After reading all the debates and arguments for or against racking to secondary I decided it seems like the way to go for me.

I would also say my main concern is making the best beer I can, not speed. If a certain style would benefit from aging for 18 months vs drinking it 3 weeks after brew day, than I'd rather age it for 18 months.

So my questions: (and for the sake of brevity and clarity I'll limit these questions to pertain only to higher gravity Belgian ales that are bottle conditioned).

• How do you determine the temp for primary fermentation? In other words, what are the reasons for pitching at the low end of the temp range for that yeast and holding it at that temp vs pitching at a low temp and ramping it up to the higher range vs pitching at the high end and holding it there?
• What are the considerations for secondary fermentation as far as temperature and also time?
• And finally, the same considerations for bottle conditioning?

I know there are different things going with the yeast in all three of those stages. Primary the yeast is converting the sugar to ethanol. Secondary the yeast is cleaning up and developing flavors and esters. I know the temperature affects the flavor development. Even if I have an idea of what I want the flavor to be, I'm never sure how to chose a temperature to achieve that. And how do you determine how long it should stay in secondary? What are the considerations? And I know bottle conditioning is to create another small fermentation that will trap the CO2 and carbonate the beer, and also create esters and character.

Any help on clarifying (in non-scientific laymen terms) how and why to determine the times and temps with more purpose rather than just arbitrarily plugging in random numbers is greatly appreciated. Something over simplified that I can remember from one brew to the next.

 

[Queequeg]

If I may try and address primary fermentation.

There are several concerns 1) flavor profile, 2) undesirable fermentation bi products 3) attenuation

As a general higher temperatures will promote greater ester, actetylaldehyde and fusel alcohol production. Low temperatures will promote higher phenol production. Lower temperatures will repurpose less acethylealdehyde and less diaceytl.

Like wise in terms of time; ester and fusel production is higher at the start of fermentation and repurposing occurs later in fermentation once primary fuel sources are at lower concentrations.

There are other factors such as dissolved oxygen, pitch rate and yeast health that effect this.

Since fusel an actetylaldehyde are generally undesirable fermentation starts low, with the exact temp depending on the strains perpencity to produce the offending compounds. Temperature is the raised mid fermentation as production of new cells slow to capitalise on Esther production.

Temperature may be raised further as yeast health declines to provide more favourable conditions for the yeast to fully attenuate and repurpose undesirable compounds.

 

[Gytaryst]

If I may try and address primary fermentation.

There are several concerns 1) flavor profile, 2) undesirable fermentation bi products 3) attenuation

As a general higher temperatures will promote greater ester, actetylaldehyde and fusel alcohol production. Low temperatures will promote higher phenol production. Lower temperatures will repurpose less acethylealdehyde and less diaceytl.

Like wise in terms of time; ester and fusel production is higher at the start of fermentation and repurposing occurs later in fermentation once primary fuel sources are at lower concentrations.

There are other factors such as dissolved oxygen, pitch rate and yeast health that effect this.

Since fusel an actetylaldehyde are generally undesirable fermentation starts low, with the exact temp depending on the strains perpencity to produce the offending compounds. Temperature is the raised mid fermentation as production of new cells slow to capitalise on Esther production.

Temperature may be raised further as yeast health declines to provide more favourable conditions for the yeast to fully attenuate and repurpose undesirable compounds.

Thank you, exactly what I was looking for. I've read a lot of things that say this brewery or that brewery pitch yeast at XX degrees and let it rise to YY degrees, but it's hard to find any solid explanations as to why they use those temps, nor do they go into much detail about the timeline. Do they let it rise over a two week period, or three week... Do they start ramping up the temp immediately or do they let it sit at the lower pitch temp for awhile before starting to increease the temp?

I knew that warmer temps were a little riskier as far as the potential to produce off flavors. I wasn't exactly sure why

Anyway I don't want to just ramble on and say the same thing I've already said. When I put together a recipe to brew I always just kind of take a wild stab in the dark and randomly plug numbers into BeerSmith. I have a very minimal understanding of why I'm choosing 64 degrees instead of 65 degrees or 75 degrees. I knew nothing about brewing when I started 3 years ago, but over those years my knowledge has naturally increased thru reading, asking questions and hands on experience - except when it comes to fermentation. For some reason I don't seem to know a whole lot more about it today than I did when I started, and it's probably the aspect of home brewing I read up on the most???

For some reason it just doesn't stick

 

[Smellyglove]

It all depends on what you're after, and how your setup works. If a big brewery says they are doing this and that, it most certainly will not give you the same flavor profile fermenting at home in a bucket or carboy or such.

 

[ESBrewer]

Low temps at the beginning (in the presence of oxygen = during the aerobic growth of yeast and in the beginning of fermentation) is often thought to minimize the formation of compounds that act as precursors of ester formation and it is also thought to minimize the formation of fusel alcohols. You can let the temperature rise later to facilitate the yeast activity (chemical reactions such as fermentation, cleaning up diacetyl etc.) and to keep the yeast in solution instead of going dormant too early. Most of the esters and fusels are already produced (or their amounts are determined by the amount of precursors) and they are not going to be increased anymore by the higher temperature at this point. In real world, things can get quite complicated and some additional factors such as fermenter shape and size may affect, too. After all, the exact temperature throughout the fermentation depends on yeast and the amount of esters and fusels that is considered beneficial for the beer style in question.

Secondary fermentation temperature depends on the stage when you transfer to secondary. If the fermentation/diacetyl rest is still going on you may want to keep the temperature up for a couple of days to facilitate this. When it is done, you may want to cool down to speed up the flocculation of yeast and to slow down harmful reactions such as oxidation etc. When secondary is used, it often has a function of either dry hopping the beer or clearing it by cold crashing. The hops oils may be extracted from the hops a bit faster if the beer is not extremely cold, but it can be done in the cold as well (may take a little longer).

Bottle conditioning is yet another story. Basically the fermentation cycle will start again in the bottle if priming sugar is added, but there will be less (and sometimes maybe not at all) aerobic yeast growth because there is less oxygen and sugar than in the primary fermentation. There will usually be less yeast, too. Pressure is also going to increase during carbonation and this has somewhat similar effects on yeast as does the low temperature. The small amount of sugar also means less fermentation and less effects on the taste of the beer compared to primary fermentation. As a result, the fermentation in the bottle may take consiberably longer than in the primary and I think that you don't need to be that careful with the temperature. A little bit higher temperature may speed up the slow process, but you want to stay in the optimum range of the yeast strain. Most people carbonate ales simply at room temperature.

 

[Gytaryst]

It all depends on what you're after, and how your setup works. If a big brewery says they are doing this and that, it most certainly will not give you the same flavor profile fermenting at home in a bucket or carboy or such.

I'm not trying to copy any specific fermentation schedule or flavor profile. Right now when I put together a recipe and get to the fermentation part I'm just plugging in arbitrary random numbers for temps and times and crossing my fingers hoping it tastes okay. After 25 or 30 batches over a 3 year period I've learned a lot about brewing - but for whatever reason the fermentation thing just isn't clicking. After all this time I'm still just throwing darts blindfolded when it comes to picking a fermentation schedule.

Low temps at the beginning (in the presence of oxygen = during the aerobic growth of yeast and in the beginning of fermentation) is often thought to minimize the formation of compounds that act as precursors of ester formation and it is also thought to minimize the formation of fusel alcohols. You can let the temperature rise later to facilitate the yeast activity (chemical reactions such as fermentation, cleaning up diacetyl etc.) and to keep the yeast in solution instead of going dormant too early. Most of the esters and fusels are already produced (or their amounts are determined by the amount of precursors) and they are not going to be increased anymore by the higher temperature at this point. In real world, things can get quite complicated and some additional factors such as fermenter shape and size may affect, too. After all, the exact temperature throughout the fermentation depends on yeast and the amount of esters and fusels that is considered beneficial for the beer style in question.

Secondary fermentation temperature depends on the stage when you transfer to secondary. If the fermentation/diacetyl rest is still going on you may want to keep the temperature up for a couple of days to facilitate this. When it is done, you may want to cool down to speed up the flocculation of yeast and to slow down harmful reactions such as oxidation etc. When secondary is used, it often has a function of either dry hopping the beer or clearing it by cold crashing. The hops oils may be extracted from the hops a bit faster if the beer is not extremely cold, but it can be done in the cold as well (may take a little longer).

Bottle conditioning is yet another story. Basically the fermentation cycle will start again in the bottle if priming sugar is added, but there will be less (and sometimes maybe not at all) aerobic yeast growth because there is less oxygen and sugar than in the primary fermentation. There will usually be less yeast, too. Pressure is also going to increase during carbonation and this has somewhat similar effects on yeast as does the low temperature. The small amount of sugar also means less fermentation and less effects on the taste of the beer compared to primary fermentation. As a result, the fermentation in the bottle may take consiberably longer than in the primary and I think that you don't need to be that careful with the temperature. A little bit higher temperature may speed up the slow process, but you want to stay in the optimum range of the yeast strain. Most people carbonate ales simply at room temperature.

That makes sense. I use secondary to clear. I don't worry too much about clarity from the Mash tun to the BK or from the BK to the primary. I don't care how cloudy the beer is or if some of the trub makes it through until I get to secondary. If I'm going to keg it I use a keg for the secondary and then push it thru a 1 micron filter into the serving keg. For Belgians I like to bottle condition it unfiltered, so I use the secondary just to clear it up as much as possible.

Where I get confused is that everything you described above doesn't really take that long. Primary fermentation can be completed in 4 to 7 days. If secondary is just for clearing it up you can accomplish that in 2 or 3 days cold crashing it. And if you store it at room temp for bottle conditioning it's possible that it could be fully carbonated in as little as 3 weeks. So I'm trying to get a handle on when or why some people like to leave their beer in secondary for 3 or 4 months, or longer? It makes me wonder about the whole idea of "cellaring" some beers.

That's kind of what I'm trying to get a handle on. I know the time spent in the primary is limited because you don't want it sitting on the yeast cake for very long. But is there an advantage to keeping it in secondary for an extended period? And is there any advantage to bottle conditioning it for several months, even after carbonation is complete?

 

[mongoose33]

I like beers that are fermented toward the lower end of the range. Typically an ale will be 64 degrees. I just did an Amber at 67 degrees. I always bump up the temp for a couple days at the end of fermentation to allow the yeast to clean up some of the undesirable flavors.

The biggest reason is I keep producing good beers this way. I also think a degree or two either way isn't going to matter much. I have a SMaSH beer going right now with S-04, sitting at 64 degrees. Bubbling like mad.

I've brewed some lagers using a fast-ferment schedule. Ferment the first 50 percent of attenuation at 50 degrees, then bump up the temp 4 degrees every 12 hours to 66, let it sit there for a couple days, then back down slowly to 50. Then crash. It works pretty well. No, I didn't invent it.

I don't ever use secondary fermenters and I keg, so I can't offer meaningful suggestions on either secondaries or bottle conditioning.

 

[dmtaylor]

Here's my rules of thumb regarding fermentation temperature and time:

1) When in doubt, ferment at about 62 F. It works for almost every dang style in the universe. How long? Till it's done!

2) After the vigorous part of the fermentation is complete (usually about 3-5 days or whatever), it's always safe and probably a good idea to raise the temperature up to like 68-72 F (room temperature). This aids with cleanup of off-flavors, and especially for Belgian ales it will help keep the yeast from growing tired and settling out too soon before they're done doing their job.

And that's about it.

Secondary is always optional. If I do it, I wonder about whether fermentation is totally done yet or not. If I think it is, then I chill it down. If I think it might not be done yet, then I keep it at room temp until I'm sure.

For bottle conditioning, just like the monks, I keep it warm (room temp or even higher) for about 7-10 days until it's very well carbonated, then cellar it. When it tastes good, drink it! Sometimes that's right away, and sometimes a little time helps. Some monasteries recommend not drinking for 6-8 weeks. Others say fresh is best. Bottom line is just to try one every now and then, and when it tastes great, drink it.

 

[ESBrewer]

@Gytaryst When leaving it for months either in fermenter or in bottles further reactions may take place (especially esters and hop character may change). As dmtaylor wrote you would need to experiment and see if you like it or not. Talking about ales it is mainly done with strong high gravity beers that have high alcohol, esters ,hops and other flavor compounds. The longer the beer matures the more stuff sediments at the bottom and it becomes clearer. If you are not fine tuning the taste but just clearing, I would definitely prefer some fining(gelatin/silica gel) or filtration after 1-2wks in the secondary instead of waiting for several months. 2-3 days of cold crashing probably helps to get most of the yeast and haze away during fining and filtration, but the optimum time is probably a little bit longer, I think many breweries keep it at -1 Celsius for week or even several weeks before filtration to form maximum amount of large tannin-protein complexes that can be filtrated.

 

[madscientist451]

Everyone has different taste, the only way to dial in a time/temperature schedule (and yeast flavor profile) is to rebrew the same beer make adjustments.
What one brewer may call the perfect temperature might not be the best for you.
I'm way too lazy/busy to do a bunch of re-brews, and like to have a lot of variety so I usually follow whatever is recommended by others.

 

[chris000]

Gytaryst, I'm no dubble/triple/quadruple expert, so I cannot give you a simple/proven schedule that will work for you.
Most likely not too many can and you might be closer to do that yourself than you think.
I'm sure this is not the answer you were looking for when you described your dislike for science. You asked already all the right questions (and got good answers), but dialing it in is the tricky part. Applying science is not the same as what you learnt in school. It's way more hands on in this case, like defining parameters; e.g. time, temperature, strain, gravity etc. and setting a target (flavour) and then running a few trials. The art is to interpret and correlate the results to the variables and adjust for the next run.
The easiest way to do this, is to split your batch in half and run it side by side. For example, run two primaries with slightly different temperatures. Keep one part just 1-2C on the cool side (as a clean reference) and the other a little warmer to see how this impacts the outcome and if you like it.
Do not introduce many variables at once; since not many people can deal with "Design of Experiments". Next time, there will be no guessing (if you kept good notes) on this particular parameter and you can continue working on the next. And if you were not fully satisfied with the result you can repeat with a slight variation. While this is a bit tedious, it will take the guesswork out of it.

 

[Gytaryst]

... When it tastes good, drink it! Sometimes that's right away, and sometimes a little time helps. Some monasteries recommend not drinking for 6-8 weeks. Others say fresh is best. Bottom line is just to try one every now and then, and when it tastes great, drink it.

That's how I've been doing it. I know, (on the one hand) there is a certain amount of subjectivity and personal preferences involved. On the other hand there are competitions with BJCP Judges choosing "the best" and beer rating sites like Beer Advocate and Rate Beer. Slightly off topic but I think one of my biggest frustrations since I started home brewing has been getting feedback. Not because I want pats on the back or false praise. I know my impression of my beer is biased, (and a Bud Light drinker's impression of my beer is irrelevant).

@Gytaryst When leaving it for months either in fermenter or in bottles further reactions may take place (especially esters and hop character may change). As dmtaylor wrote you would need to experiment and see if you like it or not. Talking about ales it is mainly done with strong high gravity beers that have high alcohol, esters ,hops and other flavor compounds. The longer the beer matures the more stuff sediments at the bottom and it becomes clearer. If you are not fine tuning the taste but just clearing, I would definitely prefer some fining(gelatin/silica gel) or filtration after 1-2wks in the secondary instead of waiting for several months. 2-3 days of cold crashing probably helps to get most of the yeast and haze away during fining and filtration, but the optimum time is probably a little bit longer, I think many breweries keep it at -1 Celsius for week or even several weeks before filtration to form maximum amount of large tannin-protein complexes that can be filtrated.

I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I want to brew the same beer over again. So many beers - so little time. A person can only brew so much! (I might have to make that into a T Shirt).

Everyone has different taste, the only way to dial in a time/temperature schedule (and yeast flavor profile) is to rebrew the same beer make adjustments. What one brewer may call the perfect temperature might not be the best for you. I'm way too lazy/busy to do a bunch of re-brews, and like to have a lot of variety so I usually follow whatever is recommended by others.

I agree on "variety."

I'm not looking to necessarily brew the "perfect" beer. That would be a fool's errand. I was really looking for an easier way to get a grasp on what affects time/temp have so I don't have to re-educate myself with every brew. Maybe it's just a mental block. I don't seem to have trouble getting a grip on other aspects of brewing, but for some reason I find myself revisiting the whole fermentation process and re reading the same stuff constantly. I would like to get to the point where I can say, "I want this characteristic out of this beer, so I need to adjust my fermentation schedule like this..." Right now, like I said above, my approach to coming up with a fermentation schedule is a lot like throwing darts blindfolded.

Anyway - it's probably not even a beer thing - it's probably a learning disability in which case this is the wrong forum.

 

[bradleypariah]

I might be one of those people who don't know what they're talking about but like to sound like they do, but here's a couple cents' worth from my six-or-so years of brewing.

The consensus around here on fermentation temp seems to be:

1. Just try to stay within the temperature range suggested by the lab, but if you can't, it's probably not the end of the world.
2. Don't ferment WAY too warm. A little too warm is okay, but certain flavors (as outlined by the lab) may be produced - some possibly positive, some possibly negative.
3. If you ferment cold, diacetyl becomes more likely, which means at some point, it may behoove the brewer to raise the temp to ambient temperatures for a few days to clean up those flavors.

Beyond that, do whatever you want to get the flavor you want. Letting things sit a long time is going to impact your hop profile, though. Bitterness will diminish over time, but so will floral aroma.

A lot of yeast labs share what kinds of flavors they think will surface when you choose to ferment cold/warm, and if you have a palate that can recognize the difference between oxidation, undesirable boil times for certain adjuncts, and diacetyl, then you can easily improve your process.

If you cannot determine what flavors are coming through in your beer, you can purchase a beer "off flavor" kit, which includes small amounts of chemicals that can be created accidentally during your process. You would then buy a six pack of beer you love, taste it to calibrate your palate, then add trace amounts of these compounds to impact the flavor. When you taste something you recognize, Google what kinds of actions cause those compounds to be created, and you'll narrow down what areas of your process could use improvement.

Transferring to a secondary vessel is really only necessary if:

1. You're sensitive to yeast flavors
2. You want to harvest your yeast for another batch of beer
   
3. You are going to add new ingredients that will spark another round of fermentation

I never got really experienced at bottling. I hated bottling day, so after one year, I switched to kegging.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thank you, exactly what I was looking for. I've read a lot of things that say this brewery or that brewery pitch yeast at XX degrees and let it rise to YY degrees, but it's hard to find any solid explanations as to why they use those temps, nor do they go into much detail about the timeline. Do they let it rise over a two week period, or three week... Do they start ramping up the temp immediately or do they let it sit at the lower pitch temp for awhile before starting to increease the temp?

The reason is that in commercial environments the timeline is being dictated by the yeast - they're letting the heat of fermentation determine the temperature. Marstons have one of the bigger rises - they pitch at 14C (57F) and it free-rises to 19C (66F) after 36 hours before they move it into the Union system.

Where I get confused is that everything you described above doesn't really take that long. Primary fermentation can be completed in 4 to 7 days. If secondary is just for clearing it up you can accomplish that in 2 or 3 days cold crashing it. And if you store it at room temp for bottle conditioning it's possible that it could be fully carbonated in as little as 3 weeks. So I'm trying to get a handle on when or why some people like to leave their beer in secondary for 3 or 4 months, or longer? It makes me wonder about the whole idea of "cellaring" some beers.

That's kind of what I'm trying to get a handle on. I know the time spent in the primary is limited because you don't want it sitting on the yeast cake for very long. But is there an advantage to keeping it in secondary for an extended period? And is there any advantage to bottle conditioning it for several months, even after carbonation is complete?

This sounds like a comic-book reader getting confused by the idea of Dickens and Shakespeare because they take more than half an hour to get through. Some things just take longer, either because they are slow, or they're just a bit more subtle and complex than the things that are quick. Some yeast are plain slow - Tim Taylor's is notorious, and TT beer needs more conditioning than most - and that's before you get onto non-Saccharomyces bugs that can take months to act. But also different parts of a beer come together at different speeds, so the beer as a whole is at its best at different times. The kind of small molecule flavours you get from dry-hopping have pretty much only one way to go from the start and that's down, but bittering can take a few weeks to come together, and malts can take months or even years to knit together fully. The best time to drink a beer depends on the balance between those things - but even with something hoppy like Heady Topper, John Kimmich reckons hits its sweet spot after 10 weeks, and big Belgians can take years to reach their peak.

Then there's whole subcultures of beer like the British cask conditioning thing, which just doesn't really translate at all...

I'm not trying to copy any specific fermentation schedule or flavor profile. Right now when I put together a recipe and get to the fermentation part I'm just plugging in arbitrary random numbers for temps and times and crossing my fingers hoping it tastes okay. After 25 or 30 batches over a 3 year period I've learned a lot about brewing - but for whatever reason the fermentation thing just isn't clicking. After all this time I'm still just throwing darts blindfolded when it comes to picking a fermentation schedule.

I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I want to brew the same beer over again. So many beers - so little time. A person can only brew so much!...

I was really looking for an easier way to get a grasp on what affects time/temp have so I don't have to re-educate myself with every brew. Maybe it's just a mental block. I don't seem to have trouble getting a grip on other aspects of brewing, but for some reason I find myself revisiting the whole fermentation process and re reading the same stuff constantly. I would like to get to the point where I can say, "I want this characteristic out of this beer, so I need to adjust my fermentation schedule like this..." Right now, like I said above, my approach to coming up with a fermentation schedule is a lot like throwing darts blindfolded.

With respect, I think this is part of your problem. I'm quite happy to subordinate my drinking to my brewing education, and a large part of my brewing is brewing not the same beer over again, but similar beers testing different hops and yeast etc. But that means that the hot side is pretty similar and I can hone it. If you want to drink a big Belgian followed by a DIPA followed by a wheat beer - go to the pub or the bottle shop, and focus your brewing a bit more narrowly. That doesn't mean brewing the same beer, but if say 70% of your brewing is similar beers then you have a chance to gain the experience which means that you can make decisions without the blindfold.

 

[Gytaryst]

... The consensus around here on fermentation temp seems to be:

1. Just try to stay within the temperature range suggested by the lab, but if you can't, it's probably not the end of the world.
2. Don't ferment WAY too warm. A little too warm is okay, but certain flavors (as outlined by the lab) may be produced - some possibly positive, some possibly negative.
3. If you ferment cold, diacetyl becomes more likely, which means at some point, it may behoove the brewer to raise the temp to ambient temperatures for a few days to clean up those flavors.

Beyond that, do whatever you want to get the flavor you want. Letting things sit a long time is going to impact your hop profile, though. Bitterness will diminish over time, but so will floral aroma.

Thanks. I'm not good at articulating my questions. I understand some beers are better fresh, (hops fade), and some bigger, maltier beers might be better aged. I get all that. Here's my thought process leading up to the question I tried to ask:

Say I'm brewing a Belgian Tripel. I transfer the wort from the MLT to the BK and I'm not too overly concerned with clarity at this point. I boil it down, hit my OG dead-on, (this is a fictitious scenario), and transfer to primary. Again, I'm not majorly worried about clarity at this point. I make a half-hearted attempt to leave as much of the trub as possible behind, but I don't whirlpool or filter anything so a fair amount of goop and hop glop gets transferred. Assume that in 8 days fermentation is complete and I hit my FG . . . dead on.

That is where my question actually picks up. I've read all the debates about secondary vs no secondary so I'm not concerned about that. I've read the debates about how long it's okay to let beer sit on the trub in primary so that's not my concern either.

Skipping past those debates - it's time for me to transfer that Belgian Tripel from primary to secondary. My question was, at this point, how do I make an educated guesstimate at how long and/or at what temp I should schedule the secondary for?

I know I have a "comic book" understanding of this stuff, (or at least I've been told). I'm not asking anyone to give me a specific time or a specific temp? I'm asking about what things I should consider to determine those things on my own. Statements like, "Some beers are better fresh and some beers are better aged" are true, but not much help. And normally I would ignore nonsensical statements like "Some things just take longer, either because they are slow, or they're just a bit more subtle and complex than the things that are quick" unless the person was making that statement immediately after insulting my intelligence. Some things take longer because they're slower than things that are quicker . . . got it - even with my "comic book" mentality.

Maybe there's no answer to my question. I was just curious. If leaving a beer in secondary for 6 months is going to improve it, then I have no problem leaving it for 6 months. Some people are concerned with getting it from grain to table as fast as possible. I can understand those concerns, they're just not my concerns.

I was wondering if there's a semi-scientific method to use to decide how long a beer should sit in secondary, or in the bottle? I understand the trial and error approach, but that's basically the same as my throwing darts blindfolded approach. If a beer hits it's peak after 6 years in secondary it's a little unrealistic to wait 6 years to taste it, then tweak the recipe and try again.

That was all.

When all is said and done it sounds like the blindfolded dart throwing method is really all there is.

Thanks for the responses (and personal analysis) whichever the case may be.

 

[dmtaylor]

I stand by my tips provided previously. A few more thoughts:

There is no hard science or hard & fast rules of thumb that apply to every situation. Yeast is alive, and beer is thus a living thing as well that will change a little bit over time, and that is okay. Accept what you cannot perfect. No one is perfect. Yeast ain't perfect. Nothing is perfect.

So...

It's done when it's done. If you're not sure it's done, maybe it's not. When it tastes good, drink it. If it doesn't taste good, it is possible that age will help, however age will not make a really bad beer good. Will a good beer get even better with age? Maybe, but probably not. If bottling, you can save a couple bottles for 6 months, 9 months, a year or two or whatever, as a little educational experiment. However, you should always drink most of it young and fresh, just as soon as it tastes pretty good. Does this happen at 2 weeks? 4 weeks? 6 weeks? In my experience... it just doesn't much matter. A truly good beer will taste pretty darn good the whole time. A truly bad beer will taste pretty darn bad the whole time. So aging and timing are very minor things that really are not a big deal for the most part, unless your experience dictates otherwise after brewing the same style multiple times.

Hope this helps somewhat. Cheers.

 

[ESBrewer]

There is no simple answer really. If you want an exact schedule you can google around for some examples that you like, but even the best experts from yeast companies and Belgian style breweries say that it is a matter of taste (fermentation schedule and conditioning time) and everyone have their own opinions. Because you said that time is no problem for you, I don't see why you wouldn't experiment with the conditioning time. You could condition the bottles for 6 months and open one bottle now and then to see how it tastes. I wouldn't be too concerned about the exact time in the secondary cause Belgian beers are often conditioned in the bottle. Secondary depends on whether you want to get rid of the yeast. Many Belgian breweries add yeast (sometimes different strain) into the bottles. For this purpose you may want to drop the initial yeast carefully using a longish cold crash. If you decide to go with the yeast from the primary fermentation and the beer style is hazy you may proceed sooner. Anyway, if there is trub or hops in the secondary, I would probably let it stand for a minimum of week or two so that they have time to sediment together with some yeast. It doesn't go bad when it sits there for a couple of weeks unless you let oxygen in.

 

[Gytaryst]

There is no hard science or hard & fast rules of thumb that apply to every situation.

Here's what prompted my question: I've been using BeerSmith II for awhile. Every time I open it up to put together a new recipe I can tweak this or that, adjust the numbers in my equipment profile, hone in on the mash schedule, etc. When I get to the fermentation tab, it's always just a guess. I would suggest that there has to be "hard science" governing it. I would think fermenting at low temp for a short period of time is always going to affect the beer in a similar way and fermenting at a warmer temp for a long period of time is always going to have similar affects. While I'm sure there are probably thousands of unknowns that go into every situation to determine how yeast reacts, they are, at the end of the day, "unknowns" (capable of being known eventually).

So my question really came about because I never know how to adjust the fermentation schedule other than just guessing at temps to input and guessing at times to input.

Yeast is alive, and beer is thus a living thing as well that will change a little bit over time, and that is okay. Accept what you cannot perfect. No one is perfect. Yeast ain't perfect. Nothing is perfect.

True dat. I remember reading that just because WLP500 might have been collected from Chimay 20 years ago - Chimay's yeast has most likely undergone changes since then. So I suppose in that respect there is a certain amount of unpredictability involved.

I also read somewhere someone saying something like, "A stout doesn't even begin to come in to it's own for at least four months." (paraphrased from a bad memory). I have no idea if that's true or not. I've heard lots of people say an IPA should be drank within three months. That's just two overarching styles and I understand it's all EXTREMELY subjective. Supposing both of those statements are somewhat true, that could be considered a "hard & fast rule."

... When it tastes good, drink it.

That's how I do it. Given the emphasis on science throughout the rest of the brewing process, I felt like I was missing something at the end just crossing my fingers and guessing . . . but apparently I'm doing it the way everyone else does. Thanks for responding. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just overthink everything too much.

It's not you . . . it's me.

CHEERS!

There is no simple answer really. If you want an exact schedule you can google around for some examples that you like, but even the best experts from yeast companies and Belgian style breweries say that it is a matter of taste (fermentation schedule and conditioning time) and everyone have their own opinions.

Which translated means the entire BJCP, every beer competition, and every beer review ever given... anywhere... are an irrelevant waste of time.

"Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour - teach him to brew and he'll waste a lifetime."

It's all beginning to come together now.

 

[bradleypariah]

I was wondering if there's a semi-scientific method to use to decide how long a beer should sit in secondary, or in the bottle?

I would think fermenting at low temp for a short period of time is always going to affect the beer in a similar way and fermenting at a warmer temp for a long period of time is always going to have similar affects.

Well, like I said, the lab that makes the yeast is going to tell you things like:

1. Ferment too cold, and you'll acquire flavor compounds a, b, and c
2. Ferment in the range we told you to, and your malt (or hops, depending on the strain of yeast) will accentuate such & such
   
3. Ferment too hot, and you'll acquire flavor compounds x, y, and z

That's where you get your head start. I don't think you have a comic book understanding; it sounds like you want a laboratory explanation, but I just don't have that. I personally just read the page for that yeast strain on the lab's website every time. If you're wondering how long you should ferment at cold/suggested/hot temperatures, that would be completely based on the flavor you were wanting to achieve. Check out this conversation here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/dark-beer-question.644030/#post-8201355

The person was basically asking the same thing, and my response therein received several "thumbs ups", so no point in repeating it word for word.

After reading that, come back here and apply everyone's advice about yeast. Our own ingredients change over time in a reliable way (as far as aroma and bitterness), and malt has a tendency to eventually turn back into its original sweet state, so aging a beer is really just a matter of calculating an intersect point on a line graph. Where does your desired aroma drop to meet the mellowed bitterness where your malt starts coming forward to the point you want it? That's when your beer is done - when you like it. You can attune which malt characteristics surface the strongest/earliest by consulting the lab's outline of the yeast.

The pros in the breweries that I have talked to are just tasting the beer to know when it's ready, and they are honestly winging it a whole lot like we are. They dump dozens of barrels when they get it wrong and it hurts them terribly. If they can afford to lose the storage space, they just keep waiting. The whole process is very unpredictable like @dmtaylor said. Once a brewery has nailed a recipe a few times in a row, THAT's how they know how long things take, and what temp was best. Experience. I applaud you for not wanting to shoot in the dark like that, but I wouldn't be ashamed of that approach. I would never weigh a sauce to know much salt it needs. You taste it, and give it what it needs. We're all cooking here.

Read up on the strain you're using, and then just use your palate from there. If a certain flavor needs to come out, and you're not too late in the process, adjust your temp according to the yeast lab's suggestion, and wait for the flavor to happen. Just be aware that your hops may not wait around, and that's why some people tend to dry hop very late into secondary, to bring back other flavors that were lost.

I hope I'm helping. I have friends that work for big breweries, but I am by no means at their level. I am explaining it as best as I personally understand.

 

[dmtaylor]

Which translated means the entire BJCP, every beer competition, and every beer review ever given... anywhere... are an irrelevant waste of time.

BJCP guidelines are somewhat helpful, but are still just collections of a few people's opinions.

BJCP competitions are largely crapshoots. HOWEVER, those few people who consistently win a ton of awards (like my friend Jeff Landers! -- http://midwesthomebrewer.com/Standings.aspx) have got to be doing something right!!

These things are all inputs, which should be absorbed with grains of salt. Everything is a bit subjective, it's true. However, real truth is not far behind either in most cases.

Cheers.

 

[eric19312]

These are some long worded questions and answers.

Honestly yes fermentation makes a difference and there are a bunch of factors that are specific to your brewing techniques and equipment that will impact fermentation.

Your best bet is to follow a tried and true profile and take good notes about what you did and how it came out.

Then adjust and brew again.

There is really no way you can exactly follow a fermentation process written by someone else. You would need to match gravity and wort fermentability. You would need to match wort volume and pitching rate of viable yeast. You likely need to match fermentor geometry, material and depth. You need to match temperature profile and be specific about what you mean...temp at wall of fermentor, in thermowell, or ambient. Need to consider pressure in fermentor too which can depend on airlock type, etc. Nobody online or in books gives you sufficient information to exactly match what they did. But you can if you don’t change your system / process and take careful notes.

Edited to add oxygenation to list of things to control. Specifically either controlling for measured ppm O2 at start or controlled by O2 method including flow rate and type of O2 stone.

Also control for yeast vitality, age, generation etc.

 

[Gytaryst]

These are some long worded questions and answers.

Yeah. I'm mostly just rambling now - partly because most of the responses seem to be ever so slightly off target from what I was asking, and I keep thinking if I just add more words that will make everything clearer.

I asked this question yesterday morning or the day before, and to be honest I didn't think it would become this involved.

If you want a dry well attenuated beer you set your mash to low temp for a long time. If you want a sweeter fuller beer you mash at a higher temp for a shorter time. Just to be clear - I completely understand that is a broad, overly simplistic, guideline and not a carved in stone rule. I completely understand that there are exceptions to every rule, that not everyone likes dry beer, that what may be dry to one person is not dry to another person, and on and on. BUT!!! When I'm putting together a beer in BeerSmith II, that is a rule I can kind of, sort of, in a subjective sense, without betting the farm... follow, albeit follow from a distance, as I decide how I want my beer to turn out.

I was quite simply wondering if there was any kind of overly simplified, one-size-DOES-NOT-fit-all, kind of guideline like that to follow when it comes to the fermentation schedule.

But no worries. It's just beer. I don't take any of it too seriously. I'll keep guessing at fermentation schedules and reading and EVENTUALLY . . . I'll die and it won't matter to me.

 

[bradleypariah]

But no worries. It's just beer. I don't take any of it too seriously. I'll keep guessing at fermentation schedules and reading and EVENTUALLY . . . I'll die and it won't matter to me.

HAHAHA!

 

[ncbrewer]

I understand you've been doing a lot of reading, but have you read the Yeast book by White and Zainasheff? There's a lot of practical info that doesn't get deep into chemistry.

 

[Gytaryst]

I understand you've been doing a lot of reading, but have you read the Yeast book by White and Zainasheff? There's a lot of practical info that doesn't get deep into chemistry.

No. I wanted to get the four books in that series, (I guess it's a series). My wife got me Water by Palmer & Kaminski a couple years ago and that's as far as I got that.