is lallemand diamond lager the same as fermentis 34/70

[fluketamer]

i just saw a post on a european board that says that lallemand diamond lager is the same as fermentis 34/70

are they the same yeast or are they genetically similar or related or decended from the same strains. i dont get it

on here i see people getting much different results with these 2 yeasts so they cant be the same right?

thanks

 

[VikeMan]

It's possible. I think Denny Conn is more or less convinced, based on tidbits he picked up from talking with a microbiologist at Lallemand. Without genetic testing, who (other than the manufacturers/yeast bank) can say? If they are the same, the "much different results" could be due to natural variation, the lack of direct A/B comparison, wishful thinking, or even differences in drying processes betweem Lallemand and Fermentis.

 

[dmtaylor]

They're closely related, but not the same. Average apparent attenuation with the Fermentis W-34/70 is approximately 74%, whereas with the Diamond it is closer to 81%. Other performance and flavor characteristics are similar. The attenuation differences can actually be a useful parameter to help you select the one that you think you might prefer for the particular batch that you are brewing.

 

[VikeMan]

They're closely related, but not the same. Average apparent attenuation with the Fermentis W-34/70 is approximately 74%, whereas with the Diamond it is closer to 81%.

Do you know this from genetic testing or just based on experience with attenuation? If the latter, I'll reiterate the possibility of differences in drying processes that could affect yeast performance. Also, not to get too off track, but 74% and 81% with what wort? i.e. they would have to be the same wort to make a comparison of apparent attenuation meaningful.

 

[mac_1103]

Average apparent attenuation with the Fermentis W-34/70 is approximately 74%, whereas with the Diamond it is closer to 81%.

I thought it was the other way around?

 

[dmtaylor]

Do you know this from genetic testing or just based on experience with attenuation? If the latter, I'll reiterate the possibility of differences in drying processes that could affect yeast performance. Also, not to get too off track, but 74% and 81% with what wort? i.e. they would have to be the same wort to make a comparison of apparent attenuation meaningful.

I am not aware of any genetic testing results for Diamond yet.

Differences in manufacturing could indeed result in performance differences.

I have used both yeasts multiple times with different worts, most were American light lagers without huge differences in grist or mash process. I welcome any contrary evidence from those who have experimented side by side with both yeasts. Otherwise my experience is as valid as anything else I have seen.

 

[bellhp]

I have no experience with Diamond, only 34/70.
Does Diamond have similar temperature tolerances?

 

[dmtaylor]

I have no experience with Diamond, only 34/70.
Does Diamond have similar temperature tolerances?

I fermented my last batch with Diamond at 66 F. Turned out great. I would say yes, it's tolerant of reasonably warm temperatures. I haven't gone much higher than that, but wouldn't be afraid to try one at about 70 F.

 

[bellhp]

Thanks Dave , I have two room temp lagers (72ish?) going right now with 34/70 . I really have no need to switch at the moment , I was just curious .

 

[Draft Master Flash]

I believe Lallemand is just plain better comparing similarities to all their yeast. I think Fermentis especially in the last few years has gone downhill and I will be fading out using Fermentis completely. Some of the undesirable odd flavors I've gotten from using various Fermentis dry yeast I've never gotten from Lallemand. Maybe Fermentis suffered more from the pandemic or for whatever reason.......


DMF

 

[shetc]

Someone could contact Denny directly to find out why he prefers Diamond.

Meanwhile, W34/70 and Diamond appear to be basically the same:

 

[mac_1103]

I believe Lallemand is just plain better comparing similarities to all their yeast. I think Fermentis especially in the last few years has gone downhill and I will be fading out using Fermentis completely. Some of the undesirable odd flavors I've gotten from using various Fermentis dry yeast I've never gotten from Lallemand. Maybe Fermentis suffered more from the pandemic or for whatever reason.......

You can believe what you want, and I won't discount your experiences but maybe yo shouldn't discount others' either. I've used plenty of Fermentis' yeasts recently with no undesirable odd flavors at all. So have lots of other people. So maybe we sholud just stick to the topic at hand and talk about these two yeasts specifically.

 

[shetc]

I bet there would not be a significant difference found between Diamond and 34/70 in a triangle test.

 

[fluketamer]

thanks guys so much. ive been doing side by sides with diamond at 56 and 68 and really find it hard to tell the difference after a few weeks in the keg. i like the idea of not needing a dedicated ferm chamber in the 50's when i brew my lagers. so i was thinking of trying 34/70 because of all the good reviews at 68 and above . i think i will stick to diamond unless i cant get it . i was thinking my warm lagers might be lacking something that 34/70 delivers but now im having second thoughts. and will stick to diamond

btw diamond is giving me amazing hop expression at both temps

thanks
.
edit s23 sucks compared to diamond i was a strict s23 guy until i couldnt get it and diamond was all they had at lhbs. ill never go back.

i used to sometimes get weird banana esters at low and hier temps. with s23

im sure it is a good yeast but imo not as forgiving as diamond.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

In our experience, the Diamond yeast is superior. And we have used both yeasts many times, Diamond and W-34/70.
Had it not been for Denny making the suggestion to me, I never would have tried it.
A big thanks to Denny!

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Next time you brew split the batch and try each yeast side by side.

I prefer Diamond also, but unless you are comparing side by side 34/70 is a good lager yeast.

 

[moreb33rplz]

I've used both many times and they seem pretty dang similar. Diamond is cheaper for me these days so I use it most

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Next time you brew split the batch and try each yeast side by side.

I prefer Diamond also, but unless you are comparing side by side 34/70 is a good lager yeast.

Sort of like driving a Chevy Impala. It's fine...until you drive a C8 Corvette! The Impala and the Corvette both get you there. But the sports car is an experience.

 

[Protos]

In my experience, Saflager W34/70 and Lalbrew Diamond are the same yeast. Same flavour, same tartness, same blandness, same fermentation dynamics, and very similar level of attenuation.

MJ M76 Bavarian Lager is different and superior to both (despite it's often being said to be just a repacked Diamond, which it's apparently not).

 

[Sammy86]

I know I'm entering the party late but wanted to add my own anecdotal evidence.

I was an exclusive 34/70 guy for my lagers until my last batch. I completely agree that Diamond expresses the flavors of the malt and hops better.

My German Pils was absolutely fantastic and will not be switching back.

 

[uweschmitt]

@dmtaylor your spreadsheet claims that Diamond lager is not W34/70. The first scientific resource mentioned is Genomic diversity and global distribution of Saccharomyces eubayanus, the wild ancestor of hybrid lager-brewing yeasts but when I read over it I could not find any reference to any of the two yeasts. Actually no pastorius strain at all. I also checked the supplementary material. The other resource An updated brewing yeast family tree | Suregork Loves Beer includes no lager strains as far as I can see.

I'd appreciate a comment on this. Not sure if I misunderstood sth in the spreadsheet.

 

[dmtaylor]

@dmtaylor your spreadsheet claims that Diamond lager is not W34/70. The first scientific resource mentioned is Genomic diversity and global distribution of Saccharomyces eubayanus, the wild ancestor of hybrid lager-brewing yeasts but when I read over it I could not find any reference to any of the two yeasts. Actually no pastorius strain at all. I also checked the supplementary material. The other resource An updated brewing yeast family tree | Suregork Loves Beer includes no lager strains as far as I can see.

I'd appreciate a comment on this. Not sure if I misunderstood sth in the spreadsheet.

Diamond has not been genomically tested yet as far as I know. My placement there with Wyeast 2308 (which is NOT W-34/70) is an educated guess. The "NOT W-34/70" is based on genomic testing versus the 2308, not the Diamond. Source is Suregork at Brewing yeast family tree (Oct 2019 update) | Suregork Loves Beer. To be honest, I'm not sure which source he got it from, might not be Langdon as I'd originally attributed. I'll try to put more effort into this when I have a chance (won't be today). Thanks for the questions.

 

[uweschmitt]

Diamond has not been genomically tested yet as far as I know. My placement there with Wyeast 2308 (which is NOT W-34/70) is an educated guess. The "NOT W-34/70" is based on genomic testing versus the 2308, not the Diamond. Source is Suregork at Brewing yeast family tree (Oct 2019 update) | Suregork Loves Beer. To be honest, I'm not sure which source he got it from, might not be Langdon as I'd originally attributed. I'll try to put more effort into this when I have a chance (won't be today). Thanks for the questions.

Thanks for the reply. I came back to sheet several times in the past and appreciate your efforts.